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So you can read the whole chapter. and tell me Paul is not speaking of national Israel?
WHy do you not do this. Read John 15 and what Jesus explains abiding in the vine means.
It means being able to produce fruit. If fruit is not being made, God cuts it off, If it is, God prunes and it bears even more fruit.
Salvation is not even the context of being grafted into the vine. The context is which of HIS PEOPLE are bearing fruit, and who is not. and needs cut off.
My doctrine is not forming my interpretation. My interpretation of the chapter as a whole is forming my doctrine, I do not just pick and chose a verse here and their to form my doctrine.
In a sense, but a clear look it I can see when Paul refers to Israel, he means the majority of individuals. Look closely. Paul points this out even in the first verse.
11I say then, has God cast away His people (the nation as a whole, individuals who had unbelief, Paul first calls them PEOPLE)? Certainly not! For I (an INDIVIDUAL) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Paul explains God did not cast away His people (Israel, the majority of Israel) because he (Paul, an INDIVIDUAL) was not cast out because later came to faith.
Paul calls the majority of individuals who did not believe "Israel" just for the sake of identification purposes. Can you see that...Paul singles himself out as one who has not been cast out, although he was a true natural Jew. So Paul doesn't mean Israel the Nation, he means the majority of people in the Jewish nation, and calls them Israel because they make up the majority.
If I say United States of America is a sinful nation, does that include you?
Paul brings this out further by talking about Israel's past, the 7000 remnant. Was the 7000 remnant a separate nation? No. But the Majority of people, Israel as a whole, were just about to get judged by God. Was the 7000 included in that Judgement, or were they spared? Yes, the were spared, individually, even though they were still part of Israel the nation.
Can you see now Paul is not talking about the entity, the establishment, but the majority of individuals who had unbelief?
Verse 7 brings this out too!
7 What then? Israel (the majority of people) has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect (Jewish elect, the remnant of the nation, the saved ones, like Paul, the 12 disciples, and all the Jews who didn't reject Jesus, Jewish converts, the Jews at pentecost, etc. etc....The Christian Church at first were all Jews!) have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (who are the rest? the Jewish majority in whom Paul calls Israel for identification purposes) 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor, (Gentiles aren't even mentioned thus far) so...(God has given the majority of Jews, Israel as a whole, this stupor)
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day." (Paul is quoting Isaiah 29:10,13; Deut. 29:3-4, here about Israel as a whole, the majority of individuals about their blindness, it's not about the entity, the establishment because a nation is not a living concept, can't be blind...Only people can be blind...We know this isn't all of Israel individually because we know God had a remnant)
Paul then goes on to quote King David...(ps. 69:22,23) It was Davids' own countrymen after him. David and his countrymen, both Israelites, but a distinction, an individual distinction... Look at what David and Paul says about the majority of Israel who are disobedient "And make their loins shake continually." and "And bow down their back always.” NationalIsrael today is still against Christ, so wonder why there is no peace over there. John said in his book who ever is against Christ is an anti-Christ... (oh boy, can't wait to hear from Straighshooter to shoot me)
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always." (Paul is applying this to current national Israel in his day, I think we can make application that it still apply's for today, for Paul said this in our Church age)
You see, Natural Jews will never become God people until they repent and recognized Jesus as their King, LORD, and savior. This is what Paul is bringing out!
Then Paul says in verse 11 that because of their fall salvation came the Gentiles. Not to Gentiles in the sense that every Gentile is saved, but that now any Gentile who believes has the opportunity to be a member of God's family through faith in Christ. It was God's intention that the majority of Jews to be blind, so that Christ would be sacrificed for the reconciling of the world (all people) to God the Father! This was God's eternal Purpose!!!!Eph. 3:11. Therefore, just as those People (individuals) in national Israel were broke off, then can be grafted back in just like the wild branches (Gentiles who believe and have faith)...
Now Paul says to the Gentile branches (individual Gentile believers), do not boast against the branches that were broken off (individuals Jew who didn't believe), because if God didn't spare the unbelieving Jews, He might not spare you! For the root (Christ) has final say, it is Christ that supports them. Now the only way Gentile branches can be broken off, is if they were once grafted into the olive tree, Christ, the tree of life. If the a Gentile was never saved/grafted into the tree, it can't break off!
You cry context, and I just gave to you. This seems to suggest to me that a person can lose their salvation.
11I say then, has God cast away His people (the nation as a whole, individuals who had unbelief, Paul first calls them PEOPLE)? Certainly not! For I (an INDIVIDUAL) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Paul explains God did not cast away His people (Israel, the majority of Israel) because he (Paul, an INDIVIDUAL) was not cast out because later came to faith.
