IS LAW AND GRACE OPPOSITES?

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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#1
[FONT=&quot]I believe that the Law is not against Grace? For the past 1800 years most of us have been taught that the Old Testament was all about Law and the New Testament is all about Love. We might have even been led to believe that those of the OT were saved by works and today we are saved by grace...That it is either Law or Love. The scriptures show that the two are actually one. The God of yesterday still defines love the same way that He does today...through obedience to His Word.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Many Christians mimic this saying and keep to it veraciously – “We are no longer under obligation to keep God’s commandments any longer because we have grace, that is to say we have ‘Unmerited favor’”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When we mention “Law”….people have big issues. Probably first most because it is human nature to not like law or restrictions. Law in our minds equals restriction. There is no blessing in law. Laws restrain us from going 120 mph on the highway. Laws restrain us from killing somebody who really made us mad. We always look at laws as restraining.
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[FONT=&quot]Many Christians like to say this saying, “Keeping the law is legalistic and the only thing that God is concerned about is love.” In the 1960’s Love was a big deal.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If God’s only concern is “love”, ie..God is Love, then we need to see how God defines love and what are our responsibilities to it.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is keeping the commandments of God legalistic?
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[FONT=&quot]LEGALISM DEFINED – THE EFFORT TO KEEP THE DETAILS OF THE LAW FOR THE PURPOSE OF SALVATION.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]OBEDIENCE IS THE OPPOSITE OF LEGALISM – OBEDIENCE OF THE COMMANDMENTS ARE BECAUSE YOU ARE SAVED.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Our parents may have at one time said “If you are going to live in my house, you are going to play by my rules.” Are these parents being “legalistic”? Is that non-loving? Is that mean? Or is there something deeper in their heart that they are concerned about when they make this statement. Perhaps because the parents know what is best for their children?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the New Testament we have this thing called the Torah. The Pharisees and Saducees were so concerned about breaking the commandments that they made EXTRA laws, called fences, that they would put around the Laws of God, and what they did was “God said here is the boundaries.” The RELIGIOUS LEADERS created all these EXTRA laws to keep God’s people from breaking God’s own law. That was the Pharisee’s and Sadducee’s instructions. This is what is called “LEGALISM”. They put their laws above and beyond the laws God and they said you can’t come to God because God will not accept you unless you keep our laws on top of His laws.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So the issue of the day that Jesus and Paul are so adamantly opposed to is this set of laws, called legalism. God’s people couldn’t even enjoy the blessings that came along with keeping God’s laws because they never knew what they actually were. They had all these EXTRA laws piled on top called RELIGION.
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[FONT=&quot]Ephesians 2:8 -9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Tim 1:9-10 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These are examples of legalism that show Paul and Timothy and others were fighting against this legalism. They’re saying it is not about “works” and doing what the Pharisee’s are telling you. It is about the “circumcision sect” that is coming in here and telling you that everything we are teaching you is wrong and that you must be circumcised, you must do this and you must do that in order to be saved and Paul is saying it is not about any of those extra things they are piling on you. He is telling them they are twisting and manipulating and raping the word of God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Galations 3:5 - He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But is it not strange that most believe in the end when God judges the world that their good works hopefully outweight their bad works? The truth of the matter is that you cannot DO ANYTHING to please God when it comes to salvation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]LEGALISM in the New Testament was at an all time high. If you do not understand that basic premise that half the arguments in the New Testament, you will by default start pulling meaning out there that doesn’t exist. You must keep that in the back of your mind when you are reading the scriptures. It was all about legalism. Paul was fighting legalism and he was not fighting the Law of God. To say otherwise is ludricous. He is fighting legalism.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]People are starting to think that he is talking about God’s Law and he makes the point to say that is not what he is saying.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In keeping the commandments, my only reason is because I LOVE GOD, but for any other reason, then I would be legalistic. I want to please Him and obey Him. These reasons are not legalism. If I did it for some kind of extra favor, then I’ve lost all credit. Legalism kills and you are still under the law. If I thought I must do things because God would not love me, then it is done for the wrong reason.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is proving my salvation. Working out my salvation with fear and trembling because I love Him. It is not about the fine details, it is about my obedience and expression of my love to Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]IS GOD LEGALISTIC?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Lev. 22:31 Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WAS SALVATION GAINED THROUGH THE LAW?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A misconception is that many think that in the OT that people where saved by the law and that in the NT people are saved by grace.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Law is being pitted against grace. If you have this concept from the beginning, then the ENTIRE/WHOLE Bible will not make sense. If that is your foundation , not understanding correctly about grace and law, then everything else falls apart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WAS SALVATION GAINED THROUGH THE LAW?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]GOD IS SALVATION.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Exodus 15:2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation (H344 – y’shua) : he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]TRUST AND SALVATION[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Psalms 13:5 But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation (H3444-y’shua). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Psalms 78:22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation (H344 – y’shua)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation (H3444 – y’shua); I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation (H3444 – y’shua). Note: He trusted first, had fear of the Lord and then adds he has also “BECOME MY SALVATION”. We must trust first to believe that we are going to be set free. This is also called FAITH.