IS NATIONAL DISASTER A SIGN OF GOD'S SPECIFIC DISPLEASURE UNDER THE NEW COVENANT?

[Nehemiah6]

It is a common claim in some circles that God's SPECIFIC displeasure is being evidenced by natural disasters. Is this true or not? Does God specifically target the USA for disasters like the recent flood in Houston?

There should have been a third option in your poll stating that natural disasters COULD ALSO BE Divine judgments. We know from Scripture that there will come a time when numerous "natural" and supernatural disasters will come upon this earth because of sin and evil and to punish the unbelieving and the ungodly.

So for any Christian to categorically deny this possibility at the present time is to go beyond our scope of knowledge or understanding. None of us knows who God is presently judging. Earthquakes are a good example, and they have been increasing in frequency and intensity over the years. In Revelation there are also earthquakes specifically related to Divine judgments. So we should be cautious about making categorical statements.

No one can say categorically that hurricane Harvey -- which was unprecedented and catastrophic -- was or was not a Divine judgment. Only God and Christ know for sure.

 

[JGIG]

I do not believe it is. As Locutus pointed out, there are no "if X then Y" in the new covenant.

To be honest it annoys me to no end when I have to deal with sensationalist Christians spreading all kinds of false prophecies after every single natural disaster that hits.

The same happened with Japan's tsunami, New Orleans hurricane and I dare not even say what they were saying during the massive plague outbreak in europe, or during world war 2.
Houston we do have a problem, but give it a year and it will be rebuilt good as ever. As for this hurricane irma, it devastated many caribbean islands due to them having poor infrastructure, once it hits Florida it is going to make a mark, but much less than it did in the less developed islands, the damages will also be repaired swiftly.

Why would God punish the bible belt and not hollywood? It does not make much sense. And just a heads up: There has not been a massive earthquake in california for quite some time, and to those of you who know history, you know that San francisco got hit with a huge one about a hundred years ago, so the next one could be coming soon, get ready to hear about God's judgment from every prophecy expert in town when that happens.

Christians spouting off about how natural disasters are God's judgment for sins or because the Church is in sin is one of my pet peeves.

Ugh. NO. God's judgement for sin was poured out at the Cross. A reckoning of who is in Christ/who is not will happen at THE judgement.

We as believers are to be preaching reconciliation to the Lost, NOT judgement - see 2 Cor. 5:16-21:

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

---> 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. <---

---> And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. <---

---> 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. <---​

God set the sun and the moon and the stars in the sky, the moon closer to the earth than the sun. Occasionally the moon will pass between the earth and the sun, creating an eclipse. Has God used this to His purposes in the past through His prophets? Yes. Before the Cross, God used natural phenomena and disasters, punctuating His judgement for sinning - before the Cross.

Likewise, ocean currents and seasonal temps create hurricanes, blizzards, floods, and tornadoes. Righteous or not, if you're in the way of one of those things, there is a good chance you're going to get hurt. 'It rains on the just and the unjust."

The Apostles make clear that after the Cross, those outside of Christ stand condemned already (see Jn. 3:18). We are to be ambassadors of the Good News - preaching reconciliation to the Lost because of Christ and His Work!

I like how Paul Ellis puts it:

"Repentance saves lives, but preaching on repentance doesn’t lead to repentance. A law mind-set emphasizes what people must do (repent!), but grace proclaims what God has already done (everything!). A law mindset uses inferior incentives (e.g., fear and judgment) that lead to temporary changes in behavior, but grace (God is good and he loves you!) changes the hardest heart. If you want people to genuinely repent, preach the goodness of God (Romans 2:4)."​

One more thought: A family we know, when they were living in another state, experienced devastating flood damage to their home. The 'spirit filled' church they were going to at the time refused to offer them aid because they believed the family was judged because there must be some sin in their lives. The more 'conservative' church in their area came and were the hands and feet of the Body of Christ, helped them clean up and restore what was lost. Even IF there was some 'hidden sin' in that family's lives, which local body of believers more reflected the love and character of Christ?

We, as the Body of Christ, are to minister to those affected by natural disasters/events, not taunt them with cries of 'God's Judgement'. And in ministering to their very real needs during those times, opportunities to preach the reconciliation of man to God in Christ present themselves.

