Is faith a reliable way to know truth?

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wanderer6059

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Oct 27, 2013
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No, only that christians believed in the resurrection.
Publius Cornelius Tacitus was a senator and a historian of the Roman Empire not a christian and he said that...

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he ... wrought surprising feats.... He was the Christ. When Pilate ...condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared ... restored to life.... And the tribe of Christians ... has ... not disappeared.

Josephus, and he was a jew...
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Publius Cornelius Tacitus was a senator and a historian of the Roman Empire not a christian and he said that...

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he ... wrought surprising feats.... He was the Christ. When Pilate ...condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared ... restored to life.... And the tribe of Christians ... has ... not disappeared.

Josephus, and he was a jew...
This part of Josephus is disputed as being a later addition...
 
Jun 4, 2018
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About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he ... wrought surprising feats.... He was the Christ. When Pilate ...condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared ... restored to life.... And the tribe of Christians ... has ... not disappeared.[17]

Josephus, he was a jew...
From https://carm.org/regarding-quotes-historian-josephus-about-jesus (A Christian website):

The problem with the copies of Antiquities is that they appear to have been rewritten in favor of Jesus and some say too favorable to have been written by a Jew. Add to this that the Christians were the ones who kept and made the copies of the Josephus documents throughout history and you have a shadow of doubt cast upon the quotes.

However, all is not lost. First of all, there is no proof that such insertions into the text were ever made. They may be authentic. The "Testimonium" is found in every copy of Josephus in existence. Second, Josephus mentions many other biblically-relevant occurrences that are not in dispute (see outline below). This adds validity to the claim that Josephus knew about Jesus and wrote about Him since he also wrote about other New Testament things. Nevertheless, though there may be some Christian insertions into the text, we can still reconstruct what may have been the original writing.

Two researchers (Edwin Yamauchi and John P. Meier)1 have constructed a copy of the "Testimonium" with the probable insertions in brackets and underlined. The following paragraph is Yamauchi's:

“About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man [if indeed one ought to call him a man.] For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. [He was the Christ.] When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. [On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him.] And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”​
Though this may be a correct assessment of the "Testimonium," we should note that an Arabic version (10th Century) of the "Testimonium" (translated into English) is in basic agreement with the existing Josephus account:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."2

Notice that the line about the resurrection was probably inserted later in the Josephus version, and in the Arabic version it says: "They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." "They reported", thus this is evidence that his disciples believed in the resurrection, not that the writer believes it.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
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From https://carm.org/regarding-quotes-historian-josephus-about-jesus (A Christian website):

The problem with the copies of Antiquities is that they appear to have been rewritten in favor of Jesus and some say too favorable to have been written by a Jew. Add to this that the Christians were the ones who kept and made the copies of the Josephus documents throughout history and you have a shadow of doubt cast upon the quotes.

However, all is not lost. First of all, there is no proof that such insertions into the text were ever made. They may be authentic. The "Testimonium" is found in every copy of Josephus in existence. Second, Josephus mentions many other biblically-relevant occurrences that are not in dispute (see outline below). This adds validity to the claim that Josephus knew about Jesus and wrote about Him since he also wrote about other New Testament things. Nevertheless, though there may be some Christian insertions into the text, we can still reconstruct what may have been the original writing.

Two researchers (Edwin Yamauchi and John P. Meier)1 have constructed a copy of the "Testimonium" with the probable insertions in brackets and underlined. The following paragraph is Yamauchi's:

“About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man [if indeed one ought to call him a man.] For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. [He was the Christ.] When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. [On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him.] And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”​
Though this may be a correct assessment of the "Testimonium," we should note that an Arabic version (10th Century) of the "Testimonium" (translated into English) is in basic agreement with the existing Josephus account:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."2

Notice that the line about the resurrection was probably inserted later in the Josephus version, and in the Arabic version it says: "They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." "They reported", thus this is evidence that his disciples believed in the resurrection, not that the writer believes it.
even if you believe that it still doesn't discredit what Tacitus said, or the others.
 
Jun 4, 2018
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even if you believe that it still doesn't discredit what Tacitus said, or the others.
What text are you referring to exactly? Tacitus does not mention the resurrection. "A mischievous superstition" could refer to anything.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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What text are you referring to exactly? Tacitus does not mention the resurrection. "A mischievous superstition" could refer to anything.

and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome

let me break it down...

and a most mischievous superstition= JESUS.

thus checked for the moment=HIS DEATH.

again broke out not only in Judea the first source of the evil=RESURRECTION.

but even in Rome=SPREAD OF THE GOSPEL.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome

let me break it down...

and a most mischievous superstition= JESUS.

thus checked for the moment=HIS DEATH.

again broke out not only in Judea the first source of the evil=RESURRECTION.

but even in Rome=SPREAD OF THE GOSPEL.
What do you think it proves?
 