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Psalms 25:20 O keep my soul, and deliver me: let me not be ashamed; for I put my trust in thee.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SALVATION HAS ALWAYS BEEN THROUGH FAITH AND IN WHO GOD SAYS HE IS.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There has never been a time in these 66 books we call the cononized scriptures where God says anything other than “I AM SALVATION”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What does the name Y’shua mean? It means Yahwey is my Salvation. It is not the law is my salvation![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Even Paul makes his point in Galatians 3:5-7 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What is Paul saying? What is the argument here in Galations? It is - what does it mean to be saved? Paul is telling them that these guys of the circumcise sect are wrong. Abraham, who was a Gentile, was not saved by all these laws that your religious leaders are telling you, but instead he was saved because he believed and put his trust in God. Paul is making the point that salvation came from belief and trusting and obeying the words of God. That is were Abraham’s salvation come from.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]GOD CANNOT BE LEGALISTIC JUST BECAUSE HE SAYS THAT YOU HAVE TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.
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[FONT=&quot]Some may argue here that is in the Old Testament. No.. It is in the Bible. Paul and the other writers would have a hard time with this concept Old Testament/New Testament. They wouldn’t get IT!!
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[FONT=&quot]WAS JESUS LEGALISTIC?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]IS JESUS SAYING THERE ARE TWO SET OF COMMANDMENTS?
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[FONT=&quot] I believe that is also a common thought. So I ask, is Jesus pitting Himself against God, His own Father’s commandments? Jesus came to show us who? The Father.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What did Jesus specifically come to tell us? What His Father’s will is. And in the Old Testament we see that God’s will is for us to keep His commandments.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus didn’t say I want you to keep my commandments, but not the Father’s commandments because those are messed up and I am going to nail them to the cross in a few years from now. No, He is saying I want you to keep the commandments the way there were meant to be kept, but they have been severely messed up for the past 1200 years.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:22-24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is John, a follower of Christ and a teacher of Christ and he is Jewish. When he is referring to the commandments, I assure you he is talking about the commandments of God. John is saying this is how you please God and show you love Him by keeping His commandments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You can say God’s commandments are legalistic, but the reality is do we have it right?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The argument is often that we only keep the commandments that are listed in the New Testament that Jesus talks about. The argument is that when Jesus says “My Commandments” He is talking about only specific commandments that he mentions in the New Testament. He mentions 9 out of the 10 commandments. But does that hold water to the scriptures?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perhaps the new believers are thinking that is a lot of commandments and not sure they can keep them. But what did Jesus say?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mat 11:25[/FONT][FONT=&quot] At that time Jesus answered and said,.....[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 11:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mat 11:29[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Mat 11:30[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Are you married? What did you do when dating your spouse to be? Did you put on your best, smell your best, smile your best, give your best. Was it too much effort or was it effortless? When you love someone things become easy. When you don’t love someone, you are always trying to find a way out.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Then why not do so for our groom? Jesus says we will find His yoke is easy, and that His burden is light. We give our best to the one’s we love and so in loving God and His Son, I keep the commandments. Keeping His commandments doesn’t give me salvation. Salvation is only through the shed blood of Y’shua/Jesus. (H3444 Yah’s Salvation – y’shua). His commandments are written in my heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Interesting….the testimony of Jesus Christ is connected with keeping the commandments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rev 14:12[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If deciding to keep the commandments of God is legalistic as some might say, then anyone who says that we should keep the commandments by default is legalistic. Since Jesus and the Father told us to keep His commandments that would make both of them legalistic.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Can you get around these scriptures and still say that believers are not told to keep the commandments?
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[FONT=&quot]Was God being legalistic when He told Adam and Eve in the garden that they could eat of everything BUT…..? That first but in scripture was for the benefit of Adam and Eve. God was not being legalistic because He gave instructions. He gave them EVERYTHING, BUT one tree.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So we can take this perspective that God said you can do anything, but these things because these are for your protection. God was saying “I know things you don’t know”. Why did He not tell them about the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Was it important for them to know the “what” there? Would it have made a difference if God had explained to them what would happen if they ate it? This is what the tree of knowledge of good and evil is all about….55 billion people will die. Do you think Adam and Eve would understand what 55 billion peoples lives ruined meant to them? God could have told them that the people would live in pain of numerous kinds, all because of sin.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So the question is “Will you take that fruit?” If Adam knew, he could have said, No I want eat of that tree…I am building a wall around that tree.” I am going to DO everything I can to obey what God tells me.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Are you willing to DO everything God says?
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[FONT=&quot]Are you trusting in Him for your Salvation? Do you love Him? Or do you keep on making up excuses (or being deceived by Satan) that you don’t need to obey God?[/FONT]
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
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#2
The law is simply an outward manifestation of the righteousness of God.

