Is Soli Deo Gloria a biblical principle? Pro football player Nick Foles says yes.

[DB7]

Scripture teaches that God changes the nature of the person, giving them a heart of flesh to replace their heart of stone, which cannot produce faith and repentance, therefore they have no reason to glory in themselves, but only God.

They make a "free will" choice of faith, repentance and confession but it is due to the new nature they now have, that God gave to them.

Boasting is excluded, unlike the free-willer view that the person was smart enough to respond to God using their autonomous free will (which is not a biblical position as Romans 6, John 8 and other places state that man is enslaved to sin, dead and in need of spiritual resurrection, and dwells in darkness and delusion).

God glorifies himself in his acts of salvation, by the way...he is not dependent on humans or angels to glorify him. That would imply that God is somehow deficit in himself, and needs other beings to provide some need. In reality, God is Triune, community within his very being, therefore he needs no other thing or no other being. He is self-sufficient.

Now, he does choose to share himself with other unworthy creatures..but he is self-sufficient.

I'm sorry UWC, but Romans 6 is anything but an affirmation that a transformation has automatically taken place, but rather an exhortation, and a plea to do good and behave oneself. Paul is speaking hypothetically, that since you have been saved, how can you regress to your old ways, 'one who is of Christ does not do these things'. He's saying, don't forget what the concept stands for, therefore do your best to abide. Almost every sentence is an exhortation to control yourself.
And sorry, John 8 was a bit long to get just one or two points from it, but Jesus does say that 'he always does what pleases the Father'.
But, yes, absolutely, Solely to the Glory for God is definitely a Biblical principle, both by explicit and implicit statements, and by the overarching principle throughout the entire Book. Not to mention that wisdom alone forces us to understand that fundamentally, it cannot be ascribed anywhere else but God, the author of life and all good things.
But again, since we both agree that God does not need to glorify himself, then who's doing the glorifying if we are incapable of it, and only He can capacitate us to do so?
Thanks!

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I'm sorry UWC, but Romans 6 is anything but an affirmation that a transformation has automatically taken place, but rather an exhortation, and a plea to do good and behave oneself. Paul is speaking hypothetically, that since you have been saved, how can you regress to your old ways, 'one who is of Christ does not do these things'. He's saying, don't forget what the concept stands for, therefore do your best to abide. Almost every sentence is an exhortation to control yourself.
And sorry, John 8 was a bit long to get just one or two points from it, but Jesus does say that 'he always does what pleases the Father'.
But, yes, absolutely, Solely to the Glory for God is definitely a Biblical principle, both by explicit and implicit statements, and by the overarching principle throughout the entire Book. Not to mention that wisdom alone forces us to understand that fundamentally, it cannot be ascribed anywhere else but God, the author of life and all good things.
But again, since we both agree that God does not need to glorify himself, then who's doing the glorifying if we are incapable of it, and only He can capacitate us to do so?
Thanks!

Romans 6, as well as I Corinthians 6 and other places describes what has actually happened to the believer. He has been united with Christ, the objective reality, and he needs to start behaving like it and producing fruit. And, this fruit is produced because he has been joined to Christ, not of his own nature.

It teaches that the objective reality is that the person is united with Christ, and has experienced a new birth.

Therefore, he needs to behave in realization of this objective fact.

One is the change of being (ontology) and the other is the change of behavior (economy).

Logically and objectively, the person has been changed ontologically. His change in behavior is inevitable due to this change.

As I have said before, those who don't understand Reformed theology. and embrace free-willer theology, cannot make sense of Scripture as a whole. Union with Christ is the central teaching of Paul.

The person is justified through union with Christ, and he is also transformed through it. The two are not separate.

Additionally, as I have described on so many occasions, unsaved man is in bondage to Satan, his sin, and this world. I really cannot understand how free-willers can read Scripture without seeing these basis truths. Well, I can see it, and it is because they are bound by their traditions to their teachings. I started out as a free-willer myself I guess.

The fundamental problem is a denial of the radical corruption of mankind. At the same time, the person must assert, if he doesn't believe in radical corruption, that what God has accomplished in salvation is really not all that great. The man himself has asserted his alleged free-will and modified his behavior, rather than being the recipient of a new birth which has radically transformed him.

