Is faith WITHOUT works dead to GOD or Is faith WITHOUT works dead to man?

[Grace911]

Right, that is what I have said. See two separate subjects that you are conflating.

Subject 1 is the subject of the thread which is that faith is proven by works

Subject 2 is salvation which is not the subject of the thread, and salvation is not by works, but by the grace of God alone.

You need to learn to separate the subjects and not conflate them.

Jesus/Yeshua is the gift of God's grace for salvation (being brought back to the Marriage Covenant). Withou Jesus/Yeshua/Yehovah saves there is no returning to renew the marriage covenant.

Our works is our fruit and salvation is the root, the nourishment that comes to the branches and fruit. If we ignore the commandments and declare we should all be lawless, (fearful of the Law) the one thing that reveals the Covenant promises, then a promise given by Jesus/Yeshua "I never knew you; depart from, you workers of lawlessness." A marriage covenant is intimate and personal. Pleasing your bridegroom in the ways He likes to be honored, shows that you love Him and by keeping of His commandments you are blessed for obedience. Again, salvation is only through Yeshua/Jesus blood shed for our sins and the debt we owed which is death. You probably heard "Born Once, Die Twice; Born Twice, Die Once." The phrase " born once, die twice or born twice, die once " is a quotation from Martin Luther, Maybe, some of us will not even die once - Come LORD Jesus.

Matthew 7:23

English Standard Version
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

New King James Version
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[montana123]

Romans 4:3
KJV
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

James 2:16-18
KJV

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

We are saved by faith, and not by works, for that is all we can do when we first confess Christ.

When we receive the Spirit then we have to have works of love for faith to be active in our life.

Helping people will their needs whatever it may be, and preaching God's word to people.

Out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, charity is the greatest.

Love is greater than faith, and faith works by love.

If a person neglects love then faith does not apply in their life to be saved.

Paul said if he did not have charity then he is nothing, and the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law, which some having coveted after money have erred from the faith that it is about loving people, and not going by our wants.

James said if a person does not have charity which he pointed out if we have the means to help the poor, and needy, and we do not do it, then our faith is dead, for love is greater than faith.

Which he said a person is justified by works and not faith alone, which these are works of loving people.

John said if a person does not have charity and points out caring about the poor and needy if they have the resources then the love of God does not dwell in them.

Then he said do not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed, works, and truth.

People argue about Paul saying not saved by works, and James saying we have to have works, but Paul and James are saying the same thing concerning works when we have the Spirit that we have to have works of love or our faith is void.

We have to have works of love that can only be done by works for it cannot be done in word for it to be valid so our faith will be valid.

If a person sees a person in need and says I love you in word, but does nothing to help the person then how do they love them.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead,

And, of course, what the passage REALLY teaches is that a "faith" that produces NOTHING in terms of resultant works, isn't Biblical FAITH AT ALL.

"Works" don't produce "Faith", but Biblical FAITH invariably CHANGES a person, and results in them doing good works as the Holy Spirit leads.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Well this is the thing. The question isn't about salvation, which indeed, is by the grace of God alone. The question is about works proving faith. Two separate issues.

But you voted that faith WITHOUT works Is not only dead to man but dead to GOD also and GOD doesn't need to see physical works,do you agree?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Well this is the thing. The question isn't about salvation, which indeed, is by the grace of God alone. The question is about works proving faith. Two separate issues.

But you voted that faith WITHOUT works Is not only dead to man but dead to GOD also and GOD doesn't need to see physical works,do you agree?

Romans 4:1-2
KJV

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

And, of course, what the passage REALLY teaches is that a "faith" that produces NOTHING in terms of resultant works, isn't Biblical FAITH AT ALL.

"Works" don't produce "Faith", but Biblical FAITH invariably CHANGES a person, and results in them doing good works as the Holy Spirit leads.

Would you agree that when brother James wrote that even so,faith, If It hath not works Is dead, being alone was being directed towards the Men he was speaking to and not GOD?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

We are saved by faith, and not by works, for that is all we can do when we first confess Christ.

When we receive the Spirit then we have to have works of love for faith to be active in our life.

Helping people will their needs whatever it may be, and preaching God's word to people.

Out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, charity is the greatest.

Love is greater than faith, and faith works by love.

If a person neglects love then faith does not apply in their life to be saved.

Paul said if he did not have charity then he is nothing, and the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law, which some having coveted after money have erred from the faith that it is about loving people, and not going by our wants.

James said if a person does not have charity which he pointed out if we have the means to help the poor, and needy, and we do not do it, then our faith is dead, for love is greater than faith.

Which he said a person is justified by works and not faith alone, which these are works of loving people.

John said if a person does not have charity and points out caring about the poor and needy if they have the resources then the love of God does not dwell in them.

Then he said do not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed, works, and truth.

People argue about Paul saying not saved by works, and James saying we have to have works, but Paul and James are saying the same thing concerning works when we have the Spirit that we have to have works of love or our faith is void.

We have to have works of love that can only be done by works for it cannot be done in word for it to be valid so our faith will be valid.

If a person sees a person in need and says I love you in word, but does nothing to help the person then how do they love them.

How would you vote In the poll at the top?🙂

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Would you agree that when brother James wrote that even so,faith, If It hath not works Is dead, being alone was being directed towards the Men he was speaking to and not GOD?

Why would James be writing to God??? THAT makes no sense at all.
James was writing to ME, you, and other Christians for the last 2000 years. James is providing a "Litmus test" which when applied, demonstrates whether what somebody CALLS "Faith", really IS "FAITH", or is nothing but religious nonsense.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Why would James be writing to God??? THAT makes no sense at all.
James was writing to ME, you, and other Christians for the last 2000 years. James is providing a "Litmus test" which when applied, demonstrates whether what somebody CALLS "Faith", really IS "FAITH", or is nothing but religious nonsense.

I should have left the “ and not GOD” out of that post ,It should have been like this

Would you agree that when brother James wrote that even so,faith, If It hath not works Is dead, being alone was being directed towards Men because GOD doesn’t need to see physical works to account a persons faith as righteous

sidenote:
Abraham was accounted righteous by GOD long BEFORE he did any works.

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

But you voted that faith WITHOUT works Is not only dead to man but dead to GOD also and GOD doesn't need to see physical works,do you agree?

Yes, I agree, and I maintain my vote. Faith without works is dead to both God and man as the scriptures make abundantly clear.

Romans 4:1-2
KJV

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

Let me post two portions of the scriptures pertaining to Abraham and why I have voted the way I have voted. We will start with the portion from James which the overall subject is about, and then with Genesis, the story to which James is referring to. This will show plainly that Abraham's works here in obeying God and having so much faith in God to the point that he prepares Isaac, his only begotten son to be sacrificed, and this work proves to God, and not just man alone, that Abraham had faith in God and the God recognizes this.

James 2:21-24
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Genesis 22:9-18
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

 

[mailmandan]

How would you assess those Jesus speaks concerning in Matthew 7:21-23?

These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and not in Christ alone. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved (vs. 23) so they were not genuine believers. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. (John 6:40)