The points clearly to what right behaviour actually is, thus is makes sin look more sinful due to the comparison.

Law in and of itself cannot produce righteousness because true righteousness is from a pure a heart. A person could keep the external law from an impure motive just like the Pharisees in Jesus time.

That is why God imputes or counts faith as righteousness. Those who do the right thing from a pure heart are counted righteous by God. They are doing what they do by faith, not because of an impure motive.

Faith works by love and it is love that fulfills the law.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So is the law thrown away because of this faith?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

It is established in the heart, not of the letter but the spirit of the law.

The law is for the sinner because it points them to Christ. Those that are in Christ and who walk in the Spirit by a faith that works by love fulfill the law because they walk in righteousness.

It is very simple. :)
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#3
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.



Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
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#4
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
H

HearOhIsreal

Guest
#5
Amen. Obedience is just as important now as it was in the old times.
 
Apr 11, 2012
52
0
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#6
Interesting that you would present the Sabbath. Are you saying we should rest or not on the actual 7th day of the week? You probably know that I believe in all Ten Commandments. Jesus and the disciples didn't tell the new believers to keep the Sabbath....it was already being done. But Satan loves to keep us from obeying God/Y'shua and so we have millions of Christians who say the lord's day is Sunday or they say it just doesn't matter as long as they keep 1 out of 7 to rest on. We may not know why our Father said to do it His way, but not doing so may have an unseen future consequence.
How did Jesus obey the sabbath?
 
H

hislastwalk

Guest
#7
Grace plus anything is anything but grace.
 
H

hislastwalk

Guest
#8
Sloppy agape.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#11
obedience is better than sacrifice (OT)

Jesus said to do more than the Pharisees, do as they say not as they do

Go and learn what this means (Jesus telling the Pharisees) MERCY over obedience(law?)
Law shows us how corrupt we actually are, good however we can so easily abuse that grace and cross over and become self righteous and judgmental, Pharisaic disease lol

Grace sees past those faults, mercy - compassion, understanding etc hence now no condemnation and even better empowered to overcome by His spirit, to comfort others with the same comfort ourselves are comforted, by His Word.

Hmmm Gods has never abused me for my faults, teaching in itself how we are to be with others, after all God is love
 
H

HearOhIsreal

Guest
#12
Galatians says you fall from Christ when you rely on the law to make you righteous.
Yes. We do not obey the law to earn anything. We obey the law because we love Jesus. However, disobedience can separate us from God.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
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#13
Jews sometimes thought if they worked they would be part of the Kingdom. Gentiles are having the same trouble the Jews had, only in reverse. we say that If we have Christ in our hearts, works will just follow we don’t have to try for works. We need complete truth, not just one part.

In the OT there is much written about law, very little about grace. Yet, it was always clear that God is holy, we cannot make ourselves holy by what we do, grace is needed.


The people of the OT thought in a very concrete way, not in an abstract way. Even their language reflects that. The word love in Hebrew can be translated as bring gifts. Love in our language is an abstract idea. The OT reflects that idea. Some of the Jews felt if they did works, they would be part of the kingdom, not paying attention to the abstract.

In the NT much is made of the abstract. It reflects our way of thinking. Even in our languages doing is not related to abstract ideas. Yet in Romans 2:13 it talks of obedience. All through scripture grace saves, we need to obey. The epistles speak little about the need for obedience, lots about works not saving.


Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
 
H

hislastwalk

Guest
#14
Yes. We do not obey the law to earn anything. We obey the law because we love Jesus. However, disobedience can separate us from God.
You're reconciled by faith, not obedience.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
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#15
Womanlovestexas says:[
quote]
In the New Testament we have this thing called the Torah. The Pharisees and Saducees were so concerned about breaking the commandments that they made EXTRA laws, called fences, that they would put around the Laws of God, and what they did was “God said here is the boundaries.” The RELIGIOUS LEADERS created all these EXTRA laws to keep God’s people from breaking God’s own law. That was the Pharisee’s and Sadducee’s instructions. This is what is called “LEGALISM”. They put their laws above and beyond the laws God and they said you can’t come to God because God will not accept you unless you keep our laws on top of His laws.
The Torah is the first five books of the bible. I think you mean Talmud. It is a man written commenary on the bible and how they thought to carry out laws of scripture. Christ seemed to feel that it sometimes disregarded the principles of God the law was to express, for instance in Christ's teaching about fasting, and about picking grain on the sabbath.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#17
How did Jesus obey the sabbath?
Jesus is Immanuel "God with us". He is God in the flesh. God created the heavens and earth in six days and rested on the 7th day. His written instructions show up in the First Five Books of the Old Testament. There are multiple scriptures regarding the Sabbath in the Torah/Instructions. In the Ten Commandments he gave us the 4th commandment that starts with 'REMEMBER, and goes on to say keep the sabbath rest." Now we all know that God(Yawhey) was speaking and this rest was a literal day of no working or doing customary duties. It was an instruction for the benefit of His children. Even the foreigner that were with them (after leaving Egypt) was to also rest and do no work or customary duties. Does God change? Is He the same forever? Jesus being The Word would not have changed. The idea that Jesus is our rest is true, but how did He rest is your question? Do you believe that Jesus is God incarnate? I know that is some lofty spiritualized term I picked up when in the protestant church, but I do believe there is only one LORD.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

The impression I am getting from some here in CC is that the church is to rest on Sunday. But the thing I see in the world today is very few resting on Sunday. Buying and Selling and working, etc. Some say we are to worship everyday. Worship should be everyday, but one 24 hour period of resting from labor is all that He asks.

Jesus was born a Jew. He was a rabbi. The Jews still to this day keep rest on the Sabbath. Jesus obeyed the Sabbath by resting. The healings that He performed on the Sabbath were not labor or working. It was the legalistic Pharisee's that had fences put up by adding to God's Words/commandments so that the people would not break the commandment. The Pharisees were self-righteous and their man-made traditions is what Jesus called them out on. Jesus was perfect in every way. His example is what we want to follow. A Jewish Rabbi would not given himself as an example of not keeping the Sabbath rest. He is Lord of the Sabbath. So in the spiritual realm and in the physical realm He is Lord of the Sabbath.
 