See, radical corruption of the truly saved person is accompanied by radical renewal and radical transformation.

Those who deny radical corruption simply cannot appreciate salvation for what it is. Period. End of sentence.

And I retch over the thoughts of the free-willer theology of ignorant persons.

 

[DB7]

Therefore, he needs to behave in realization of this objective fact.

One is the change of being (ontology) and the other is the change of behavior (economy).

Logically and objectively, the person has been changed ontologically. His change in behavior is inevitable due to this change.

My goodness UWC, you will have one heck of a time proving the points that I quoted by you above, on an empirical level!?!?
I wish that you could, the world would be a better place.
Objective reality, not even close, show me one edified person, show me a person with wisdom, one who exegetes God's Word in truth and accuracy, you can't do it. Don't even try to tell me that an ontological transformation has taken place to any christian that ever lived.

The person is justified through union with Christ, and he is also transformed through it. The two are not separate.

You said it yourself directly above, according to your logic the transformation is inevitable, ...show me one person that exemplifies the renewed mind, is that you, ...it surely aint me, I'm trying but it's taking a long, long time (not even worth mentioning for this argument)!!!
You being such an ardent Calvinist, I ask you, was Calvin himself transformed to exemplify all the characteristics depicted in Rom. 6 (that's rhetorical, that answer is a categorical NO).
Thanks!

 

[Deade]

The fundamental problem is a denial of the radical corruption of mankind. At the same time, the person must assert, if he doesn't believe in radical corruption, that what God has accomplished in salvation is really not all that great. The man himself has asserted his alleged free-will and modified his behavior, rather than being the recipient of a new birth which has radically transformed him.

I just can't believe in your radical corruption theory. You are saying there is no good in people at all? We often see good behavior from unsaved and falsely saved Christians. To say they have no good in them, at all, is just wrong. We even have scripture telling us this:

Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

Even though good can be present, evil is usually present also. Most people get into doing evil through self justification. Certainly, we all are capable of evil. But I can't go along with Calvin's view on radical corruption for everyone. The scripture Calvinists use most often, is as follows:

Psalms 14:2,3 "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

That is restated in Romans 3. I think that all boils down to the definition of faith. What God tells us is, we just will not believe without seeing something. That is, until He gives us real faith. It is just in our human nature to want to follow only those things we can see. My thoughts, anyway.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

And I retch over the thoughts of the free-willer theology of ignorant persons.

You can blame God for that free-willer theology being supported by the majority of Christians. God decreed it to be so after all.

Sad how God decided to decree that most Christians cannot appreciate salvation properly.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You can blame God for that free-willer theology being supported by the majority of Christians. God decreed it to be so after all.

Sad how God decided to decree that most Christians cannot appreciate salvation properly.

Assumption: a pathetic god who cannot accomplish his purposes is involved in a proper understanding of Christianity.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I just can't believe in your radical corruption theory. You are saying there is no good in people at all? We often see good behavior from unsaved and falsely saved Christians. To say they have no good in them, at all, is just wrong. We even have scripture telling us this:

Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

Even though good can be present, evil is usually present also. Most people get into doing evil through self justification. Certainly, we all are capable of evil. But I can't go along with Calvin's view on radical corruption for everyone. The scripture Calvinists use most often, is as follows:

Psalms 14:2,3 "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

That is restated in Romans 3. I think that all boils down to the definition of faith. What God tells us is, we just will not believe without seeing something. That is, until He gives us real faith. It is just in our human nature to want to follow only those things we can see. My thoughts, anyway. View attachment 207125

You are contradicting yourself:

Romans 3:9-20
9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
(ESV Strong's)

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

All unredeemed mankind is in Adam and is spiritually dead, and separated from the life of God.

Ephesians 2:1-3 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Ephesians 4:17-18 17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

Colossians 2:13 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

The unsaved are in bondage to sin, Satan and the kingdom of darkness, and being deceived by him.

John 8:34 34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.

Acts 26:16-18 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Romans 6:20-23 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 5:6-11 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not become partners with them; 8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

The unsaved reflect the character of Satan and reject God’s authority in their lives.

John 8:43-44 3 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

1 John 3:8-10 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

The unsaved are sinners by nature and love their sin.