If only the majority of the Body could/would grasp this concept \o/!

-JGIG

 

[Locutus]

"19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them."

Right.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

 

[J7]

The Abrahamic Covenant blesses those who bless the Church, and curses those who curse the Church.

This is dead simple.

The Church in America of course has turned this on its head, and decreed that the Church needs to seek a blessing! and it needs to seek it by supplying armaments to Judea!!

It is sad to see people intellectualizing at best and playing the fool at worst on this...

 

[J7]

Not to forget that anyone who puts themselves under the law of the Old Covenant puts themselves under a curse.

There are are two major timelines for Jerusalem and Israel, one ended 1967 the other 2017. It may be that we are now entering a period where no-one can financially aid Israeli religious groups anymore, without being fully cognizant that they are supporting the reconstruction of the Temple and the re-imposition of Mosaic Law. If so, then this will engender judgement, at some point. Big time.

Whether America is a big dog or a small dog is by the by. God has judged nations small and great in the past, he has even judged city states, (Tyre, Rome), so I am sure America has not escaped his notice.

 

[J7]

The issue though is bigger than America. It is really about Mystery Babylon.

Babylon's prophetic life expired in 2017 I think, so we might now see the bringing down of Mystery Babylon. (This is of course a judgement, but it is also a massive relief for the world, and hopefully it will usher in Christ.)

That begs the question, what exactly is Mystery Babylon?

I can see the timelines, but I don't know exactly what happens next! I just know big things are happening.

 

[graceNpeace]

First, the USA is not the centre of the world!

I know that comes as a terrible surprise and many will argue with me! The only place the US appears in scripture is the Book of Mormon, the 10 lost tribes have migrated here, and established a mighty empire! With NO archeological findings to support this, ever, I will move on.

In China, in 1938 the Japanese army was attacking the mainland. The Chinese breached the walls of the Yangtze River, kiliing 800 thousand of their own people and stopping the invading Japanese army. Big flood, no one says it was from God.

Yellow River flood, 1938-47 | DisasterHistory.org

Ah!! Everyone says! Angela's not too smart! Houston was natural, not man made! Since when has building on a flood plain, paving over the swamps and estuaries, been natural? Houston is a direct result of bad planning and remediation.

Read some of the more scholarly articles about how and why the disaster part of Houston could have been ameliorated with proper urban planning! And sorry, this is part of what I studied in my undergrad degree, including courses on natural disasters, urban planning and land use.

So, anyone saying this disaster was from God doesn't have a clue, from a science point of view. From a Biblical point of view, God said he would never send a world wide flood again. Although, there are many Scriptures in the OT that talk about the consequences of not caring for the land. I did a paper on this in seminary, very long, I can give verses if anyone wants.

Basically, God has warned us about caring for the land. He sent Jesus to die for our sin. But he left the earth in a state of Fall, until Jesus returns, and by not caring for the earth, it is no longer able to carry the people in the world, especially careless, foolish, greedy and selfish sinners! I know the OP dealt with this, I just don't see a single verse NT or OT where God used natural disasters after the flood. Unless you want to consider Sodom and Gomorrah as a natural disaster for sin. To me, it sounds more like a nuclear explosion, but that is just conjecture on my part, I would be willing to concede the point if someone has any other evidence.

Even with Israel, who were abysmally wicked, and God sent/allowed drought for 3 years, it was to try and wake up Ahab, not to punish them. And he used people to wipe out the Omri line, and other kings' lines. And when God finally gave judgment, it was with Assyrians, in 722 BC, taking them captive, intermixing them with other captives, and dissolving the 10 tribes.

The same for Judah, except this time it was the Babylonians in 586 BC, but, because Jesus would come from the line of David, the tribe of Judah, he preserved their lineage and brought them back 70 years later, a chastised people.

So no, Houston, New Orleans, Florida, the Caribbean are not a specific punishment for sin. If you live in a hurricane zone, build accordingly. If you live in an earthquake zone, don't build on a fault line.

And if you live on the western part of North American, with no rain for months, and bad forest management practices, don't be surprised that human set fires are burning down California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Alberta, Manitoba and BC. And yes, global warming is real, but how much of that is because of carbon, I do not know!