TheAristocat

Senior Member
Oct 4, 2011
2,150
26
0
#19
[FONT=&quot]I believe that the Law is not against Grace? For the past 1800 years most of us have been taught that the Old Testament was all about Law and the New Testament is all about Love. We might have even been led to believe that those of the OT were saved by works and today we are saved by grace...That it is either Law or Love. The scriptures show that the two are actually one. The God of yesterday still defines love the same way that He does today...through obedience to His Word.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Many Christians mimic this saying and keep to it veraciously – “We are no longer under obligation to keep God’s commandments any longer because we have grace, that is to say we have ‘Unmerited favor’”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When we mention “Law”….people have big issues. Probably first most because it is human nature to not like law or restrictions. Law in our minds equals restriction. There is no blessing in law. Laws restrain us from going 120 mph on the highway. Laws restrain us from killing somebody who really made us mad. We always look at laws as restraining. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Many Christians like to say this saying, “Keeping the law is legalistic and the only thing that God is concerned about is love.” In the 1960’s Love was a big deal.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If God’s only concern is “love”, ie..God is Love, then we need to see how God defines love and what are our responsibilities to it.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is keeping the commandments of God legalistic? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]LEGALISM DEFINED – THE EFFORT TO KEEP THE DETAILS OF THE LAW FOR THE PURPOSE OF SALVATION.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]OBEDIENCE IS THE OPPOSITE OF LEGALISM – OBEDIENCE OF THE COMMANDMENTS ARE BECAUSE YOU ARE SAVED.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Our parents may have at one time said “If you are going to live in my house, you are going to play by my rules.” Are these parents being “legalistic”? Is that non-loving? Is that mean? Or is there something deeper in their heart that they are concerned about when they make this statement. Perhaps because the parents know what is best for their children?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the New Testament we have this thing called the Torah. The Pharisees and Saducees were so concerned about breaking the commandments that they made EXTRA laws, called fences, that they would put around the Laws of God, and what they did was “God said here is the boundaries.” The RELIGIOUS LEADERS created all these EXTRA laws to keep God’s people from breaking God’s own law. That was the Pharisee’s and Sadducee’s instructions. This is what is called “LEGALISM”. They put their laws above and beyond the laws God and they said you can’t come to God because God will not accept you unless you keep our laws on top of His laws.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So the issue of the day that Jesus and Paul are so adamantly opposed to is this set of laws, called legalism. God’s people couldn’t even enjoy the blessings that came along with keeping God’s laws because they never knew what they actually were. They had all these EXTRA laws piled on top called RELIGION. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ephesians 2:8 -9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Tim 1:9-10 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These are examples of legalism that show Paul and Timothy and others were fighting against this legalism. They’re saying it is not about “works” and doing what the Pharisee’s are telling you. It is about the “circumcision sect” that is coming in here and telling you that everything we are teaching you is wrong and that you must be circumcised, you must do this and you must do that in order to be saved and Paul is saying it is not about any of those extra things they are piling on you. He is telling them they are twisting and manipulating and raping the word of God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Galations 3:5 - He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But is it not strange that most believe in the end when God judges the world that their good works hopefully outweight their bad works? The truth of the matter is that you cannot DO ANYTHING to please God when it comes to salvation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]LEGALISM in the New Testament was at an all time high. If you do not understand that basic premise that half the arguments in the New Testament, you will by default start pulling meaning out there that doesn’t exist. You must keep that in the back of your mind when you are reading the scriptures. It was all about legalism. Paul was fighting legalism and he was not fighting the Law of God. To say otherwise is ludricous. He is fighting legalism.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]People are starting to think that he is talking about God’s Law and he makes the point to say that is not what he is saying.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In keeping the commandments, my only reason is because I LOVE GOD, but for any other reason, then I would be legalistic. I want to please Him and obey Him. These reasons are not legalism. If I did it for some kind of extra favor, then I’ve lost all credit. Legalism kills and you are still under the law. If I thought I must do things because God would not love me, then it is done for the wrong reason.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is proving my salvation. Working out my salvation with fear and trembling because I love Him. It is not about the fine details, it is about my obedience and expression of my love to Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]IS GOD LEGALISTIC?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Lev. 22:31 Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WAS SALVATION GAINED THROUGH THE LAW?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A misconception is that many think that in the OT that people where saved by the law and that in the NT people are saved by grace.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Law is being pitted against grace. If you have this concept from the beginning, then the ENTIRE/WHOLE Bible will not make sense. If that is your foundation , not understanding correctly about grace and law, then everything else falls apart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WAS SALVATION GAINED THROUGH THE LAW?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]GOD IS SALVATION.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Exodus 15:2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation (H344 – y’shua) : he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]TRUST AND SALVATION[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Psalms 13:5 But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation (H3444-y’shua). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Psalms 78:22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation (H344 – y’shua)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation (H3444 – y’shua); I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation (H3444 – y’shua). Note: He trusted first, had fear of the Lord and then adds he has also “BECOME MY SALVATION”. We must trust first to believe that we are going to be set free. This is also called FAITH.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Psalms 25:20 O keep my soul, and deliver me: let me not be ashamed; for I put my trust in thee.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SALVATION HAS ALWAYS BEEN THROUGH FAITH AND IN WHO GOD SAYS HE IS.