John 3:19 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

Ephesians 2:1-3 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The unsaved have stony hearts that are unable and unwilling to respond to God’s commands of faith, repentance, and obedience, because they are still in the flesh. They need to be given spiritual life through regeneration (also called being “born again”, “born from above” or “spiritual circumcision”), and have the laws of God written on their hearts through it

Deuteronomy 29:4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Ezekiel 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.



John 3:1-8 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Hebrews 8:10-12 0 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

Romans 8:5-9 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him

Spiritual information does not penetrate the thoughts of the unsaved, and they do not seek God. In fact, they are enemies of God and hate him and his law. God must regenerate them, giving them the mind of Christ, before they can understand the truths of the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:28-32 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Romans 8:5-9 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him

Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Romans 3:10-18 0 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” 13 “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” 14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 in their paths are ruin and misery, 17 and the way of peace they have not known.” 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Colossians 1:21-23 21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16 0 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God

The unsaved are under the wrath and condemnation of God

Ephesians 2:1-3 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Ephesians 5:5-6 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

The unsaved need to be regenerated, being made alive again, by the power of the Holy Spirit

Ephesians 2:4-6 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

2 Corinthians 3:3 3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You are contradicting yourself:

Romans 3:9-20
9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
(ESV Strong's)

I don't say it, the Bible says it.

I don't deny that mankind can exhibit some level of "civic virtue" due to the fact that they are in the image of God.

However, those that don't have a relationship with God are dead spiritually, abiding in darkness, and doing the will of Satan.

See the above verses, especially in 1 John 3.

And, the fact that folks don't understand this makes me wonder if they have experienced salvation. Part of salvation involves realizing how every aspect of man's being has been corrupted due to the Fall.

By the way, "total depravity" does NOT mean that man is as bad as he could be. It means that man's nature has been radically corrupted by the fall. There is no part of man's being that hasn't been affected, including his will.

The free-willers claim otherwise. They believe there is an "island of righteousness" (the will) that can decide, without any external influence such as God himself, to follow God.

There are varying degrees of free-willers, though. Ironically while Arminianism is used as a term to describe free-willers, Jacobus Arminius was actually closer to Reformed theology than the rest of free-willers. He was still a free-willer, but he had some level of understanding concerning the radical corruption caused by the Fall.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

My goodness UWC, you will have one heck of a time proving the points that I quoted by you above, on an empirical level!?!?
I wish that you could, the world would be a better place.
Objective reality, not even close, show me one edified person, show me a person with wisdom, one who exegetes God's Word in truth and accuracy, you can't do it. Don't even try to tell me that an ontological transformation has taken place to any christian that ever lived.


You said it yourself directly above, according to your logic the transformation is inevitable, ...show me one person that exemplifies the renewed mind, is that you, ...it surely aint me, I'm trying but it's taking a long, long time (not even worth mentioning for this argument)!!!
You being such an ardent Calvinist, I ask you, was Calvin himself transformed to exemplify all the characteristics depicted in Rom. 6 (that's rhetorical, that answer is a categorical NO).
Thanks!

You are describing entire sanctification, which is a Wesleyan teaching. Entire sanctification is achieved at glorification.

However, there has been a genuine transformation at the new birth, as well as a progressive transformation throughout the person's life.

And if you aren't experiencing it, you have reason to doubt your salvation. Those who are united with Christ produce spiritual fruit, according to John 15. Those who belong to the devil continue in unrighteousness, according to 1 John 3.

That is why Reformed theology teaches preservation and perseverance of the saints.

And, yes, Calvin has been transformed. He no longer possesses a fallen nature. He is in the presence of Christ. At Jesus' return, his body will be resurrected and glorified, and reunited with his spirit.

By the way, I don't like being called a Calvinist, and that's why I don't call free-willers Arminians. You can go ahead and call me that if you want, though, but I won't think favorably of it, and I don't like it that my Reformed brothers refer to themselves as Calvinists.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

To answer those who claim believers don't need to be obedient, and are not producing the fruit of obedience:


1 John 3:4-10
4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
(ESV Strong's)

And, no, I don't believe in sinless perfectionism, but those who are saved will be growing in holiness.

This is PLAIN throughout Scripture.

This is because they have been joined to Jesus, and branches of the true Vine produce fruit (John 15).

