Is Paul a Genuine Apostle of Jesus Christ?

[Kaycie]

Although I agree with the bulk of your post, this statement is not correct.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Casting lots is God's way of revealing His will. Christ (the Lord) revealed that He chose Matthias.

I know that for example in Judges chapter five Gideon prayed that God would show him a sign, and that Gideon chose what that sign would be, and it did work. I have also done something like this in my life and it did work. But what I'm saying is It did not work for the apostles in this particular situation because they put God in a box. They limited God's choices, and God will not be limited. It is the same as if someone took David's brothers, excluded David, and rolled dice and said God show us which one of David's brothers You want to replace King Saul. It would not work because the one God chose was not one of those being considered. Matthias, though a good Christian man, and my brother whom I can't wait to meet someday, was not one of Christ's twelve apostles.

 

[oldhermit]

I know that for example in Judges chapter five Gideon prayed that God would show him a sign, and that Gideon chose what that sign would be, and it did work. I have also done something like this in my life and it did work. But what I'm saying is It did not work for the apostles in this particular situation because they put God in a box. They limited God's choices, and God will not be limited. It is the same as if someone took David's brothers, excluded David, and rolled dice and said God show us which one of David's brothers You want to replace King Saul. It would not work because the one God chose was not one of those being considered. Matthias, though a good Christian man, and my brother whom I can't wait to meet someday, was not one of Christ's twelve apostles.

Proverbs 16:33, "The lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."

 

[Kaycie]

There were originally twelve but we must consider that Paul was also an Apostle and perhaps there were others.

There must be twelve and only twelve. Half of twenty four is twelve. Twelve from the old testament and twelve from the new testament make up the twenty four elders around God's thone.

 

[john832]

There must be twelve and only twelve. Half of twenty four is twelve. Twelve from the old testament and twelve from the new testament make up the twenty four elders around God's thone.

Why and who says?

You will not find a single scripture that says that Paul replaced Matthias. The word apostle means...


ἀπόστολος
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
Total KJV occurrences: 81

Frankly, we do not know how many apostles there have been.

 

[Mitspa]

There were originally twelve but we must consider that Paul was also an Apostle and perhaps there were others.

Me and my friend John can agree

 

[Kaycie]

Proverbs 16:33, "The lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."

Exactly, like that chapter started out, to humans belong the plans of the heart, BUT from the Lord comes the proper answer.

 

[john832]

Me and my friend John can agree

Every once in a while, my friend.

 

[oldhermit]

Exactly, like that chapter started out, to humans belong the plans of the heart, BUT from the Lord comes the proper answer.

The point is that God revealed his will through the casting of lots in Acts one and has done so numerous times in scripture. The use of lots did not set limitations upon God for his choice in the matter.

 

[john832]

What of men like Peter Waldo? Peter de Bruy? Stephen Mumford? and others throughout history who's writings were not preserved but rather destroyed by a great universal church that persecuted the Church of God?

 

[Mitspa]

Its really very simple ...Paul said all men will be judged by his gospel...if anyman preach another they are cursed...he wrote most of the New Testament and Peter affirms his doctrine in Peters second epistle...it is hard to understand that the law is the strength of sin...that we must become weak to be made strong...we must become a fool to be made wise. Its called the foolishness of the cross. I will say this ...anyone who rejects Paul and his epistles is not saved and is a child of the devil. They have no fellowship with us....any one who accepts the book of Acts written by Luke...must also accept that Paul is exactly who his epistles claim He is....The chosen vessel of the true gospel of Jesus Christ and Apostle of God.

 

[Richie_2uk]

I don't think we should be concerned about what the apostles did or did not, or if they were genuine or not. We should be concentrating on our own lives and how we are genuine to God Today. People are so concerned about other peoples lives in the past than there own lives today. What happened in the past is in the past, leave it there. Let's just say if Paul was not a genuine apostle of God ok? So what? how is that going to effect your life today? what concern has it to you? God used Sinners, tax collecters, Guards and bad kings and bad people and made them into doing good.

All I'm saying is that why be concerned of someone if they are genuine or not from the past. That fact is God used Paul to bring out Good. Why don't people concentrate on your own lives and lets all learn to be genuine to God Today.

 

[Kaycie]

The point is that God revealed his will through the casting of lots in Acts one and has done so numerous times in scripture. The use of lots did not set limitations upon God for his choice in the matter.

I believe that casting lots can work along with prayer, but not when you limit God. You and others believe that Christ has more than twelve apostles, so I am just going to agree to disagree because I don't wish for our discussion to turn into an argument. Someday all things will be made clear. I appreciate everyone who looked into this bible subject a little bit further.

 

[notuptome]

Although I agree with the bulk of your post, this statement is not correct.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Casting lots is God's way of revealing His will. Christ (the Lord) revealed that He chose Matthias.

I see this as evidence that even the apostles were able to run ahead of God and act in their wisdom instead of waiting for God to move. They knew a verse of scripture and acted but they acted ahead of God. How often do we do the same?

What did Matthias accomplish? I'm not looking to place blame nor do I find fault in Matthias but God blessed Paul with a ministry that was and is a manifold blessing to all men especially those of faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[oldhermit]

I believe that casting lots can work along with prayer, but not when you limit God. You and others believe that Christ has more than twelve apostles, so I am just going to agree to disagree because I don't wish for our discussion to turn into an argument. Someday all things will be made clear. I appreciate everyone who looked into this bible subject a little bit further.

