Is faith a work?

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

fg2

This is irrelevant. In Eph 1:4, the "elect" are believers. The word "us" is clearly defined in v.19.

The elect werent believers when first elected/chosen since it occured to them in Christ before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Even Paul was an elect , he uses the pronoun us plural, but he didn't believe until later. Those God chooses before the foundation, He will give them Faith to believe in time.

So its not possible to be a believer before the foundation of the world when you didnt physically exist yet.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

fg2

However, Calvinists believe that there are those who God has simply passed over and didn't "elect" and won't ever be saved.

Thats truth, God didnt choose everyone for Salvation, some He chose to be recipients of His wrath and destruction, and that in Justice. They are called vessels of wrath Rom 9:21-22

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Unfortunately, these people God purposed not to show saving mercy unto !

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

fg2

So telling someone that Christ died for them would be a LIE if Calvinism were true and you were trying to evangelize one of those poor unfortunate folk who Christ didn't bother to die for.

Yes you should never tell an individual Christ died for them, because He may not have if they weren't one of His Sheep Jn 10.

Show us in the book of Acts where we see the most evangelism by the Apostles and Preachers, where they told any individual that Christ died for them.

You and I have no right to tell anybody that Christ died specifically for them. Now of course after a person comes to faith in the true Christ, and we share the testimony of the one true Gospel, then there is sufficient good hope that Christ died for that one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

fg2 said:
"Pure nonsense. The Bible is clear that it is those who believe who are saved. The action of believing comes from the person, not from God.

But, prove your claim with clear verses that say what you claim."

Oh no, you are saying faith/believing which is involved in Salvation is a activity of the flesh, of the unregenerate person

You Calvinists crack me up. I proved what I said with Scripture.

In Eph 2:5, Paul equated regeneration with being saved. Or prove that he didn't do that, from the verse.

Then, in v.8 Paul said we are saved THROUGH faith. That proves that faith precedes salvation, which also includes regeneration.

The verses are clear enough. If you read them differently, you are reading them WRONG.

A response, believing, is an act of the mind and the heart. Paul is describing a work of the heart here Rom 10:9

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The word believe here is in the active voice which means:

Represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "Jesus returned to Capernaum" Jesus performs the action.

So for you to perform a action of believing, which results in your salvation, that's Salvation by your works, your action.

Why did you ignore the very next verse?

v.10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Whose heart? YOUR heart. And, as Paul clearly taught, both salvation and regeneration are THROUGH faith, which obviously means the faith is first.

Want another verse that teaches the same thing? OK.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So, what is it that God is pleased to do? To save those who believe.

If you can't or won't see the order here, then you are beyond help. God saves believers. When a person believes, God saves them.

What verse says that God regenerates a person so that they can believe? No verse says that. Only Calvinists claim that.

You have it exactly backwards.

 

[FreeGrace2]

fg2


The elect werent believers when first elected/chosen since it occured to them in Christ before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Even Paul was an elect , he uses the pronoun us plural, but he didn't believe until later. Those God chooses before the foundation, He will give them Faith to believe in time.

So its not possible to be a believer before the foundation of the world when you didnt physically exist yet.

Again, the word "us" in v.4 is defined in v.19. You should read it and KNOW what Paul was clearly saying.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thats truth, God didnt choose everyone for Salvation, some He chose to be recipients of His wrath and destruction, and that in Justice.

The Bible teaches that God is pleased to save those who believe, and the recipients of His wrath are stictly because they didn't believe.

They are called vessels of wrath Rom 9:21-22

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Unfortunately, these people God purposed not to show saving mercy unto !

Your Calvinism really gets in the way of your understanding the Bible.

Do you know who will be condemned (LOF)? Those who "never believed".

Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say this in plain language.

 

[FreeGrace2]

fg2 said:

"So telling someone that Christ died for them would be a LIE if Calvinism were true and you were trying to evangelize one of those poor unfortunate folk who Christ didn't bother to die for."

Yes you should never tell an individual Christ died for them, because He may not have if they weren't one of His Sheep Jn 10.

Nonsense. Christ DID die for everyone. Calvinism is wrong on that. There are very clear verses, but Calvinism twists them into something they do not teach.

John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47. 2 Cor 5:14,15, 19 Heb 2:9, 1 Tim 2:3-6

Show us in the book of Acts where we see the most evangelism by the Apostles and Preachers, where they told any individual that Christ died for them.

First, I have given you the verses that SAY that. Second, this is what Paul told the Corinthian congregation in 1 Cor 15-
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

The bolded words in v.3 is an inclusion of the Corinthian congregation.

11 -
Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

This proves that Paul taught that Christ died for them, and they believed it. Then God saved them.




You and I have no right to tell anybody that Christ died specifically for them. Now of course after a person comes to faith in the true Christ, and we share the testimony of the one true Gospel, then there is sufficient good hope that Christ died for that one.

