Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,449
744
113
Yes and No.

JEHOVAH, the Ancient of Days, is the Person/Being of the Father.

Jesus JEHOVAH, the son of man, is the Person/Being of the Son.

The Holy Spirit of JEHOVAH, is the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost.

JEHOVAH Elohiym is the eternal family/relationship. JEHOVAH is the singular eternal family name, while Elohiym (Gods, trio) are the individual Persons/Beings that exist in that eternal family/relationship, Matt. 28:19; 1 Jhn. 5:7,8.

1. JEHOVAH, "the LORD" (Gen. 19:24b.; Zec. 3:2b.), "the Ancient of days" (Dan. 7:9,13,22) is "the only true God" (Jhn. 17:3; τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεὸν), "God" (Jhn. 1:1b.; τὸν θεόν), "thy God" (Heb. 1:9; ὁ θεός σου), "God the Father" (2 Jhn. 1:3; θεοῦ πατρός) the "person" (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3) identified in the beginning as the "God said" (Gen. 1:6), for it was by Him that Revelation says, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Rev. 4:11).

2. Jesus JEHOVAH (Gen.49:18; Exo. 14:13; 2 Chr. 20:17; Jon. 2:9; Psa. 119:174 HOT) or JEHOVAH Immanuel (see Psa. 46:7,11 HOT)), "the LORD" (Gen. 19:24a.; Zec. 3:2a.), "the son of man" (Dan. 7:13), "the only begotten" (Jhn. 1:14,18, 3:16,18; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9, is basically monogene (μονογενῆ; Jhn. 3:16; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9) or monogenes (μονογενὴς; Jhn. 1:18) or monogenous (μονογενοῦς; Jhn. 1:14, 3:18)), "the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father" (2 Jhn. 1:3; Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ πατρός) is not "the only true God" (Jhn. 17:3), but is "the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3; χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ), being "the Word was God" (Jhn. 1:1c.; θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος), who is "O God" (Heb. 1:9; ὁ θεός), the "just person" (Matt. 27:24, "person", 2 Cor. 2:10) indentified in the beginning as "God made" (Gen. 1:7) on behalf of the Father's direction (Pro. 8:22-36; Exo. 20:12), for it was by him (the Son) that John says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (Jhn. 1:3), that Ephesians says, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:" (Eph. 3:9), that Colossians says, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" (Col. 1:16), that Hebrews says, "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" (Heb. 1:2), the very, "I AM THAT I AM" (Exo. 3:14), the great "I am" (Jhn. 8:58; ἐγὼ εἰμί), the very "fellow" (Zec. 13:7) of the Father's person, and who comes in the name of His Father (Jhn. 5:43).

3. The Holy Spirit of JEHOVAH (Luk. 4:18), "his Spirit" (Isa. 48:16), "the LORD" (Zec. 3:2c.), the "another Comforter" (Jhn. 14:6), even "he", "the spirit of truth" (Jhn. 14:17, 15:26, 16:13), "God" (Acts 5:4), identified in the beginning as "the Spirit of God moved" (Gen. 1:2) and "God saw" (Gen. 1 throughout, the eternal Witness who inspired the scriptures; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21), by which/whom everything is "created" (Psa. 104:30) and "made" (Job 33:4), whose nature is a mystery left unspoken of in scripture, but is the person who does "not speak of himself" (Jhn. 16:13), but comes in the name of the Son (Jhn. 14:26).

The eternal Heavenly Trio - family JEHOVAH Elohiym, over all creation as "Godhead".

The trio "Jones", or "Jones" family.

Three Persons/Beings working together as united family without dischord, but rather thinking and acting as harmonious chord.

Owning "Jones" Construction, they are all "Boss" (like "God") over their employees.

In fact the Father "Jones" can be "with" Son "Jones" Jr at a construction site, and an employee come up to them two, and say "Boss", and both would respond together, because "Boss" (Son) was with the "Boss" (Father) at that moment, thus in John 1:1 "God" was "with" "God".

Even in maths, this works, because of something called "set theory".

Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Set Deity)

Angels (created), mankind & lesser creatures (Set creation)

Set Deity is Head over Set creation. Yet Set Deity is not a single Person/Being, but a group, as all individuals together which are creation is not a single person/being but a group.

