Is Catholicism the Oldest Christian Faith?
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Not talking about his ruling from the chair of Peter. What I am referring to is his general office as the Vicar of Christ . In the catechism of the Catholic Church sections 891 and 892 states that the popes authority as Christ’s representative on earth that his general teaching on existing dogma is authoritative. Ex cathedra generally regards new teaching . Also what is or isn’t ex cathedra is something that has a bit of haze to it .
It was made a dogma of the Catholic Church in 1870 but the RCC has given examples of this authority all the way back to the 2nd century. Meaning they can pick and choose what popes have said as dogma or just interpretation. This really hasn’t been a problem for Catholics until now . Most popes in history have been quite the conservative type until Francis. The general Catholic apologist now has to present the idea that whatever Francis said not ex cathedra and has no weight yet in their own catechism states that the pope’s general teaching has authority concerning existing Catholic dogma or doctrine.
Blessings
Bill
It was made a dogma of the Catholic Church in 1870 but the RCC has given examples of this authority all the way back to the 2nd century. Meaning they can pick and choose what popes have said as dogma or just interpretation. This really hasn’t been a problem for Catholics until now . Most popes in history have been quite the conservative type until Francis. The general Catholic apologist now has to present the idea that whatever Francis said not ex cathedra and has no weight yet in their own catechism states that the pope’s general teaching has authority concerning existing Catholic dogma or doctrine.
Blessings
Bill
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We know according to the witness of the Holy Spirit that works in us and prayer towards our father in heaven after one manner called faith the unseen eternal. .called "this manner" .Not manners [plural ) and we do not hallow or venerate men seen the temporal.
Only God knows what we need before we ask and prepares our heart for the unseen work he has in store for those who trust His teaching ministry . Using vain repetitions (Hail Mary the only one full of grace) after a queen in heaven will not reach our father in heaven throne room
Matthew 6:7-9 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Peter is not our father in heaven .We are to call no man on earth our spiritual father.
Ex cathedral is simply another way of claiming to be a daysman giving mankind the power to lord it over the non venerable as a another Devine authority other than the one manner of our Holy Father in heaven . . it applies with kings princes and fathers . Men who refuse to hear all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) and therefore do whatsoever their own mouth says as oral traditions
God is not a man and neither is there any daysman Pope that stands between our Holy Father not seen and corrupted mankind seen as a infallible cathedral idea.
Christians hallow or venerate God who is Spirit not corruptible mankind .
Job 9: 32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. (God not seen and man seen)
Only God knows what we need before we ask and prepares our heart for the unseen work he has in store for those who trust His teaching ministry . Using vain repetitions (Hail Mary the only one full of grace) after a queen in heaven will not reach our father in heaven throne room
Matthew 6:7-9 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Peter is not our father in heaven .We are to call no man on earth our spiritual father.
Ex cathedral is simply another way of claiming to be a daysman giving mankind the power to lord it over the non venerable as a another Devine authority other than the one manner of our Holy Father in heaven . . it applies with kings princes and fathers . Men who refuse to hear all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) and therefore do whatsoever their own mouth says as oral traditions
God is not a man and neither is there any daysman Pope that stands between our Holy Father not seen and corrupted mankind seen as a infallible cathedral idea.
Christians hallow or venerate God who is Spirit not corruptible mankind .
Job 9: 32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. (God not seen and man seen)
lol....not to mention he gave evil a voice that could reach Jesus' ears shortly after speaking from the chair.
It was spoken from the Chair because Jesus presented a need to declare a truth of the faith.
Historically the Catholic Church declares a dogma because it requires preservation from some threat. Alot of people think that when something is declared dogma that it wasn't believed before that time.
It was spoken from the Chair because Jesus presented a need to declare a truth of the faith.
Historically the Catholic Church declares a dogma because it requires preservation from some threat. Alot of people think that when something is declared dogma that it wasn't believed before that time.
Like that of Pope Formosa's???? Catholiscim is still passing around dead body parts to be hallowed or venerated. . When will that sufferings as a wonder end ?
