Is the Devil bound right now...?

[DP]

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Irenaeus. Adversus haereses, Book V, Chapter 30:4)

And 6,000 years must needs be accomplished, in order that the Sabbath may come, the rest, the holy day "on which God rested from all His works." For the Sabbath is the type and emblem of the future kingdom of the saints, when they "shall reign with Christ," when He comes from heaven, as John says in his Apocalypse: for "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years."Since, then, in six days God made all things, it follows that 6, 000 years must be fulfilled. (Hippolytus. On the HexaËmeron, Or Six Days' Work. From Fragments from Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture. CHURCH FATHERS: Exegetical Fragments (Hippolytus) verified 9/17/07).

LXXX This has pleased Christ, that the dead should rise again, yea, with their bodies; and those, too, whom in this world the fire has burned, when six thousand years are completed, and the world has come to an end. The heaven in the meantime is changed with an altered course, for then the wicked are burnt up with divine fire. The creature with groaning burns with the anger of the highest God. Those who are more worthy, and who are begotten of an illustrious stem, and the men of nobility under the conquered Antichrist, according to God's command living again in the world for a thousand years, indeed, that they may serve the saints, and the High One, under a servile yoke, that they may bear victuals on their neck. Moreover, that they may be judged again when the reign is finished. They who make God of no account when the thousandth year is finished shall perish by fire, when they themselves shall speak to the mountains.
(Commodianus. On Christian Discipline. Translated by Robert Ernest Wallis. From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4. Edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. CHURCH FATHERS: On Christian Discipline (Commodianus)).

…that true and just Sabbath should be observed in the seventh millenary of years. Wherefore to those seven days the Lord attributed to each a thousand years; for thus went the warning: "In Your eyes, O Lord, a thousand years are as one day." Therefore in the eyes of the Lord each thousand of years is ordained, for I find that the Lord's eyes are seven. Wherefore, as I have narrated, that true Sabbath will be in the seventh millenary of years, when Christ with His elect shall reign. (Victorinus. Commentary on the Creation. Translated by Robert Ernest Wallis. From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 7. Edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1886.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight).

 

[Ahwatukee]

OK, I see you have 'nothing'... Biblical to offer.

You are free to believe what you want. It does not bother me in the least if you think our Lord Jesus is coming to rapture you prior to the tribulation, simply because I already know per His Word that He will not, for that idea is not written in His Word. Instead, that pre-trib rapture idea is a doctrine from men that began in the 1830's through John Nelson Darby and et al. That is when the pre-trib rapture doctrine first sprang among certain Churches in Britain.

Yet as a Christian brother, I still admonish you to do further Bible study for yourself on the matter throughout all of God's Word, while being fair-minded with yourself.

Hi DP,

I have never read anything by Darby or anyone else. My conclusion for the pre-trib, pre-first seal, resurrection and catching away (RCA) comes from my own personal studies. The problem with mid and post trib position remains the same, which is the wrath of God which must take place prior to Christ's return to end the age. Paul describes the RCA in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and he then follows it with the wrath of God, which he says we are not appointed to suffer. The Thessalonians wrote to Paul because there were some who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place and the reason for their concern to Paul was that they were still here on earth, that is, they had not been caught up with the resurrected group according to the teaching. In other words, if the resurrection has already taken place, then why are we still here Paul? Why haven't we been caught up? And of course Paul comforts and reassures them by letting them know that the resurrection had not yet taken place and when it would. Consider the following:

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

In the scripture above, right after Paul gives his teaching on the RCA, he then follows that with the coming wrath and he says:

"While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters"

In the verse above it says, "they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters," I don't even have to read the rest of the verse and that because the words "But you, brothers and sisters" would infer the opposite of not escaping. In other words, they will not escape, but you brothers and sisters will. How will they escape? By the teaching that Paul had just given previously regarding the resurrection and catching away. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall prevail against it." That being said, God is not going to take those who have received his Son as Lord and savior and who are continuing to be faithful, bringing forth the fruit of the Spirit and then send them through the same wrath of God that those who have rejected his Son and are continuing to live sinful nature will be going through. It's not going to happen! This is not God's nature.

This wrath that is coming will be unprecedented, a time of great distress such as the world has not seen, from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again and therefore, God will remove his church prior to this time of wrath known as the day of the Lord and as that hour of trial. After Paul told them about the RCA he said, "therefore, comfort each other with these words." That being said, if the church was to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, there would be no comfort for anyone.

One has to understand the magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. With just the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet, the fatalities for just those two will be 4.4 billion people based on a population of 7 billion and that's not counting trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor the seven bowl judgments. Considering the rest of those judgments, my guestamation would put the fatalities at over 90% of the earth's population by the time Jesus returns to end the age. And this fits with what Jesus said regarding that time, "Except those days were shortened, no one would be left alive."

 

[ukok102nak]

:smoke: Our brothers here in this thread are now
getting along with each other :happy:

:scarf: We hope that in each threads shall follow :sisid:

Godbless us all

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by popeye

Amazing how postribs are oblivious to the fact that God does NOT have a postjudgement pattern of deliverance.

You really MUST ABANDON CLEAR COMPREHENSION.

You need to show how God,as you say,delivers his family POSTJUDGEMENT and 5 seconds later RETURNS TO THE EXACT SAME SPOT. (depicting your made up postrib rapture u turn).

Mat 25 depicts a groom fetching his bride which HAS LEFT HER ORIGINAL DWELLING AND DOING A U TURN BACK TO HIS FATHERS HOUSE..