Now, I would wonder what sect of the free-willers that folks here belong to..the Free Grace Movement? Grace Evangelical Society guys? Various other hyper-grace heretical groups?

These guys tend to make claims that obedience is desirable, but not necessary, for the believer.

 

[Flint321]

I just can't believe in your radical corruption theory. You are saying there is no good in people at all? We often see good behavior from unsaved and falsely saved Christians. To say they have no good in them, at all, is just wrong. We even have scripture telling us this:

Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

Even though good can be present, evil is usually present also. Most people get into doing evil through self justification. Certainly, we all are capable of evil. But I can't go along with Calvin's view on radical corruption for everyone. The scripture Calvinists use most often, is as follows:

Psalms 14:2,3 "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

That is restated in Romans 3. I think that all boils down to the definition of faith. What God tells us is, we just will not believe without seeing something. That is, until He gives us real faith. It is just in our human nature to want to follow only those things we can see. My thoughts, anyway. View attachment 207125

Sure, there is a human goodness in a general way being expressed in humanity, but all these things are not done in spirit and in truth,
the reality is all of man's "goodness" is but a filthy rag deserving God's wrath, everything man does in Adam is wretched, there is no merit, why? because man is depraved, he has no merit with God, this an objective truth from the bible, all of his goodness, is evil to God, as he is stained entirely in sin, man is only an evil creature by nature.

Thats why in Romans 3:9 - 11 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Only after salvation can man produce a spiritual righteousness through grace that is pleasing to God, the fruits of the Holy Spirit for example and this flows from God not Man, God also tells us in his word to please Him, to obey Him by faith etc etc.. but this is all of grace, to live lives that are worthy and pleasing to God in the gospel , hope that helps.

 

[Flint321]

2 Corinthians 5:6-10
6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

 

[DB7]

Sorry, 'Reformed' is fine, ...i'm never sure how flexible some proponents are on the terminology.

And, yes, Calvin has been transformed. He no longer possesses a fallen nature. He is in the presence of Christ. At Jesus' return, his body will be resurrected and glorified, and reunited with his spirit.

...but, I was referring to Calvin's time on earth.

However, there has been a genuine transformation at the new birth, as well as a progressive transformation throughout the person's life.

If what you just said directly above is true, do you feel that Calvin's contemporaries would've felt that way about him, ...and UWC, I mean the man Calvin, not Geneva or his works?
That is, that he was an edified man, do you think that he would've thought that way of himself?
Was it not Martin Luther who allegedly said 'yes, i may have brought a lot to the Lord, but who will save me' (paraphrase).
Either way UWC, apparently you feel that you exude true Christians ideals, I'm not convinced that everyone who knows me would say that about me. So according to you, my salvation may be in question. To me, my standing is always in question, one must fight to the end to gain the prize.
Whereas the irony is, your perceived boasting, or over assurance, may be exactly what is incriminating you and your salvation?
Just saying.....

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Sorry, 'Reformed' is fine, ...i'm never sure how flexible some proponents are on the terminology.


...but, I was referring to Calvin's time on earth.

If what you just said directly above is true, do you feel that Calvin's contemporaries would've felt that way about him, ...and UWC, I mean the man Calvin, not Geneva or his works?
That is, that he was an edified man, do you think that he would've thought that way of himself?
Was it not Martin Luther who allegedly said 'yes, i may have brought a lot to the Lord, but who will save me' (paraphrase).
Either way UWC, apparently you feel that you exude true Christians ideals, I'm not convinced that everyone who knows me would say that about me. So according to you, my salvation may be in question. To me, my standing is always in question, one must fight to the end to gain the prize.
Whereas the irony is, your perceived boasting, or over assurance, may be exactly what is incriminating you and your salvation?
Just saying.....

Firstly, I can't judge John Calvin. John Calvin's role in the death of Servetus, if that's what you're hinting at, is largely a function of Dave Hunt and other ignorant "apologists" who have simply passed on the arguments of other ignorant, anti-Reformed people.

Almost everyone at that time thought Servetus should be put to death for his heretical beliefs. The view was that they were establishing the kingdom of God on earth, and that heretics needed to be dealt with. Besides, Servetus engineered his own death by showing up in a city where he was banned. How retarded could he be, if he didn't want to die?