The Cadaver Synod (also called the Cadaver Trial; Latin: Synodus Horrenda) is the name commonly given to the posthumous ecclesiastical trial of Pope Formosus, who himself had been deceased for about 7 months, in the Basilica of St. ... He accused Formosus of perjury and of having acceded to the papacy illegally
The Cadaver Synod (also called the Cadaver Trial; Latin: Synodus Horrenda) is the name commonly given to the posthumous ecclesiastical trial of Pope Formosus, who himself had been deceased for about 7 months, in the Basilica of St. ... He accused Formosus of perjury and of having acceded to the papacy illegally
Wrong. Christians worship the one true God who is Triune. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Once again, you quote a verse and completely miss the point.
Job 9:32–35 ESV
32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him,
that we should come to trial together.
33 There is no arbiter between us,
who might lay his hand on us both.
34 Let him take his rod away from me,
and let not dread of him terrify me.
35 Then I would speak without fear of him,
for I am not so in myself.
This passage is longing for the Mediator to interceed for us, Christ Jesus. Cf Rom 8:24, Heb 9:24
Job realizes his problem is deeper than what a few religious actions can fix like his friends suggest. Job realizes he doesn't have anyway to make things right. The illustration used in the book is that of a courtroom. Verse 32 is the realization of Job that he doesn'tr even have the capacity to initiate proceedings or even answer them. Only God himself can and later does jut that in the NT.
Once again, you quote a verse and completely miss the point.
Job 9:32–35 ESV
32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him,
that we should come to trial together.
33 There is no arbiter between us,
who might lay his hand on us both.
34 Let him take his rod away from me,
and let not dread of him terrify me.
35 Then I would speak without fear of him,
for I am not so in myself.
This passage is longing for the Mediator to interceed for us, Christ Jesus. Cf Rom 8:24, Heb 9:24
Job realizes his problem is deeper than what a few religious actions can fix like his friends suggest. Job realizes he doesn't have anyway to make things right. The illustration used in the book is that of a courtroom. Verse 32 is the realization of Job that he doesn'tr even have the capacity to initiate proceedings or even answer them. Only God himself can and later does jut that in the NT.
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We should be careful how we hear or say we hear the will of our unseen Holy father in heaven .He warns us in 1 john2:27-28 of those who say we do need a man to teach us therefore usurping his promise that he would teach us and bring to our new born again mind that which he has taught us. Christ in us the hope of His glory.
The Son of man Jesus the apostle is a mediator speaking the word the father puts on his lips. But not a daysman a fleshly umpire (Pope)that infallibly call balls and strikes siting between God our heavenly father not seen and mankind seen.
We learn from the unseen Holy Father, Holy See then we can come to our brother in the lord Jesus, the Son of man .
One Good Master in heaven. We are to call no man on earth Good Master as the infallible teacher .Even Jesus refused to be called Good Master as a daysman/ Pope. He said one is our Good master God, .not man.
John 6: 45 It is written in the prophets,(sola scriptura) And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Matthew 23:8-10 King James Version (KJV) But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
The Son of man Jesus the apostle is a mediator speaking the word the father puts on his lips. But not a daysman a fleshly umpire (Pope)that infallibly call balls and strikes siting between God our heavenly father not seen and mankind seen.
We learn from the unseen Holy Father, Holy See then we can come to our brother in the lord Jesus, the Son of man .
One Good Master in heaven. We are to call no man on earth Good Master as the infallible teacher .Even Jesus refused to be called Good Master as a daysman/ Pope. He said one is our Good master God, .not man.
John 6: 45 It is written in the prophets,(sola scriptura) And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Matthew 23:8-10 King James Version (KJV) But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Wrong. Christians worship the one true God who is Triune. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Once again, you quote a verse and completely miss the point.
Job 9:32–35 ESV
32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him,
that we should come to trial together.
33 There is no arbiter between us,
who might lay his hand on us both.
34 Let him take his rod away from me,
and let not dread of him terrify me.
35 Then I would speak without fear of him,
for I am not so in myself.
This passage is longing for the
Wrong again. Lets put those verses back into context. What could John be talking about? John will probably tell us at the beginning of the chapter. Funny enough, it fits in nicely to what Job 9:32-25 was longing for.