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There has never been a time in these 66 books we call the cononized scriptures where God says anything other than “I AM SALVATION”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What does the name Y’shua mean? It means Yahwey is my Salvation. It is not the law is my salvation![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Even Paul makes his point in Galatians 3:5-7 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What is Paul saying? What is the argument here in Galations? It is - what does it mean to be saved? Paul is telling them that these guys of the circumcise sect are wrong. Abraham, who was a Gentile, was not saved by all these laws that your religious leaders are telling you, but instead he was saved because he believed and put his trust in God. Paul is making the point that salvation came from belief and trusting and obeying the words of God. That is were Abraham’s salvation come from.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]GOD CANNOT BE LEGALISTIC JUST BECAUSE HE SAYS THAT YOU HAVE TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Some may argue here that is in the Old Testament. No.. It is in the Bible. Paul and the other writers would have a hard time with this concept Old Testament/New Testament. They wouldn’t get IT!! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WAS JESUS LEGALISTIC?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]IS JESUS SAYING THERE ARE TWO SET OF COMMANDMENTS? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I believe that is also a common thought. So I ask, is Jesus pitting Himself against God, His own Father’s commandments? Jesus came to show us who? The Father.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What did Jesus specifically come to tell us? What His Father’s will is. And in the Old Testament we see that God’s will is for us to keep His commandments.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus didn’t say I want you to keep my commandments, but not the Father’s commandments because those are messed up and I am going to nail them to the cross in a few years from now. No, He is saying I want you to keep the commandments the way there were meant to be kept, but they have been severely messed up for the past 1200 years.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:22-24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is John, a follower of Christ and a teacher of Christ and he is Jewish. When he is referring to the commandments, I assure you he is talking about the commandments of God. John is saying this is how you please God and show you love Him by keeping His commandments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You can say God’s commandments are legalistic, but the reality is do we have it right?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The argument is often that we only keep the commandments that are listed in the New Testament that Jesus talks about. The argument is that when Jesus says “My Commandments” He is talking about only specific commandments that he mentions in the New Testament. He mentions 9 out of the 10 commandments. But does that hold water to the scriptures?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perhaps the new believers are thinking that is a lot of commandments and not sure they can keep them. But what did Jesus say?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mat 11:25[/FONT][FONT=&quot] At that time Jesus answered and said,.....[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 11:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mat 11:29[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Mat 11:30[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Are you married? What did you do when dating your spouse to be? Did you put on your best, smell your best, smile your best, give your best. Was it too much effort or was it effortless? When you love someone things become easy. When you don’t love someone, you are always trying to find a way out.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Then why not do so for our groom? Jesus says we will find His yoke is easy, and that His burden is light. We give our best to the one’s we love and so in loving God and His Son, I keep the commandments. Keeping His commandments doesn’t give me salvation. Salvation is only through the shed blood of Y’shua/Jesus. (H3444 Yah’s Salvation – y’shua). His commandments are written in my heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Interesting….the testimony of Jesus Christ is connected with keeping the commandments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rev 14:12[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If deciding to keep the commandments of God is legalistic as some might say, then anyone who says that we should keep the commandments by default is legalistic. Since Jesus and the Father told us to keep His commandments that would make both of them legalistic.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Can you get around these scriptures and still say that believers are not told to keep the commandments? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Was God being legalistic when He told Adam and Eve in the garden that they could eat of everything BUT…..? That first but in scripture was for the benefit of Adam and Eve. God was not being legalistic because He gave instructions. He gave them EVERYTHING, BUT one tree.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So we can take this perspective that God said you can do anything, but these things because these are for your protection. God was saying “I know things you don’t know”. Why did He not tell them about the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Was it important for them to know the “what” there? Would it have made a difference if God had explained to them what would happen if they ate it? This is what the tree of knowledge of good and evil is all about….55 billion people will die. Do you think Adam and Eve would understand what 55 billion peoples lives ruined meant to them? God could have told them that the people would live in pain of numerous kinds, all because of sin.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So the question is “Will you take that fruit?” If Adam knew, he could have said, No I want eat of that tree…I am building a wall around that tree.” I am going to DO everything I can to obey what God tells me.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Are you willing to DO everything God says? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Are you trusting in Him for your Salvation? Do you love Him? Or do you keep on making up excuses (or being deceived by Satan) that you don’t need to obey God?[/FONT]
Haven't read everything you've written, but read about 50%. So far I agree with it. When people look at Paul, they say, "Paul taught against keeping the old testament laws." But then Paul himself demonstrates later by obeying one of the laws that he in fact does not teach against keeping the old testament laws. In fact he obeyed that one law for the very purpose of demonstrating that. The Bible tells us this.

I think we have to understand that there were two main law sets in the Old/New Testaments: the laws given us by God, and the laws created by Man based on Man's interpretation of God's laws. When Paul or Jesus condemn the law, they are not condemning God's Law; they are condemning Man's Law and misuse of God's Law. For instance, in one passage it implies that Jesus broke the Sabbath, but the only "Sabbath" he broke was the Sabbath of Man's Law - not the Sabbath in God's Law. The priests transgressed the Sabbath of Man's Law because of its many specific restrictions and their priestly labors on the Sabbath day, but they did not transgress the Sabbath of God's Law because the Sabbath of God's Law allowed for priestly labors just as it allowed for people to be circumcised on the Sabbath without transgressing it.