Yet, in (Set Deity) as (Head) are three Persons/Beings which individually or together are "Head" over creation.

Yet in (Set Deity) there is also heirarchy (Gen. 41:40).

Set Father

Set Son

Set Holy Spirit.

Now for "only true God" and "only begotten":

Mono

Gene

Mono is simply "one", "only".

Mono is used in conjunction or connection, gene.

Gene refers to race or nature (that which makes up the content of essence), that which comes about or exists through/from another.

It's used this way even coming down to our English:

"gene (n.) 1911, from German Gen, coined 1905 by Danish scientist Wilhelm Ludvig Johannsen (1857-1927), from Greek genea "generation, race" (from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget"). De Vries had earlier called them pangenes. Gene pool is attested from 1946." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/Gene

That is why the Father is called:

monon alethinon theon, ton theon

And because the Son is in the express image of the Father, is called:

monogene, logos en o theos

The Father's nature is His own, underived ("true"*), but the Son, because He is the Son has that same nature because of the Father.

True - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/true

Authentic - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/authentic

Original - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/original

It means underived.

So monogene in connection with monon alethinon theon means that the nature of the Son is of the Father and he is the only Son of the Father with that nature of the Father.

Created Angels and humans are sons, but not of that same nature as the Father and Son are.

In other words:

The Father is "The only true (underived in nature) God"

The Son is "The only begotten (derives His nature from the Father because He is the Son) God"

Remember, "only begotten" has nothing to do with time, or creation, or coming into existence in these contexts, but and only deals with the existing nature of the Son in relation to the Father.

I know what people think when I say that, but they need to understand the definition of what is said by saying it.
I noticed you have a fondness for mathematics.

Let A = archangels
Let B = The Word
Does A = B?

In Set Theory, YHWH cannot be defined or bounded, hence, YHWH cannot be a member of any bounded set.
YHWH cannot be a member of the set of angels, [A]. YHWH is always beyond mathematical definition.
 
Oct 28, 2022
322
53
28
YHWH is always beyond mathematical definition.
You are defining a JEHOVAH Elohiym unknown in scripture:

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Numbers.

Godhead is indeed placed in a 'set' above and outside of all creation, another 'set'.
 
Oct 28, 2022
322
53
28
Let A = archangels
Let B = The Word
Does A = B?
Your "A" is plurality "archangels", so not it cannot equal your "B", "the (definite article, singular) Word".

My equation was specific and properly ordered, and included the "if". Yours is just silly and nonsensical.
 
Oct 28, 2022
322
53
28
Here is a question for you.

Genesis 3:8-9
Now they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”

The Father is Spirit, not flesh and blood.

The Word can take on a human appearance or even an angelic appearance.

If the Father is Spirit, how can the Father be walking in Eden?

John 6:46
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Has the Word been seen and heard in the Old Testament?
You are mistaken, your translation is mistaken, and as such your mistaken notion and faulty translation leads to your faulty conclusion and incorrect question.

It was the Son in the garden, as it plainly says, in the Bible (KJB):
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.​

Gen_3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.​

"the voice of the LORD God" = the Son. The Son is the "Word", and the "voice" of the Father, as He speaks on the Father's behalf.

Your other premise is also faulty, in that you think the word "spirit" means that God the Father (and possibly even angels) is without "form", "shape", "likeness", "body", etc. God the Father has a "form", "shape", and "nature" and His mind (spirit) controls that form/body/nature, even as we are designed after His "image" and "likeness" (that He and the Son both have). The Son is in the "express image" of the Father, like a chirality.

The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe. That is pantheism, or panentheism, both of which are gross heresies and destroys the Gospel itself and would even place God in the sinner, including satan himself, which is a violation of Revelation 3:20, etc. God is omnipresent through omniscience (Psalms 139).

Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.​
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.​
Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.​

He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

God has hairs on His head, Daniel 7:9; and has hands, Exodus 33:22; and has feet, Exodus 24:10; and loins [H4975; waist to upper thighs, see 1 Kings 18:46, etc], Ezekiel 1:27; a face, Matthew 18:10; a heart, Genesis 6:6; parts, Exodus 22:32; a form, Philippians 2:6; shape, John 5:37; is a Person, Hebrews 1:3; is a Soul, Jeremiah 5:9; and is a Spirit, thus has a mind, Matthew 12:28.