Paul calls the majority of individuals who did not believe "Israel" just for the sake of identification purposes. Can you see that...Paul singles himself out as one who has not been cast out, although he was a true natural Jew. So Paul doesn't mean Israel the Nation, he means the majority of people in the Jewish nation, and calls them Israel because they make up the majority.
If I say United States of America is a sinful nation, does that include you?
Paul brings this out further by talking about Israel's past, the 7000 remnant. Was the 7000 remnant a separate nation? No. But the Majority of people, Israel as a whole, were just about to get judged by God. Was the 7000 included in that Judgement, or were they spared? Yes, the were spared, individually, even though they were still part of Israel the nation.
Can you see now Paul is not talking about the entity, the establishment, but the majority of individuals who had unbelief?
Verse 7 brings this out too!
7 What then? Israel (the majority of people) has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect (Jewish elect, the remnant of the nation, the saved ones, like Paul, the 12 disciples, and all the Jews who didn't reject Jesus, Jewish converts, the Jews at pentecost, etc. etc....The Christian Church at first were all Jews!) have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (who are the rest? the Jewish majority in whom Paul calls Israel for identification purposes) 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor, (Gentiles aren't even mentioned thus far) so...(God has given the majority of Jews, Israel as a whole, this stupor)
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day." (Paul is quoting Isaiah 29:10,13; Deut. 29:3-4, here about Israel as a whole, the majority of individuals about their blindness, it's not about the entity, the establishment because a nation is not a living concept, can't be blind...Only people can be blind...We know this isn't all of Israel individually because we know God had a remnant)
Paul then goes on to quote King David...(ps. 69:22,23) It was Davids' own countrymen after him. David and his countrymen, both Israelites, but a distinction, an individual distinction... Look at what David and Paul says about the majority of Israel who are disobedient "And make their loins shake continually." and "And bow down their back always.” NationalIsrael today is still against Christ, so wonder why there is no peace over there. John said in his book who ever is against Christ is an anti-Christ... (oh boy, can't wait to hear from Straighshooter to shoot me)
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always." (Paul is applying this to current national Israel in his day, I think we can make application that it still apply's for today, for Paul said this in our Church age)
You see, Natural Jews will never become God people until they repent and recognized Jesus as their King, LORD, and savior. This is what Paul is bringing out!
Then Paul says in verse 11 that because of their fall salvation came the Gentiles. Not to Gentiles in the sense that every Gentile is saved, but that now any Gentile who believes has the opportunity to be a member of God's family through faith in Christ. It was God's intention that the majority of Jews to be blind, so that Christ would be sacrificed for the reconciling of the world (all people) to God the Father! This was God's eternal Purpose!!!!Eph. 3:11. Therefore, just as those People (individuals) in national Israel were broke off, then can be grafted back in just like the wild branches (Gentiles who believe and have faith)...
Now Paul says to the Gentile branches (individual Gentile believers), do not boast against the branches that were broken off (individuals Jew who didn't believe), because if God didn't spare the unbelieving Jews, He might not spare you! For the root (Christ) has final say, it is Christ that supports them. Now the only way Gentile branches can be broken off, is if they were once grafted into the olive tree, Christ, the tree of life. If the a Gentile was never saved/grafted into the tree, it can't break off!
You cry context, and I just gave to you. This seems to suggest to me that a person can lose their salvation.
God and Jesus never wanted to be a fleshly king, physical ruling presence, on earth, ruling and forcing people to obey. God didn't want the Israelites to have a king, but gave them one because of their whining. However, God used those kings in various ways, one being a type (earthly king) to the anti-type (Jesus, heavenly king). This is why it is said that Christ is sitting on the throne of David, this is what it means, Christ fulfilled the type. It doesn't mean Jesus has to physically sit on an earthly throne. Jesus walked away when He had that chance, (John 6:15) the people tried to force Him to be a king. God and Jesus are spiritual kings, wanting to rule in the hearts and mind of people.
New American Standard Bible
So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone.
Speaking of the New Covenant in the Old, God says:
Jeremiah 31:33
New American Standard Bible
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
The writer of Hebrews quotes this and applies to the Church, the Church is the Israel of God:
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[b]I will remember no more.”
New American Standard Bible
So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone.
Speaking of the New Covenant in the Old, God says:
Jeremiah 31:33
New American Standard Bible
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
The writer of Hebrews quotes this and applies to the Church, the Church is the Israel of God:
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[b]I will remember no more.”
S
keep it positive.. we're not built to look a wrong way.. mindfulness of heavenly things..! there was a verse of "all there was" a scary assumption of being judged if turning away after being given understanding or knowledge of truth. some "unreal realm," we thinks? we all got Serious Service, none can read.
falling behind The Cross? no.