 

[Grandpa]

I prefer what the Bible says, rather than what anyone else says.

John 6-
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

See? That was the question of the crowd.


What doesn't work is your kicking of the goads. Just accept what the Bible says.


So after telling me that I'm chaning the wording/meaning, you do it yourself. Hypocrite. I never said the Lord was kidding. He was using their own wording against them.

The Jews thought about salvation as something that they must work at or for. Jesus turned it around on them to get them to understand that the ONLY thing that man can to is to believe the promise.


Why don't you just read the Bible and believe what you read? I don't know who has been teaching you, but they get an F.

Yes. YOU Changed what the Lord Jesus said to fit YOUR imagination.

The Lord didn't answer their question in the way that YOU wish and the way your IMAGINATION says.

The Lord told them what the work of God was. The work that No One can do until they are drawn to Christ and given the Gift of God.


You are doing the same thing the Jews did. You are making Salvation something you have to work for. You are attempting to change faith from a gift of God to a work that people do.

 

[Grandpa]

this is nonsensical

it is the work of God that we believe

we are saved by grace through faith

we are not saved apart from faith.. we are still dead in our sin.. we must be justified before we can be made alive

we were made alive while dead in sin, when we believed, not before.

Even your own words are nonsensical to you.

Think about this sentence that YOU wrote. Try to understand it.

Then see if the post you were responding to is "nonsensical".

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I prefer what the Bible says, rather than what anyone else says.

John 6-
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

See? That was the question of the crowd.

Yes. YOU Changed what the Lord Jesus said to fit YOUR imagination.

I DARE you to prove this empty claim. Point out where I inserted my "imagination" into the verse. Go ahead.

The Lord didn't answer their question in the way that YOU wish and the way your IMAGINATION says.

Go read it for yourself. In v.28 they asked what they must do to "do the works God requires". Got it?

Jesus' answer in v..29 was "the work of God is this; to believe in the one He has sent".

So where is my supposed imagination in any of this? Your claims are empty.

The Lord told them what the work of God was. The work that No One can do until they are drawn to Christ and given the Gift of God.

He didn't say any of that. And you accuse me of adding to Scripture by my 'imagination". You're the one with the huge imagination.

You are doing the same thing the Jews did. You are making Salvation something you have to work for.

What a ridiculous claim. Believing the gospel promise is NOT "working for" salvation. How absurd.

You are attempting to change faith from a gift of God to a work that people do.

More ridiculous and empty claims.

Rom 10:10 tells us where belief comes from; our hearts. But Calvinists don't believe that, and have made up quite a story about what they would prefer was true.

It's impossible to have a real discussion with Calvinists, given their wild imagination about what they think the Bible says.

Rom 4:4,5 proves that believing isn't a work. But you don't seem able to understand that.

Eph 2:8,9 teaches the same thing. But you still don't seem to understand that either.

Calvinists WRONGLY assume that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel promise until they are regenerated, even though Calvinists cannot prove their assumption from Scripture.

So we aren't even on the same playing field. Or universe.

 

[Grandpa]

Pure nonsense. The Bible is clear that it is those who believe who are saved. The action of believing comes from the person, not from God.

But, prove your claim with clear verses that say what you claim.


Believing the gospel promise is a response to God. How is that a work?

IF it is ANYTHING that YOU have to generate inside YOURSELF in order to cause God to act, then its a work.

If it is a Gift of God and God is the first cause, then it is NOT a works.


That's the VERY easy way to tell if something is a work or not.


Are you Righteous because of something you do or entirely because of what Christ does?

The obvious answer is because of what Christ does. But if YOU must generate faith inside yourself BEFORE Christ can work His Work then you switched the roles around. You are now Righteous because of your initial act of believing. YOU become the first cause of Salvation instead of GOD.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

Again, the word "us" in v.4 is defined in v.19. You should read it and KNOW what Paul was clearly saying.

The word us is the elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

The Bible teaches that God is pleased to save those who believe, and the recipients of His wrath are stictly because they didn't believe.


Your Calvinism really gets in the way of your understanding the Bible.

Do you know who will be condemned (LOF)? Those who "never believed".

Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say this in plain language.

Sorry, God didnt chose everyone for Salvation.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

You or I have no right to tell anyone Christ died for them. Where did any of the Apostles in the book of Acts tell anyone Christ died for them ? Thats an invention of man.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

grandpa

IF it is ANYTHING that YOU have to generate inside YOURSELF in order to cause God to act, then its a work.

If it is a Gift of God and God is the first cause, then it is NOT a works.

Exactly, well stated

 

[Grandpa]

Rom 10:10 tells us where belief comes from; our hearts. But Calvinists don't believe that, and have made up quite a story about what they would prefer was true.