See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:10).

The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c), a Person/Being, "He", having a personality, but His nature is a mystery not spoken of in scripture inspite of what Roman Catholic def. 'trinitarianism' wrongly teaches ('una substantia', 'perfectly one superabound', &c).

Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.​

So, yes the Word (Son, Michael, the Archangel, Angel of the LORD, Jesus JEHOVAH) was seen in the OT. As I stated earlier, so was the Father, in vision, by Daniel (Daniel 7).

"... PERSONALITY OF GOD

MAN was made in the image of God. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him." Gen.i,26,27. See also chap.ix,6; 1Cor.xi,7. Those who deny the personality of God, say that "image" here does not mean physical form, but moral image, and they make this the grand starting point to prove the immortality of all men. The argument stands thus: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is an immortal being. Third, therefore all men are immortal. But this mode of reasoning would also prove man omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and thus clothe mortal man with all the attributes of the deity. Let us try it: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Third, therefore, man is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That which proves too much, proves nothing to the point, therefore the position that the image of God means his moral image, cannot be sustained. As proof that God is a person, read his own words to Moses: "And the Lord said, Behold there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock; and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my [2] back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Ex.xxxiii,21-23. See also chap.xxiv,9-11. Here God tells Moses that he shall see his form. To say that God made it appear to Moses that he saw his form, when he has no form, is charging God with adding to falsehood a sort of juggling deception upon his servant Moses. {1861 JW, PERGO 1.1}

But the skeptic thinks he sees a contradiction between verse 11, which says that the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, and verse 20, which states that Moses could not see his face. But let Num.xii,5-8 remove the difficulty. "And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words. If there be a prophet among you, I, the Lord, will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently." {1861 JW, PERGO 2.1}

The great and dreadful God came down, wrapped in a cloud of glory. This cloud could be seen, but not the face which possesses more dazzling brightness than a thousand suns. Under these circumstances Moses was permitted to draw near and converse with God face to face, or mouth to mouth, even apparently. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.2}

Says the prophet Daniel, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hairs of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Chap.vii,9. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and [3] there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom." Verses 13, 14. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.3}

Here is a sublime description of the action of two personages; viz, God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ. Deny their personality, and there is not a distinct idea in these quotations from Daniel. In connection with this quotation read the apostle's declaration that the Son was in the express image of his Father's person. "God, who at sundry times, and in divers manners, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person." Heb.i,1-3. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.1}

..."
 
Oct 28, 2022
322
53
28
Yes and no, you say?

...

Has the Word been seen and heard in the Old Testament?
"...

We here add the testimony of Christ. "And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." John v,37. See also Phil.ii,6. To say that the Father has not a personal shape, seems the most pointed contradiction of plain scripture terms.

OBJECTION. - "God is a Spirit." John iv,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.2}

ANSWER. - Angels are also spirits [Ps.civ,4], yet those that visited Abram and Lot, lay down, ate, and took hold of Lot's hand. They were spirit beings. So is God a Spirit being. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.3}

OBJ. - God is everywhere. Proof. Ps.cxxxix,1-8. He is as much in every place as in any one place. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.4}

ANS. - 1. God is everywhere by virtue of his omniscience, as will be seen by the very words of David referred to above. Verses 1-6. "O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a [4] word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high; I cannot attain unto it." {1861 JW, PERGO 3.5}

2. God is everywhere by virtue of his Spirit, which is his representative, and is manifested wherever he pleases, as will be seen by the very words the objector claims, referred to above. Verses 7-10. "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." {1861 JW, PERGO 4.1}

God is in heaven. This we are taught in the Lord's prayer. "Our Father which art in heaven." Matt.vi,9; Luke xi,2. But if God is as much in every place as he is in any one place, then heaven is also as much in every place as it is in any one place, and the idea of going to heaven is all a mistake. We are all in heaven; and the Lord's prayer, according to this foggy theology simply means, Our Father which art everywhere, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is everywhere. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.2}