1 John 2:1-6
2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
cf Rom 3:22-26
So by denying the above that person is anti-christ. also consider the cf Rom 8:24s 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 4 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus
.
Further we read:
1 Jn 2:18–29
Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.
26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
So its not a recommendation to home brew your own doctrine afterall.
Once again, you quote a verse and completely miss the point.
Job 9:32–35 ESV
32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him,
that we should come to trial together.
33 There is no arbiter between us,
who might lay his hand on us both.
34 Let him take his rod away from me,
and let not dread of him terrify me.
35 Then I would speak without fear of him,
for I am not so in myself.
This passage is longing for the
Wrong again. Lets put those verses back into context. What could John be talking about? John will probably tell us at the beginning of the chapter. Funny enough, it fits in nicely to what Job 9:32-25 was longing for.
1 John 2:1-6
2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
cf Rom 3:22-26
So by denying the above that person is anti-christ. also consider the cf Rom 8:24s 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 4 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus
.
Further we read:
1 Jn 2:18–29
Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.
26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
So its not a recommendation to home brew your own doctrine afterall.
I have looked at the ancient history of your denominations brew. It leaves our Holy Father in heaven out of the gospel message and gives it to fathers on earth. Not my kind of lord it over the non venerable pew sitters brew.
Once again, you quote a verse and completely miss the point. First and foremost "God is not a man" Then we can address the private interpretation of your legion of fathers who you must seek the approval of.
My home brew is brewed under the loving living commandment to study in order to seek the approval of our unseen Holy Father Holy See. .Not a opinion of the fathers but the very law of men. Christians seek the approval of their heavenly father the very words of God (soal scriptura) that works in Christian to both will and perform His good pleasure .
The commandment 2 Timothy 2:15 that you are not permitted seeing you must seek the approval of the legion of workers with a familiar spirits that you must call fathers as patron self appointed saints/
And I did not say He is not the propitiation for our sins according to the demonstration of the unseen Holy Father working together with the Son of man the apostle Jesus seen.
I say those who have ben born again have received the fulness of grace that comes from the Father and son's labor of love also called a work of their one faith .They together form the peace of God that surpasses our understanding giving our father in heavens understand ng. . .and not Peter the denier, our brother in the lord. or Mary our sister in the Lord Not revealed by flesh and blood.
Remember its Catholiscim that must make the fullness of Christ's grace to no effect. Teaching this Mary entity you call queen of heaven as the only one that has received the fulness of God's grace all other receives a remnant as a unknown so that can wonder wonder and never to come to the end of their faith .
How long must one suffer for their own sin after they die in a place called purgatory. seeing you must seek after a law of the fathers (oral tradition of men) as disembodied workers with a familiar spirits. . Again that the fathers insist on. . . The self appointed saints called patron saints.(3500 gods and rising)
As long as lying wonders that will never come to a end???? wonder wonder wonder? doubt, doubt, doubt.? no faith (sola scriptura as it is written )
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Once again, you quote a verse and completely miss the point. First and foremost "God is not a man" Then we can address the private interpretation of your legion of fathers who you must seek the approval of.
My home brew is brewed under the loving living commandment to study in order to seek the approval of our unseen Holy Father Holy See. .Not a opinion of the fathers but the very law of men. Christians seek the approval of their heavenly father the very words of God (soal scriptura) that works in Christian to both will and perform His good pleasure .
The commandment 2 Timothy 2:15 that you are not permitted seeing you must seek the approval of the legion of workers with a familiar spirits that you must call fathers as patron self appointed saints/
And I did not say He is not the propitiation for our sins according to the demonstration of the unseen Holy Father working together with the Son of man the apostle Jesus seen.
I say those who have ben born again have received the fulness of grace that comes from the Father and son's labor of love also called a work of their one faith .They together form the peace of God that surpasses our understanding giving our father in heavens understand ng. . .and not Peter the denier, our brother in the lord. or Mary our sister in the Lord Not revealed by flesh and blood.
Remember its Catholiscim that must make the fullness of Christ's grace to no effect. Teaching this Mary entity you call queen of heaven as the only one that has received the fulness of God's grace all other receives a remnant as a unknown so that can wonder wonder and never to come to the end of their faith .