Well, then you are going to have to explain why the Lord himself called Paul an apostle when there were already 12 apostles chosen. It sound to me like you are the one who is trying to limit God in his choosing. You are stuck on a number that was never meant to be a confining total.

 

[Kaycie]

I don't think we should be concerned about what the apostles did or did not, or if they were genuine or not. We should be concentrating on our own lives and how we are genuine to God Today. People are so concerned about other peoples lives in the past than there own lives today. What happened in the past is in the past, leave it there. Let's just say if Paul was not a genuine apostle of God ok? So what? how is that going to effect your life today? what concern has it to you? God used Sinners, tax collecters, Guards and bad kings and bad people and made them into doing good.

All I'm saying is that why be concerned of someone if they are genuine or not from the past. That fact is God used Paul to bring out Good. Why don't people concentrate on your own lives and lets all learn to be genuine to God Today.

I agree that we need to concentrate on self examination, and we shouldn't argue, but there is nothing wrong with studying the scriptures and discussing it, as long as you are not argumentive. The difference between debating and arguing is with debating there are constant new thoughts and scriptures being exchanged to consider. But with arguing the thoughts and scriptures do not change each time they are exchanged- it is like ping ping or tennis balls going bak and forth- yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't. There is no point in that. I don't get angry if someone disagrees with me, I am thankful that they considered my thoughts while I considered theirs.

 

[Kaycie]

Well, then you are going to have to explain why the Lord himself called Paul an apostle when there were already 12 apostles chosen. It sound to me like you are the one who is trying to limit God in his choosing. You are stuck on a number that was never meant to be a confining total.

I thought that was clear because even the apostles knew that Judas had to be replaced, therefore there were now 11 when there needed to be 12. But it's ok if you disagree that there needed to be exactly 12. We shared our thoughts, so unless there are more thoughts to consider, to continue would just be arguing if we're going to go back and forth saying the same things that were already said.

 

[oldhermit]

I thought that was clear because even the apostles knew that Judas had to be replaced, therefore there were now 11 when there needed to be 12. But it's ok if you disagree that there needed to be exactly 12. We shared our thoughts, so unless there are more thoughts to consider, to continue would just be arguing if we're going to go back and forth saying the same things that were already said.

Just one more thought you need to consider. Since Jesus himself called Paul an apostle and the Holy Spirit himself selected Mathias as an apostle would this not suggest that perhaps we need to rethink how we represent the use of the number 12 in scripture in connection with the apostolic band?

 

[john832]

I see this as evidence that even the apostles were able to run ahead of God and act in their wisdom instead of waiting for God to move. They knew a verse of scripture and acted but they acted ahead of God. How often do we do the same?

What did Matthias accomplish? I'm not looking to place blame nor do I find fault in Matthias but God blessed Paul with a ministry that was and is a manifold blessing to all men especially those of faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What are you talking about?

 

[john832]

I see this as evidence that even the apostles were able to run ahead of God and act in their wisdom instead of waiting for God to move. They knew a verse of scripture and acted but they acted ahead of God. How often do we do the same?

What did Matthias accomplish? I'm not looking to place blame nor do I find fault in Matthias but God blessed Paul with a ministry that was and is a manifold blessing to all men especially those of faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Are you implying that Thaddeus was not an Apostle? How about Bartholomew? What did they accomplish? Because they did not write books in the N.T. are you saying their Apostleship was not genuine?

You really need to rethink this.

 

[oldhermit]

I see this as evidence that even the apostles were able to run ahead of God and act in their wisdom instead of waiting for God to move. They knew a verse of scripture and acted but they acted ahead of God. How often do we do the same?

What did Matthias accomplish? I'm not looking to place blame nor do I find fault in Matthias but God blessed Paul with a ministry that was and is a manifold blessing to all men especially those of faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Acts 1:15-26
by oldhermit

“At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said, “Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. “For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry.”

1. How did Peter know that it was necessary that Judas be replaced and that another should take his office? How did he know that Psalms 69:25 and 109:8 applied specifically to Judas? In Luke 24:45 we are told that Jesus “opened their minds to understand the scriptures.” Jesus pushed revealed intelligence into their minds so they could link scripture to the things that had opccured. The necessity of choosing a replacement for Judas was a simple matter of prophesy. It was ordained that Judas would be replaced and that his share in the apostolic ministry be assigned to another.
2. See the account of Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8:21. Peter tells him he has not part not portion in this matter. In other words, he had no right to “share” in the apostolic ministry.
3. “For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his homestead be made desolate, and let no one dwell in it (his property, perhaps that which he owned by inheritance was to be rendered cursed)’; and, ‘Let another man take his office (apostleship, his assigned function as part of the apostolic band).’

C. A suitable replacement “Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection. So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.”

1. There was more concerned than just the outward qualifications. What the heart held could not be determined through human observation. This required divine discernment. “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen...”
2. Judas' “turning aside” was a deliberate choice, not an action that was imposed upon him. His decision to abandon his ministry was a decision of the will.
3. “His own place” – This is referred to by Jesus regarding Judas as son of perdition ἀπωλείας – perdition, destruction, misery, John 17:12.
4. The replacement was one of necessity. It had to be done. Scripture WILL be fulfilled.
5. Candidates for consideration

a. “Men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us.”
b. The appointment was to be a “witness with us of His resurrection.”
c. The selection was one of divine choice, “show which one of these two You have chosen.” This choice was determined by more than just the outward qualification given by Peter. This appointment was also contingent upon the quality of the heart. What the heart held could not be determined by human observation. This had to be divinely discerned.

This really does not sound to me like a case of the apostles running ahead of the Lord.