I notice a lot if you easterners have no idea how bad the west is right now! But then, that is what the media ignores, so why would you?

Besides, what I heard was that the left was saying Houston was God's judgment in the Bible Belt, for opposing gay marriage, transgenders, racism etc! But, I scarcely think people who don't believe in God are qualified to speak for what God is doing, or not! Do you?

This needs a bump!
I would wish that everyone on this forum had the sense displayed by Angela!

BTW I tried to give a rep point to her but the system denied me I must have given her my last rep points some time ago!

 

[OneFaith]

It is a common claim in some circles that God's SPECIFIC displeasure is being evidenced by natural disasters.

Is this true or not? Does God specifically target the USA for disasters like the recent flood in Houston?

One could make such a claim for the ancient nation of Israel, where prosperity and disasters were promised for covenant faithfulness and unfaithfulness, under the Mosaic Covenant.

However, is it biblical to claim these recent disasters are due to God's SPECIFIC displeasure with the USA or some other country?

Some may claim that the USA has a unique relationship with God, and thus covenant faithfulness and unfaithfulness results in blessings or disasters, but could they please show me the covenant, and the evidence that God involved himself in the covenant?

Note that I am not denying that the Fall and the resulting Curse has affected all of mankind. I strongly affirm that. If someone claims that the disasters arise from the effects of the Fall, I have no disagreement. However, I'm speaking of SPECIFIC disapproval.

Predictably, some within certain circles of Christianity are making the same claims, accompanied by alleged dreams they've had that "prove" it, and that's the source of my questioning.

God has, and can use natural disasters today. But I think, at least most of the time, that it's just because people live in that area. If you live next to a volcano, don't be surprised if it erupts. If you live where tornados are frequent, don't be surprised to see one. And if you live next to the ocean, don't think when the water comes on land that it's the wrath of God- it is nature. If you don't want to take the risk, don't live in those areas.

 

[p_rehbein]

We live in a fallen Creation.........there are "natural" occurrences such as "disasters." Read Job.........

 

[7seasrekeyed]

There should have been a third option in your poll stating that natural disasters COULD ALSO BE Divine judgments. We know from Scripture that there will come a time when numerous "natural" and supernatural disasters will come upon this earth because of sin and evil and to punish the unbelieving and the ungodly.

So for any Christian to categorically deny this possibility at the present time is to go beyond our scope of knowledge or understanding. None of us knows who God is presently judging. Earthquakes are a good example, and they have been increasing in frequency and intensity over the years. In Revelation there are also earthquakes specifically related to Divine judgments. So we should be cautious about making categorical statements.

No one can say categorically that hurricane Harvey -- which was unprecedented and catastrophic -- was or was not a Divine judgment. Only God and Christ know for sure.

I agree with option 3

balanced post and I agree

 

[prove-all]

[h=2]Why ‘Natural’ Disasters?[/h]https://www.thetrumpet.com/literature/books_and_booklets/1563



The United States and Britain in Prophecy

https://www.thetrumpet.com/literature/books_and_booklets/44

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I agree totally with your first statement. But, this verse is a bit out of context. This was written to Israel. After King Solomon consecrated the temple. The first temple, of course!


"Thus Solomon finished the house of the Lord and the king's house. All that Solomon had planned to do in the house of the Lord and in his own house he successfully accomplished. 12 Then the Lord appeared to Solomon in the night and said to him: “I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for myself as a house of sacrifice. 13 When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people, 14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. 15 Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayer that is made in this place. 16 For now I have chosen and consecrated this house that my name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will be there for all time. 17 And as for you, if you will walk before me as David your father walked, doing according to all that I have commanded you and keeping my statutes and my rules, 18 then I will establish your royal throne, as I covenanted with David your father, saying, ‘You shall not lack a man to rule Israel.’" 2 Chronicles 7:11-18

Now, if you want to make this about sinners, or NT Christians, feel free to pull it out of context! And, that is not to say we should not repent, humble ourselves and pray. And turn from our wicked ways! We ought to always do that!

