Is Lucifer actually Satan?

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Dec 12, 2013
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#41
Satan is NOT an angel anymore. He is the devil...
Just want to point out something Blue.....

The Adversary and Slanderer

The original Hebrew term Satan is a generic noun meaning "accuser" or "adversary"The Devil is a term or designation given unto Satan who is the accuser and adversary of Jesus and man...

I agree he is not an angel in the sense of what and how we view an angel....he was the anointed CHERUB that covered and when he fell he took upon his fallen form...there is a heavenly form and an earthly fallen form......He lost his heavenly form and now abides in his fallen form.....yet is still the same entity....
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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#42
Yeah that's what I meant. That he isn't in angel form anymore, with wings and such. :) He is most definitely in his fallen form. Whatever that looks like.. *shudder*

Just want to point out something Blue.....

The Adversary and Slanderer

The original Hebrew term Satan is a generic noun meaning "accuser" or "adversary"The Devil is a term or designation given unto Satan who is the accuser and adversary of Jesus and man...

I agree he is not an angel in the sense of what and how we view an angel....he was the anointed CHERUB that covered and when he fell he took upon his fallen form...there is a heavenly form and an earthly fallen form......He lost his heavenly form and now abides in his fallen form.....yet is still the same entity....
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#43
I disagree. Satan is NOT still in the form of an angel. He's a demon now. He isn't all shiny and pretty like he used to be. He is ugly and evil and in no way at all, resembles an angel.. As for still having the powers God gave him as lucifer, I think he doesn't have any powers except those that God allows him to use from time to time.
If that is true, how did he deceive Eve; and how does he deceive men and women in our time.

He still has the appearance of light and beauty and his only ugliness is his rebellion against God. Don't be fooled by cartoon characitures.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#44
Lucifer is not mentioned in the Hebrew or Greek. Thus he can mean whom you like.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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#45
He can imitate an angel, doesn't mean he still is one.. Apparently he was in serpent (snake) form when he deceived Eve. She was not yet aware of who he was, and naively believed him. Satan can probably even appear as Jesus if he wanted to. :eek:


If that is true, how did he deceive Eve; and how does he deceive men and women in our time.

He still has the appearance of light and beauty and his only ugliness is his rebellion against God. Don't be fooled by cartoon characitures.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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#46
I'm not fooled by anything. And I don't even watch cartoons.. lol


If that is true, how did he deceive Eve; and how does he deceive men and women in our time.

He still has the appearance of light and beauty and his only ugliness is his rebellion against God. Don't be fooled by cartoon characitures.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#47
He is also called that OLD DRAGON.......just to toss a wrench in occasionally HAH
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#48
He can imitate an angel, doesn't mean he still is one...
Evidently you do not wish to believe what the Bible says about Satan. He does not need to IMITATE being an angel just like you do not need to imitate that you are human. Study the matter thoroughly before responding any further.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#49
Lucifer is not mentioned in the Hebrew or Greek. Thus he can mean whom you like.

The Hebrew הֵלֵ֣ל means Light-bringer, and is translated as Lucifer many Jewish Tenach translations as well as Christian Bibles.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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#51
The bible says Lucifer rebelled against God, and got kicked out of heaven and became satan. THE DEVIL. He is no longer an angel. And he certainly is not in angelic form anymore. If he WAS still an angel, he'd still be in heaven. He appears as an angel, to fool people and indeed he did that to Eve, who probably didn't know the difference between an angel and a serpent.

Evidently you do not wish to believe what the Bible says about Satan. He does not need to IMITATE being an angel just like you do not need to imitate that you are human. Study the matter thoroughly before responding any further.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#52
The bible says Lucifer rebelled against God, and got kicked out of heaven and became satan. THE DEVIL. He is no longer an angel. And he certainly is not in angelic form anymore. If he WAS still an angel, he'd still be in heaven. He appears as an angel, to fool people and indeed he did that to Eve, who probably didn't know the difference between an angel and a serpent.
You are really confused about this matter, and you failed to study up before responding. Which means wilful ignorance. So let's look at just one passage from Revelation 12:

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Kindly notice that "his angels" is mentioned twice. So if the Devil (who is also called Satan, the Great Dragon, and the Old Serpent) is not an angel, how could he possibly have an army of angels at his beck and call? And how can a spirit being transform himself into "angel of light" if he is not an evil angel to begin with?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#53
The Hebrew הֵלֵ֣ל means Light-bringer, and is translated as Lucifer many Jewish Tenach translations as well as Christian Bibles.
helal does not mean the same as Lucifer, which is a Latin term. Helal was the Babylonian emperor who claimed to rise among the stars and be a light bringer. Lucifer means light bearer.Any connection of helal with Satan is purely post-NT fantasy
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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#54
There was war in heaven, yes. :) But that was with Lucifer and the angels who would eventually rebel with him against God. They did not win the war, and were cast down to become the devil and his demons.. As Lucifer, he had an army of angels. But as satan, he doesn't have an army of angels, he has legions of DEMONS.