Jun 4, 2018
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and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome

let me break it down...

and a most mischievous superstition= JESUS.

thus checked for the moment=HIS DEATH.

again broke out not only in Judea the first source of the evil=RESURRECTION.

but even in Rome=SPREAD OF THE GOSPEL.
Maybe there's a language barrier here, since English is not my first language. But I don't see how "thus checked for the moment"=HIS DEATH, and "again broke out not only in Judea the first source of the evil"=RESURRECTION.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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Maybe there's a language barrier here, since English is not my first language. But I don't see how "thus checked for the moment"=HIS DEATH, and "again broke out not only in Judea the first source of the evil"=RESURRECTION.
the mischievous superstition was talking about the ministry of Jesus in Judea, and its supernatural evidence. when they say thus checked they are talking about Christ death, which stopped the ministry temporarily. again broke out is talking about how with His resurrection it kicked the ministry into overdrive. to Rome shows the impact of how great it was.
 
Jun 4, 2018
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the mischievous superstition was talking about the ministry of Jesus in Judea, and its supernatural evidence. when they say thus checked they are talking about Christ death, which stopped the ministry temporarily. again broke out is talking about how with His resurrection it kicked the ministry into overdrive. to Rome shows the impact of how great it was.
Again, all that shows is that his followers believed he resurrected, not that Tacitus believed it.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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Again, all that shows is that his followers believed he resurrected, not that Tacitus believed it.
not saying he believed it, but by the record he acknowledges it, and the only time you acknowledge something is when you have given it a weight of truth.
 
Jun 4, 2018
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not saying he believed it, but by the record he acknowledges it, and the only time you acknowledge something is when you have given it a weight of truth.
Even if we grant you that Tacitus acknowledged it, this still does not change my previous point that we can only tell from it that his followers believed it. "Again broke out" refers to the growth of the ministry. You say this is because of the resurrection, but that is your interpretation. You are probably right that the growth is due to the followers believing Jesus resurrected, but Tacitus does not mention that.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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I think that our morality comes from innate instincts to preserve our genes and from cultural norms. Scientists have discovered that many animal species have a basic sense of morality too. For example, monkeys will get upset when they see another monkey being treated unfairly. Altruism evolved because it is beneficial to the preservation of your genes to be altruistic. So everyone has a basic sense of morality, but the specifics differ per culture, which is the result of cultural evolution. As for evil, I don't believe it exists. Even the most atrocious crimes are commited with the best intentions, however misguided. And things like diseases and natural disaster are not evil either, it's simply nature doing its thing. They are only evil from the human perspective.
"As for evil, I don't believe it exists."


So you don't believe evil exists?
There isn't anything which is evil?

And if nothing is objectively evil or bad, then by contrast, nothing is objectively good?


Is this your view?


----------
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
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Even if we grant you that Tacitus acknowledged it, this still does not change my previous point that we can only tell from it that his followers believed it. "Again broke out" refers to the growth of the ministry. You say this is because of the resurrection, but that is your interpretation. You are probably right that the growth is due to the followers believing Jesus resurrected, but Tacitus does not mention that.
no the spread to Rome refers to the growth, again broke our is clearly that the movement had died with him but gained new life with the resurrection. Tacitus is mentioning it, even acknowledging it, and that gives it a weight of truth.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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they cant claim faith, that is the lie that the devil has put in man. its the idea that you can have your own faith. truth is faith is birthed in you by God alone, so you could never have faith in anything He doesn't want you to have faith in.

so they can say they have faith, but truth is they believe a lie. only faith in Christ is faith.
Hi wanderer6059.

I believe that those who have "faith" that vishnu is their lord and saviour actually have the exact same "faith" as those who believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

It's the same faith in both ... it is the object of their faith that is in error.

As you state:

"so they can say they have faith, but truth is they believe a lie."

The "lie" believed is believed with the same "faith" as the person who believes the Truth (that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior).

It's just that the faith of the one is misplaced. Therefore, their faith remains weak and vishnu has no power to turn them from idols to serve the living and true God (1 Thess 1:9).
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Magenta said:
My response was, they are blind. Do you know that that means? It seems not. Atheists repress the knowledge of God, due to their pride of life (willful blindness). Many have made an idol of their supposed intelligence.
So then they do have an excuse, they are blind.
No, the blindness is self-inflicted. Because they hold the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18).

The word "hold" in Rom 1:18 is the Greek word katechontōn which means to hold fast, bind, restrain.

So when they clearly see the eternal power and divinity of God (Rom 1:20), they suppress and restrain the truth. They do not allow the truth to reach their hearts where God works to strengthen faith.

That is why they are "without excuse". When they are shown truth, they restrain the truth and turn to their own vain reasonings.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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Hi wanderer6059.

I believe that those who have "faith" that vishnu is their lord and saviour actually have the exact same "faith" as those who believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

It's the same faith in both ... it is the object of their faith that is in error.

As you state:

"so they can say they have faith, but truth is they believe a lie."

The "lie" believed is believed with the same "faith" as the person who believes the Truth (that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior).

It's just that the faith of the one is misplaced. Therefore, their faith remains weak and vishnu has no power to turn them from idols to serve the living and true God (1 Thess 1:9).
Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).
 
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