Secondly, it isn't the place of other humans or myself to judge the salvation of a believer. They are to judge themselves according to 2 Corinthians 13:5, to see if they are in the faith. And, yes, believers are supposed to take a sober look at themselves to see if they are in the faith or not. A sober look doesn't mean that they are to ignore the positive growth, either.

And, there is a man's perspective and God's perspective. The doctrines of Reformed theology are more focused on God's perspective than man's perspective. The Reformed person lives with the knowledge of God's perspective while still remaining sober and diligent.

This is a highly balanced statement:


But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” 2 Tim 2:19

Both are true..the LORD knows who are his (election) and those who belong to him depart from iniquity (perseverance).

 

[Grandpa]

You can blame God for that free-willer theology being supported by the majority of Christians. God decreed it to be so after all.

Sad how God decided to decree that most Christians cannot appreciate salvation properly.

I'm not sure that God can be blamed for people worshipping their own will over worshipping God Himself.

I would think that people just didn't work out their Salvation with fear and trembling, otherwise they would know, without a doubt, where it comes from. And they would know that their free will theology is a sham.

It just re-enforces what is already written in the bible.

Romans 3:10-11
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[EleventhHour]

I'm not sure that God can be blamed for people worshipping their own will over worshipping God Himself.

I would think that people just didn't work out their Salvation with fear and trembling, otherwise they would know, without a doubt, where it comes from. And they would know that their free will theology is a sham.

It just re-enforces what is already written in the bible.

Romans 3:10-11
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Free will when it comes to salvation is a problem for sure.
No one wills there salvation and therefore no amount of "willing" can make one loose their salvation...it works on both sides.

 

[DB7]

I just can't believe in your radical corruption theory. You are saying there is no good in people at all? We often see good behavior from unsaved and falsely saved Christians. To say they have no good in them, at all, is just wrong. We even have scripture telling us this:

Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

Even though good can be present, evil is usually present also. Most people get into doing evil through self justification. Certainly, we all are capable of evil. But I can't go along with Calvin's view on radical corruption for everyone. The scripture Calvinists use most often, is as follows:

Psalms 14:2,3 "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

That is restated in Romans 3. I think that all boils down to the definition of faith. What God tells us is, we just will not believe without seeing something. That is, until He gives us real faith. It is just in our human nature to want to follow only those things we can see. My thoughts, anyway. View attachment 207125

Agreed Deade, as far as how axiomatic it is that there is both good & bad in man is concerned. For, as you said, this is apparent even amongst the atheist or unsaved (those without regeneration), and is one of the over-arching principles of the entire Bible, i.e. Be holy as I am holy, ...even unto the pain of death (capital crimes in Levitical Law).
And even more fundamentally, immediately at the fall itself, God proclaimed that 'man has become like us, knowing both good & evil' (Gen. 3:22). And subsequently after the fall, God pronounces several times how that man is still created in his image (Gen 5:1-3, Gen. 9:6, 1 Cor. 11:7), not to mention how you quoted Rom. 2:14 also.

The Reformed view is clearly imbalanced, and exegetically incorrect, especially notable is Total Depravity since we see how the majority of men were corrupt in God's eyes, but despite this, he was still able to find someone, somewhere who wasn't (Gen. 6:5-9, Gen. 19:29). Not to mention how Moses was called 'a friend of God', how David was referred to as 'a man after my own heart', how Job was labelled as 'blameless and upright, who shunned evil'.

I must admit, there is a profound harmonization challenge between the undeniable fact of God's sovereignty, and the Biblically didactictly, explicitly and implicitly pronounced principle of man's responsibility and free will. Exactly how they integrate, and where one starts and the other ends, is a difficult exegetical challenge, at least for me, for sure (but not necessarily for others).
But, without a doubt, the Reformed camp have not resolved it, for it requires one to be in complete denial of the facts that you stated above, and the verses that I referenced, and again, the preponderant exhortation throughout the entire scriptures to 'be good or else'.

...but, back to the point, I still think that throughout the entire scriptures, all the precepts, mandates, injunctions, rituals and ordinances, all creation and life itself, is to the glory of God. For, let's face it, God is glorious, and his glory is above all other glories, and it must be recognized as such, for anything less is erroneous, deficient, deceitful, wicked and blasphemous!