You are really confused about this matter, and you failed to study up before responding. Which means wilful ignorance. So let's look at just one passage from Revelation 12:

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Kindly notice that "his angels" is mentioned twice. So if the Devil (who is also called Satan, the Great Dragon, and the Old Serpent) is not an angel, how could he possibly have an army of angels at his beck and call? And how can a spirit being transform himself into "angel of light" if he is not an evil angel to begin with?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#55
helal does not mean the same as Lucifer, which is a Latin term. Helal was the Babylonian emperor who claimed to rise among the stars and be a light bringer. Lucifer means light bearer.Any connection of helal with Satan is purely post-NT fantasy

Where did you find this revelation? Certainly you did NOT find it in a lexicon!
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#56
Originally Posted by valiant
helal does not mean the same as Lucifer, which is a Latin term. Helal was the Babylonian emperor who claimed to rise among the stars and be a light bringer. Lucifer means light bearer.Any connection of helal with Satan is purely post-NT fantasy
Where did you find this revelation? Certainly you did NOT find it in a lexicon!
I found it in Isaiah 14 taking it literally alongside Babylonian myths Try taking the Scriptures literally without the modern spin
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#57
You are really confused about this matter, and you failed to study up before responding. Which means wilful ignorance. So let's look at just one passage from Revelation 12:

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Kindly notice that "his angels" is mentioned twice. So if the Devil (who is also called Satan, the Great Dragon, and the Old Serpent) is not an angel, how could he possibly have an army of angels at his beck and call? And how can a spirit being transform himself into "angel of light" if he is not an evil angel to begin with?
You just basically made "no sense",as for "how" do you really believe that God would let satan leave with "all" he had before?
Think even in terms of Adam and Eve did they leave the garden of Eden with "all" they had before sinning?
It's the same with satan sure he left with "friends/followers" but he certainly "lost power" and "glory" otherwise he would have sought to "return" to heaven again but evidently "he couldn't" not even to "make war" again with God in that way.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#58
Just want to point out something Blue.....

The Adversary and Slanderer

The original Hebrew term Satan is a generic noun meaning "accuser" or "adversary"The Devil is a term or designation given unto Satan who is the accuser and adversary of Jesus and man...

I agree he is not an angel in the sense of what and how we view an angel....he was the anointed CHERUB that covered and when he fell he took upon his fallen form...there is a heavenly form and an earthly fallen form......He lost his heavenly form and now abides in his fallen form.....yet is still the same entity....
No kidding man,not hard to figure that "last" part out lol.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#59
There was war in heaven, yes. :) But that was with Lucifer and the angels who would eventually rebel with him against God. They did not win the war, and were cast down to become the devil and his demons.. As Lucifer, he had an army of angels. But as satan, he doesn't have an army of angels, he has legions of DEMONS.

You are so right blue. The war in heaven took place before the Garden of Eden. Satan and his demons are no longer allowed in heaven. They are in the heavenly realm on earth. Sometimes the language is confusing because of this. Look at Job, heaven and earth seem to swap places. We need to quit thinking heaven can only mean one place.

As to the accuser, I don't believe God is taking daily accusations against His creation. Satan has already made all the accusations, and God is proving him wrong. Satan is just a shell of his former self. His only power is what God allows. He is called prince of the power of air. Meaning: he can transmit his thoughts into humans. That is all he is allowed. That is the good news.

The bad new is: By the standard of most humans, he does not exist. He put thoughts into humans and makes them thinks those ideas are their own. He won't tempt someone unless he see a weakness in them. He can look at us and tell what our dispositions to sin are. With that power, he rules this world system. He steers mankind where he wants them.

This all gives us something to overcome. God could have put Satan on Mars, instead of earth. The devil and his cohorts do not need oxygen to breath. Why do you suppose God put them on earth, where He was doing a new work with mankind. God uses them as tools, to do His bidding. The fact that God can bind them and loosen them at will shows this.
 
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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
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#60
I found it in Isaiah 14 taking it literally alongside Babylonian myths Try taking the Scriptures literally without the modern spin

I do take Scripture literally and have been advocating doing so in many posts on many threads.

Taking Scripture literally does NOT involve inventing new meanings for words!

One of the things that makes Isaiah difficult to interpret is the fact that he did not fully understand his own prophesy.

This is evidenced by frequent Juxtaposition of time and place.

Isa 14:1-11
For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
KJV


1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

Here the declamation against Babylon begun in Is 13:1 is interrupted with a Juxtaposition in time and place.

With the Assyrian captivity having already happened, Isaiah is here predicting a restoration as he does again in chapter 66.

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

Here Isaiah predicts the fall of Babylon, as he does in more detail in chapters 44 and 45.

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

Here we have another juxtaposition in time.
This is the peace Beginning with the release from captivity by Cyrus and continuing through the time of Ezra and Nememiah.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

The declamation against Babylon is resumed.

Isa 14:12-14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
KJV


How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Here we have another juxtaposition of time and place and we find a brief declamation against Satan

IMO this is the same event Jesus remarks about in Luke 10:18

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
KJV


Isa 14:15
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
KJV

This is a transition verse applying to both Satam and the king of Babylon.

Isa 14:16-23
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
22 For I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the Lord.
23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the Lord of hosts.
KJV

Here we have the conclusion of the declamation against Babylon.

Isa 14:24-32
24 The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27 For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.

Here Isaiah resumes his theme of verses 1-3 with a brief declamation against Assyria.

29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

Here we have another juxtaposition of time and place withadeclamation against Ashkalon and Tyre, who are not even named as such.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.
KJV

Words of comfort and promise of restoration after judgement.

This analysis of Isa 14 is my own but copied from another thread