It's impossible to have a real discussion with Calvinists, given their wild imagination about what they think the Bible says.

Rom 4:4,5 proves that believing isn't a work. But you don't seem able to understand that.

Eph 2:8,9 teaches the same thing. But you still don't seem to understand that either.

Calvinists WRONGLY assume that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel promise until they are regenerated, even though Calvinists cannot prove their assumption from Scripture.

So we aren't even on the same playing field. Or universe.

Its incredibly simple. But you don't WANT to understand it.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Faith, that results in Salvation, is a gift of God. It comes from this New Heart that is ALSO a gift of God.


John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

What does this mean?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It means you can't do that (the work of God) without Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

IF it is ANYTHING that YOU have to generate inside YOURSELF in order to cause God to act, then its a work.

Why don't you believe Rom 4:4,5 where Paul EXPLAINED what "work" is in the Bible. It is anything that creates an obligation by the person doing the work to the one who PAYS for the work. Do you understand what that means? Is God paying anyone for believing in His Son? NO. How do I know that? Because salvation (Eph 2:8) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are described as gifts.

Now, if your employer always called your paycheck (from him to you) a "gift", I could see your total confusion. But I KNOW that your employer NEVER EVER called your paycheck a gift to you. So you have NO REASON to think a gift is a payment for anything.

Are you Righteous because of something you do or entirely because of what Christ does?

And you don't seem to understand why believers are called righteous. It started with Abraham, actually.

Gal 3:6 - So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

The believer's righteousness is CREDITED by God. Believers aren't intrinsically righteous. It is Christ's righteousness that is imputed to the believer in Christ.

The obvious answer is because of what Christ does. But if YOU must generate faith inside yourself BEFORE Christ can work His Work then you switched the roles around.

Calvinists are a hoot. Making up such stuff.

First you made up this whopper: If it is ANYTHING that YOU have to generate inside YOURSELF in order to cause God to act, then its a work

Then you made up this whopper: if YOU must generate faith inside yourself BEFORE Christ can work His Work then you switched the roles around.

Calvinists seem to have NO CLUE about what belief is. It is simply TRUST. How do you trust in anything? Can you answer that?

Regardless of your answer, trusting is thinking. Do you "generate" your own thoughts, or does someone else "generate" them for you?

That is how silly your notions are.

God created humanity with a conscience with which to THINK. Do you "generate" thoughts, as if that's a lot of work? How many of your "generated thoughts" do you get paid for anyway? I'll bet NONE of them.

People don't get paid for having thoughts. That is rididulous. Smart people are hired NOT for thinking thoughts, but applying them to BENEFIT the one doing the paying.

For example, I could hire a genius to guide me into buying the best and most productive stocks. The goal, of course, would be to made a ton of money based on what the genius comes up with.

But, if this genius only thinks the right thoughts, but doesn't share them with me, so that I can BENEFIT from his genius, then what is the point of paying that genius in the first place??

The key is BENEFIT. How does God BENEFIT from a person who simply believes His promise of salvation through His Son? Can you answer that?

You are now Righteous because of your initial act of believing.

No, that is wrong. God has declared me righteous. My act of believing doesn't "make me righteous".

YOU become the first cause of Salvation instead of GOD.

You couldn't be more wrong.

The whole plan of salvation is from God. So that makes Him the first cause of salvation. iow, it is His plan. Not yours, not mine.

So your whole thinking is totally wrong on all of this, as I have just pointed out.

Regarding the concept of OBLIGATION, it is God who has OBLIGATED Himself. When a person responds to the gospel promise by believing the promise, God has OBLIGATED Himself to save that person.

Can you understand this? It isn't Calvinism, it is the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Again, the word "us" in v.4 is defined in v.19. You should read it and KNOW what Paul was clearly saying.

The word us is the elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation.

Why do you ignore or deny v.19? Paul defined exactly who the "us" is in v.4. It is believers. So the verse says that God chose believers.

Now, what did God choose believers FOR? What was His purpose in choosing believers? It is in the verse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry, God didnt chose everyone for Salvation.

That's what I said. Didn't you read my post before your reply?

"FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible teaches that God is pleased to save those who believe, and the recipients of His wrath are stictly because they didn't believe."

Calvinists think that God is pleased to unconditionally save some and regenerates them so that they will believe. That is totally foreign to Scripture. But share any verse that you think teaches that. Or correct my error if Calvinists don't think what I just said they think.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

FreeGrace2 said:
Again, the word "us" in v.4 is defined in v.19. You should read it and KNOW what Paul was clearly saying.

Why do you ignore or deny v.19? Paul defined exactly who the "us" is in v.4. It is believers. So the verse says that God chose believers.

Now, what did God choose believers FOR? What was His purpose in choosing believers? It is in the verse.

I havent denied anything, thats an false accusation friend.