Again, Bible readers have believed that Enoch and Elijah were really taken up to God in heaven. But if God and heaven be as much in every place as in any one place, this is all a mistake. They were not translated. And all that is said about the chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and the attending whirlwind to take Elijah up into heaven, was a useless parade. They only evaporated, and a misty vapor passed through the entire universe. This is all of Enoch and Elijah that the mind can possibly grasp, admitting that God and heaven are [5] no more in any one place than in every place. But it is said of Elijah that he "went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2Kings ii,11. And of Enoch it is said that he "walked with God, and was not, for God took him." Gen.v,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.3}

Jesus is said to be on the right hand of the Majesty on high." Heb.i,3. "So, then, after the Lord had spoken unto them he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark xvi,19. But if heaven be everywhere, and God everywhere, then Christ's ascension up to heaven, at the Father's right hand, simply means that he went everywhere! He was only taken up where the cloud hid him from the gaze of his disciples, and then evaporated and went everywhere! So that instead of the lovely Jesus, so beautifully described in both Testaments, we have only a sort of essence dispersed through the entire universe. And in harmony with this rarified theology, Christ's second advent, or his return, would be the condensation of this essence to some locality, say the mount of Olivet! Christ arose from the dead with a physical form. "He is not here," said the angel, "for he is risen as he said." Matt.xxviii,6. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.1}

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail! And they came and held him by the feet, and they worshiped him." Verse 9. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.2}

"Behold my hands and my feet," said Jesus to those who stood in doubt of his resurrection, "that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honey-comb, and he took it and did eat before them." Luke xxiv,39-43. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.3} [6]

After Jesus addressed his disciples on the mount of Olivet, he was taken up from them, and a cloud received him out of their sight. "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts i,9-11. J. W. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.1}

IMMATERIALITY

THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian's God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all! {1861 JW, PERGO 6.2}

O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!! [7]

who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.3}

The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.1}

Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.2}

As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim, we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.3}

What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.4}

What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being "the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of his person." He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.5}

What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, [8] and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their "everlasting inheritance." With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.6}

We choose all substance - what remains

The mystical sectarian gains;

All that each claims, each shall possess,

Nor grudge each other's happiness.

An immaterial God they choose,

For such a God we have no use;

An immaterial heaven and hell,

In such a heaven we cannot dwell.

We claim the earth, the air, and sky,

And all the starry worlds on high;

Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,

And bodies made of flesh and bones.

Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,

When once redeemed from Adam's fall;

All things are ours, and we shall be,

The Lord's to all eternity. {1861 JW, PERGO 8.1} ..." - Personality of God, by James Springer White, 1861, pages 1.1 - 8.1
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,449
744
113
Your "A" is plurality "archangels", so not it cannot equal your "B", "the (definite article, singular) Word".

My equation was specific and properly ordered, and included the "if". Yours is just silly and nonsensical.
Let A= archangel
Let B = The Word

Since we have singular identities.

Can A = B?
 
Oct 28, 2022
322
53
28
Let A= archangel
Let B = The Word

Since we have singular identities.

Can A = B?
It 'can', but not always will.

[1] If by 'archangel' it refers only to the uncreated Angel of the LORD, or Michael the archangel, referring to the Son, yes, but,

[2] If by 'archangel' it refers to any created being, like Lucifer, Gabriel, 'Herald', etc, then no.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,449
744
113
It 'can', but not always will.

[1] If by 'archangel' it refers only to the uncreated Angel of the LORD, or Michael the archangel, referring to the Son, yes, but,

[2] If by 'archangel' it refers to any created being, like Lucifer, Gabriel, 'Herald', etc, then no.
I disagree.
Let A= archangel
Let B = The Word

Since we have singular identities.

Can A = B?

Equality is impossible.

By definition, an archangel is a created entity.

By definition, The Word is described below.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him (The Word), and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

The Word is eternal, before and after the Incarnation,

Everything was created through The Word and for the Word.

The Son is a title, a name that applied to The Word, whilst in human form, i.e., from Bethlehem to Calvary.

The Word walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve.

The Word was YHWH.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,661
13,066
113
They all, Son and other beings, are all "angels" (messengers) for the Father.
More HERETICAL NONSENSE from you. Why don't you quit while there is still time to repent?