But, the world is not ancient Israel, most are not saved, and all the solemn assemblies and gatherings in the world have not healed the land. Because unfortunately, we simply have not obeyed God, as countries, which only Israel truly had the chance to do, and failed miserably at this, from Solomon on down! Israel proved that sinful human beings cannot do this! True, there have been marvellous revivals in the past. Would that they would happen again! But, at this point in history, like Josiah's frantic attempt to reform Judah, after he found the book of the law, it is too little, too late. Even Solomon, who talked with God, and built the temple was apostate by the end of his life! So, what does that say about the hope for the rest of the world, as countries?

Before I was saved, I was an environmentalist. That is what my undergrad degree was about. I realized that it is too late! And fortunately, God is going to return and renew the earth. That is my hope! The return of Jesus Christ. Although certainly, it behooves us all to share the gospel with the lost, especially repentance and turning from our wicked ways. Sadly though, Christians are not on the forefront of changing the environment, and perhaps that is not wrong! Because I do believe, we need to be evangelizing the lost. And that means repentance! And that means turning from our wicked ways! I do not disagree with that at all!

My point was to reinforce that disasters are because we live in a fallen world . . . God will heal our land if we turn from our evil ways . . . period - that verse still stands as it did then. I did not mean that disasters befall individuals that sin because, yes, it does rain on the just and the unjust. Before the fall, the land was perfect . . . Mankind, itself, is destroying the environment but when Christ returns the world will again be perfect for there will be a new heaven and a new earth . . . that is the only time the environment will be changed.

I agree that our responsibility is to preach the gospel to reconcile others back to God.

 

[Enow]

Could be just signs of the times, as everything will get worse and worse before the Bridegroom comes, as a warning to be ready by Him in discerning & departing from iniquity so that believers can be received as vessels unto honor in His House.

I kind of see the signs of the times like a woman in labor; contractions will increase until it is time to deliver.

Mark 13:[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: [SUP]29 [/SUP]So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Matthew 24:[SUP]6 [/SUP]And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. [SUP]8[/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.

1 Thessalonians 5:1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]10 [/SUP]Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Could be also God's way of preparing some of His children to not treasure the things of this world which can pass away so as to treasure the things above in Heaven which cannot pass away so that they are more willing to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

Ever noticed how some people will not leave in the face of a coming natural disaster? And yet in some cases, when the family loses everything, they are noted as thanking God that their family survived it all in spite of that total loss.

But still some people will stay and not leave in the face of a coming natural disaster. They want to stay to fight to keep it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Judgment begins at the house of God......The U.S. contains one of the largest if not the largest so called Christian population. As a nation we went into WW2 ranked 14th in the world and came out ranked 1st and only super power (only one with nukes) and traditionally speaking have been a nation of faith.....that position began to change in the 60's with drug usage, free love, immorality, the murder of babies, the sexual revolution, homosexuality etc. and has progressed....over time the family unit has broken down, Christianity is being eroded, legislated against and if one stands for the truth they will be ostracized, sued, jailed for hate speech etc......

God judges ALL NATIONS and ALL people.....we would be amiss and willfully blind to say or assume that God will not hold us accountable nationally.......ABOVE and beyond the things listed above.......How many wars have been fought, how many countries have we invaded, how any leaders have we deposed, how many civil wars have we initiated, how many innocent people have we killed though bombing all for the sake of American interest? Most have no idea how treacherous the U.S. gov has been over the last 70 years for the sake of oil, money, power etc.....

As a Marine and an American I know this country has done good things as well and has BEEN (past tense) one of the greatest if not the greatest countries to ever grace the face of the earth, but we have grown base, corrupt and as a nation we will be judged......

One of two is a fact from "b" below regardless of those who will deny everything I have said....

a. God gathers ALL nations to JERUSALEM to battle that he may pour out his wrath

b. The U.S. is in the group gathered and or has already been judged and is no longer a nation.

 

[Enow]

Judgment begins at the house of God......The U.S. contains one of the largest if not the largest so called Christian population. As a nation we went into WW2 ranked 14th in the world and came out ranked 1st and only super power (only one with nukes) and traditionally speaking have been a nation of faith.....that position began to change in the 60's with drug usage, free love, immorality, the murder of babies, the sexual revolution, homosexuality etc. and has progressed....over time the family unit has broken down, Christianity is being eroded, legislated against and if one stands for the truth they will be ostracized, sued, jailed for hate speech etc......