THE CROSS.
yo bdw check out Cyndi Lauper time after time
falling behind The Cross? no.
THE CROSS.
yo bdw check out Cyndi Lauper time after time
E
We agree with everything here. I am not sure why people think we disagree here.
They must be saved, or nothing else matter, this is actually what Paul is saying also.
Here is where we start to get off the path and start to go separate ways, Gentiles have always had a chance to be saved, it was never just for jews, Nothing is new here, A gentile and jew (in the OT or NT had to recieve in faith Gods word. that is always what has saved them.
It is not like all of a sudden, a gentile who had no opportunity to be saved, now has the ability to be saved. So this CAN NOT be the context of what Paul is talking about. because it is not something new.
the question is, what is new, If you wish, I would like to discuss this, but I will leave it at that for now.
But again, the grafting in is to produce fruit, Not to be saved. This is the part i think you are not seeing.
Why do you stop here? If Paul stopped here, I might be able to see what your saying, but paul does not stop here. If we stop here, we fail to see the rest of what Paul says, and do not get proper context.
As you told me earlier, if we interpret it via our belief system, we may be blinded to the truth. People who believe all prophesy concerning isreal is complete ALWAYS stop here, there is a reason for this.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
He not only tells us that we should not be houghty, that we were grafted in and they were cut out. He tells us we should not be wise in our own opinion of another FACT (the fact that people who believe all prophesy is done concerning Israel) that blindness IN PART is occuring UNTIL THE FULLNESS of the GENTILE has come in (been completed)
Then something amazing happens.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
Here we see Paul speaking in future tense, When will this happen? When the fullness of the gentile has come in. What will happen? The deliverer will come out of Zion, and take away the sin of Jacob (Israel) and ALL ISrAEL WILL BE SAVED, why? Because they have repented, and recieved their messiah,
in other words, the blindness IN PART has been removed.
Why is God going to do this for Israel (when he never did it for the Gentile) Paul lets us know why.. "This is my covenant with THEM, when I will remove their sin" or remove their blindness.
This also fulfills daniel 9 The end of the sin of Israel has been completed.
so. what does paul tell us gentiles to do about Israel now?
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Consider them our enemy as far as the gospel goes. But consider the fact they, even in their sin, are beloved because of Gods GIFT and CALLING of the fathers. To do otherwise, would be to be wise in your own opinion.
Well as I said, if we left it where you did, I can see it. But we can not leave it where you said, we must continue what Paul said, when we do this, we see that it does not suggest that at all. Because that is not even the context of the passage.
The context is who is producing fruit and who is not.
It was Israel. It was taken away from them, it is now being done by the gentiles. it will one day be taken away from them, and given back to Israel.
why? Because that was Gods covenant with Israel (namely her fathers)
We are not talking about producing fruit here, we are talking about individual salvation, in which unbelief does not get you there.
There are other places in the bible that talk about abiding in Christ that don't talk about fruit, but salvation and being ready...See the list below: Let me remind you, abiding means to remain...What happens if you don't abide or remain in Christ?
John 8:31
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
2 John 1:9
9 Whoever transgresses[d] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:28
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when[a] He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
John 15:10
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
1 John 2:6
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[a] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
1 John 2:24
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
1 John 3:24
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John 3:6
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
YES, eternal life is a gift from God, we do not earn or nor deserve it, however, John seems to think we must abide in Christ to keep it.
PS: Paul says the same thing, but in different words.
There are other places in the bible that talk about abiding in Christ that don't talk about fruit, but salvation and being ready...See the list below: Let me remind you, abiding means to remain...What happens if you don't abide or remain in Christ?
John 8:31
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
2 John 1:9
9 Whoever transgresses[d] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:28
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when[a] He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
John 15:10
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
1 John 2:6
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[a] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
1 John 2:24
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
1 John 3:24
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John 3:6
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
YES, eternal life is a gift from God, we do not earn or nor deserve it, however, John seems to think we must abide in Christ to keep it.
PS: Paul says the same thing, but in different words.
This is too complex for me to separate everything and respond...I've got other things to do then sit, process and edit yours and mine responses. All we can say is we disagree. I don't see anything here in the context about producing fruit, although I understand in the natural world you graft branches into trees to produce fruit...You must understand that fruit is used in two different ways, a new believer is a kind of fruit and a branch is not a fruit in itself. Fruit also can be the works we do. We are not talking works, like in John 15. Paul is talking about branches (people), converts, whom God grafts into the family, not the fruit of those branches. The olive tree is an illustration of God's family not about the fruit it produces (although I'm not denying it produces fruit).