Jesus -- the Son of God (God the Son) -- is also "the Word of God". And the Word of God is the CREATOR of all things, and all creatures, including angels and archangels. While He was designated as "the Angel of the LORD" in the OT He is called "GOD" in the NT, and that should shut up all further discussion and arguments. Thomas exclaimed "My Lord and My God" and so should you. God the Father said to all the angels "Let all the angels of God worship Him" (Heb 1:6).
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,449
744
113
No, that's your private definition. I provided actual definitions, from multiple dictionaries, encyclopedias, scholars, etc.
The text is the primary source.

Opinions, scholars, theology, are secondary sources, and nearly all have embedded interpretations.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,058
518
113
It's called a port-man-teau, and/or a play on words.

Advent + Advantageous = Adventageous.

I know how to spell, and I did it on purpose.
I know full well what a "port-man-teau word is. I leaned it in college in 1970. The word is French for a suitcase. An example is our English word "Brunch." The word breakfast is combined with the word "lunch" to get Brunch. Or "anklet, (ankle plus bracelet).

Now that I think about it, you've made Jesus into a port-man-teau word. Jesus/angel equals Michael the arc angel. I know this example is "lame," but I think you get the idea in your "errant" theology.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Oct 28, 2022
322
53
28
The text is the primary source.

Opinions, scholars, theology, are secondary sources, and nearly all have embedded interpretations.
Yeah, which is what I said with the 'etc' already provided long before the dictionaries, and encyclopedias and lexicons which are citing the exact same scriptures I gave to you, already.

Mal 3:1 הנני שׁלח מלאכי ופנה־דרך לפני ופתאם יבוא אל־היכלו האדון אשׁר־אתם מבקשׁים ומלאך הברית אשׁר־אתם חפצים הנה־בא אמר יהוה צבאות׃

Mal 3:1 ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει κύριος παντοκράτωρ.

Text, plainly given.
 
Oct 28, 2022
322
53
28
More HERETICAL NONSENSE from you. Why don't you quit while there is still time to repent?

Jesus -- the Son of God (God the Son) -- is also "the Word of God". And the Word of God is the CREATOR of all things, and all creatures, including angels and archangels. While He was designated as "the Angel of the LORD" in the OT He is called "GOD" in the NT, and that should shut up all further discussion and arguments. Thomas exclaimed "My Lord and My God" and so should you. God the Father said to all the angels "Let all the angels of God worship Him" (Heb 1:6).
Looks like you agree with what I said, not disagree.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,793
13,166
113
Your "A" is plurality "archangels", so not it cannot equal your "B", "the (definite article, singular) Word".

My equation was specific and properly ordered, and included the "if". Yours is just silly and nonsensical.
That is mathematically incorrect.

"the integers" is singular: all integers.
But it is equal to a plurality, all odd plus all even integers. Plurality of subsets doesn't mean their union can't equal a set. it actually is the 'normal case' that closed sets can be described as the union of many open sets.

His equation isn't nonsensical; he's saying even the union of all open-set "archangels" can't cover the closed universal set "The Word" - if for no other reason than archangels are differentiated from God ((Jude)) but The Word is identified with Him. Since at least one element exists in The Word ((God)) but doesn't exist in "archangels" they aren't equal sets.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,793
13,166
113
No, that's your private definition. I provided actual definitions, from multiple dictionaries, encyclopedias, scholars, etc.
No, he had a point, I think.

You yourself conceded that "archangels" is plural, arguing they can't be equal to the singular God, dismissing his point because the point was that very point.

There is only One God, so there can only be one uncreated being: namely, that very God

So by definition by their plurality archangels are created. They are not "collectively God" and cannot be - which is exactly his set-theoretical argument.

So here we are at te Trinity - none of which are created, all of which are one, and nothing else can be equal to.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,793
13,166
113
Yes, it is. Stop misrepresenting mathematics. Sets are represented by "[]", not quotes.
I have an MS++ in math. 1 year from PhD.

Closed set: [The Word)] × [God] has measure infinity.

Open ubset: (archangels) has union set < [God] with finite measure. Doesn't contain its boundaries.

Inquisitor has a point that isn't dismissed by simply saying so.