How long must one suffer for their own sin after they die in a place called purgatory. seeing you must seek after a law of the fathers (oral tradition of men) as disembodied workers with a familiar spirits. . Again that the fathers insist on. . . The self appointed saints called patron saints.(3500 gods and rising)
As long as lying wonders that will never come to a end???? wonder wonder wonder? doubt, doubt, doubt.? no faith (sola scriptura as it is written )
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Yeah, I didn't think you would have an answer. You cannot handle any book in the NT straight through without stepping on a rake. Many times over. You assume Unitarianism and then attempt to strip mine the Scriptures for proof texts which fails terribly each time.
Btw, I am not Roman Catholic, so I don't know why you keep bringing that up.
So you looked over all the denominations and their history and, wait, where have I heard this story before?
Btw, I am not Roman Catholic, so I don't know why you keep bringing that up.
So you looked over all the denominations and their history and, wait, where have I heard this story before?
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You will have to take that up with Jesus and Moses. They both know that the chair is Divine Authority on earth. Don't allow your mind to believe that what the c%t
When a matter of faith or morals is declared by the Pope to be a doctrine that must be believed. The doctrines have always been believed but for whatever ressons, usually it is being distorted or denied and to guard it from abuse it is clarified and made a dogma.
When a matter of faith or morals is declared by the Pope to be a doctrine that must be believed. The doctrines have always been believed but for whatever ressons, usually it is being distorted or denied and to guard it from abuse it is clarified and made a dogma.
Quote
The First Vatican Council in 1869-70, in its Pastor Aeternus decree, declared that the pope was infallible when he spoke “ex Cathedra” – or from the papal throne – on matters of faith and morals.
End quote.
Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Catholic teach pope is infallible
Bible teach gospel is infallible
So catholic teaching is different from bible teaching.
No body able to believe catholic teaching and bible teaching in the same time.
One must chose catholic or bible
The First Vatican Council in 1869-70, in its Pastor Aeternus decree, declared that the pope was infallible when he spoke “ex Cathedra” – or from the papal throne – on matters of faith and morals.
End quote.
Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Catholic teach pope is infallible
Bible teach gospel is infallible
So catholic teaching is different from bible teaching.
No body able to believe catholic teaching and bible teaching in the same time.
One must chose catholic or bible
Denial of Sola Scriptura. Acceptance of Sola ecclessia .
This is the heart of the matter. All the RCC distinctives are secondary. I have locked horns with many a RCC apologist in my time and they aren’t wrong to point to authority as the primary issue. As a confessional Protestant Anglican my sole infallible source of faith and practice are the God-breathed Scriptures. That’s what the word inspired means.
2 Timothy 3:16–17 (ESV): 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Rome elevates an unwritten tradition to the level of infallibility in addition to Scripture. And there is the problem. As an Anglican I don’t deny tradition. Rather I deny that tradition is God Breathed. θεόπνευστος. Rome then has the problem of determining what tradition is θεόπνευστος and what is not. Which makes the Church functionally the sole source of doctrine and faith. And that friend is the real problem. Everything else we find objectionable flows from this error. It is also the error that liberal Protestantism suffers from. Meaning they too deny the doctrine of Sola Scriptura but have no other means to anchor them in the Faith.
This is the heart of the matter. All the RCC distinctives are secondary. I have locked horns with many a RCC apologist in my time and they aren’t wrong to point to authority as the primary issue. As a confessional Protestant Anglican my sole infallible source of faith and practice are the God-breathed Scriptures. That’s what the word inspired means.
2 Timothy 3:16–17 (ESV): 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Rome elevates an unwritten tradition to the level of infallibility in addition to Scripture. And there is the problem. As an Anglican I don’t deny tradition. Rather I deny that tradition is God Breathed. θεόπνευστος. Rome then has the problem of determining what tradition is θεόπνευστος and what is not. Which makes the Church functionally the sole source of doctrine and faith. And that friend is the real problem. Everything else we find objectionable flows from this error. It is also the error that liberal Protestantism suffers from. Meaning they too deny the doctrine of Sola Scriptura but have no other means to anchor them in the Faith.