God judges ALL NATIONS and ALL people.....we would be amiss and willfully blind to say or assume that God will not hold us accountable nationally.......ABOVE and beyond the things listed above.......How many wars have been fought, how many countries have we invaded, how any leaders have we deposed, how many civil wars have we initiated, how many innocent people have we killed though bombing all for the sake of American interest? Most have no idea how treacherous the U.S. gov has been over the last 70 years for the sake of oil, money, power etc.....

As a Marine and an American I know this country has done good things as well and has BEEN (past tense) one of the greatest if not the greatest countries to ever grace the face of the earth, but we have grown base, corrupt and as a nation we will be judged......

One of two is a fact from "b" below regardless of those who will deny everything I have said....

a. God gathers ALL nations to JERUSALEM to battle that he may pour out his wrath

b. The U.S. is in the group gathered and or has already been judged and is no longer a nation.

I'd go with the latter part of "b".

If one third of the earth is burned up in Revelation and Babylon has fallen as Revelation 18th chapter describes it as a nation mostly saints, but not Christian led, ( more like Freemasonry IMO ) wherein the voice of the Bride & the Bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more, then this happened at the pre trib rapture event when God judged His House.

If any one wondered why God had divided the one land in the days of Peleg in Genesis, of which is now the Atlantic Ocean, then it was to prepare for that day of fire when one third of the earth & water & mankind is burned up from which the necessity for the new world order and the mark of the beast system to buy and sell would be enacted. Do note that the entire western Hemisphere is one third of the earth.

So this is how and why I see the latter part of your option "b" in coming into play, because USA is a part of the one third of the earth that gets burned up right at or immediately after the pre trib rapture event when God judges His House first..

 

[preacher4truth]

It would be foolish on our part to believe that immutable God, who has always judged sin, would cease from doing so, via nature, or otherwise, (of such I've not found any examples to date).

Men have mocked GRIDS in the past, stating the antiquity and naivetè of belief that this wretched disease could have possibly been from God as judgment. So too with earthquakes, tornadoes, flooding, fire, disease, immoral governments, tyrants, famine, death, war, injustice &c.

It could not possibly be from God, God has changed, God isn't the God of the OT any longer, He has learned, matured, grown, and is now all about love. \O/...

Our failure to preach God faithfully in all His attributes while granting allowance to a domesticated version of God and a truncated gospel has lead to much confusion and error in Christendom.

 

[dcontroversal]

I'd go with the latter part of "b".

If one third of the earth is burned up in Revelation and Babylon has fallen as Revelation 18th chapter describes it as a nation mostly saints, but not Christian led, ( more like Freemasonry IMO ) wherein the voice of the Bride & the Bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more, then this happened at the pre trib rapture event when God judged His House.

If any one wondered why God had divided the one land in the days of Peleg in Genesis, of which is now the Atlantic Ocean, then it was to prepare for that day of fire when one third of the earth & water & mankind is burned up from which the necessity for the new world order and the mark of the beast system to buy and sell would be enacted. Do note that the entire western Hemisphere is one third of the earth.

So this is how and why I see the latter part of your option "b" in coming into play, because USA is a part of the one third of the earth that gets burned up right at or immediately after the pre trib rapture event when God judges His House first..

Same here.....latter part of b is my stance.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Funny thing.....I do not remember anyone saying the U.S. is the center of the world......even though our market sets the stage for the rise and fall of all markets, we consume the highest percentage of the world's goods, the west looks to the U.S. to police the world etc. etc. etc.......

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Man is totally responsible for the damage resulting from natural disasters. Look at the population density of the most sensitive areas affected by natural disasters. Man can not blame God for man's foolishness.

that's probably too sensible a response for many

some people believe they have God's personal protection no matter what and the flip side of that is that no matter what, God is going to get you

these same people will designate the OT to no longer applicable but pull it out of the closet when responding to an op like this one

some kind of religious delirium I suspect

 

[Keithbdi]

How does a Righteous God get the Attention of a fallen nation, who has no intention of turning or re-turning to Him?
[h=1]2 Chronicles 7:14[/h][SUP]14 [/SUP]if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.