Exactly backwards of what you guys BASELESSLY DEPICTED.

You then try to hammer fit the plagues of Egypt.
Uh,again,you have zero.

Pssst,they went into the wilderness
You sayin God is gonna take you into WILDERNESS postrib??

Oh,wait ,you may be getting the measure of faith you are meeting out to others.

OK, I see you have 'nothing'... Biblical to offer.

You are free to believe what you want. It does not bother me in the least if you think our Lord Jesus is coming to rapture you prior to the tribulation, simply because I already know per His Word that He will not, for that idea is not written in His Word. Instead, that pre-trib rapture idea is a doctrine from men that began in the 1830's through John Nelson Darby and et al. That is when the pre-trib rapture doctrine first sprang among certain Churches in Britain.

Yet as a Christian brother, I still admonish you to do further Bible study for yourself on the matter throughout all of God's Word, while being fair-minded with yourself.

Same ole,same ole. I hand you the word (mat 24 and 25 Noah,Lot and the 10 virgins),you respond with ;" you have no verses",then you go outside the word with rabbit trails (darby etc)

It's like every single time,you guys get shellacked in a bible study, resort to extra biblical mess and rabbit trails,then top off your false mess with non issues.

When will you guys get it? There is no such thing as "first doctrine is correct"

If that were true the church would BE FORCED to reject Paul's correction of Peter.
You are basically saying peter was right in that he said it first,so we can invoke all early church false doctrine as truth.

 

[popeye]

Hi DP,

I have never read anything by Darby or anyone else. My conclusion for the pre-trib, pre-first seal, resurrection and catching away (RCA) comes from my own personal studies. The problem with mid and post trib position remains the same, which is the wrath of God which must take place prior to Christ's return to end the age. Paul describes the RCA in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and he then follows it with the wrath of God, which he says we are not appointed to suffer. The Thessalonians wrote to Paul because there were some who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place and the reason for their concern to Paul was that they were still here on earth, that is, they had not been caught up with the resurrected group according to the teaching. In other words, if the resurrection has already taken place, then why are we still here Paul? Why haven't we been caught up? And of course Paul comforts and reassures them by letting them know that the resurrection had not yet taken place and when it would. Consider the following:

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

In the scripture above, right after Paul gives his teaching on the RCA, he then follows that with the coming wrath and he says:

"While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters"

In the verse above it says, "they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters," I don't even have to read the rest of the verse and that because the words "But you, brothers and sisters" would infer the opposite of not escaping. In other words, they will not escape, but you brothers and sisters will. How will they escape? By the teaching that Paul had just given previously regarding the resurrection and catching away. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall prevail against it." That being said, God is not going to take those who have received his Son as Lord and savior and who are continuing to be faithful, bringing forth the fruit of the Spirit and then send them through the same wrath of God that those who have rejected his Son and are continuing to live sinful nature will be going through. It's not going to happen! This is not God's nature.

This wrath that is coming will be unprecedented, a time of great distress such as the world has not seen, from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again and therefore, God will remove his church prior to this time of wrath known as the day of the Lord and as that hour of trial. After Paul told them about the RCA he said, "therefore, comfort each other with these words." That being said, if the church was to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, there would be no comfort for anyone.

One has to understand the magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. With just the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet, the fatalities for just those two will be 4.4 billion people based on a population of 7 billion and that's not counting trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor the seven bowl judgments. Considering the rest of those judgments, my guestamation would put the fatalities at over 90% of the earth's population by the time Jesus returns to end the age. And this fits with what Jesus said regarding that time, "Except those days were shortened, no one would be left alive."

Yes.

They do not have a single thing left to defend.....ZERO!.

They can not defend the 10 virgins,the FACT that the AC kills every single humanoid on the planet that refuses the mark,the 2 escape verses,Noah,Lot, the church already in heaven DURING THE GT,nor the promise of jesus at the last supper that we would be with him in heaven.

To top it off,their u turn in mid air BACK TO THE SPOT OF JUDGEMENT is not a biblical pattern.

 

[popeye]

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Irenaeus. Adversus haereses, Book V, Chapter 30:4)

And 6,000 years must needs be accomplished, in order that the Sabbath may come, the rest, the holy day "on which God rested from all His works." For the Sabbath is the type and emblem of the future kingdom of the saints, when they "shall reign with Christ," when He comes from heaven, as John says in his Apocalypse: for "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years."Since, then, in six days God made all things, it follows that 6, 000 years must be fulfilled. (Hippolytus. On the HexaËmeron, Or Six Days' Work. From Fragments from Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture. CHURCH FATHERS: Exegetical Fragments (Hippolytus) verified 9/17/07).

LXXX This has pleased Christ, that the dead should rise again, yea, with their bodies; and those, too, whom in this world the fire has burned, when six thousand years are completed, and the world has come to an end. The heaven in the meantime is changed with an altered course, for then the wicked are burnt up with divine fire. The creature with groaning burns with the anger of the highest God. Those who are more worthy, and who are begotten of an illustrious stem, and the men of nobility under the conquered Antichrist, according to God's command living again in the world for a thousand years, indeed, that they may serve the saints, and the High One, under a servile yoke, that they may bear victuals on their neck. Moreover, that they may be judged again when the reign is finished. They who make God of no account when the thousandth year is finished shall perish by fire, when they themselves shall speak to the mountains.
(Commodianus. On Christian Discipline. Translated by Robert Ernest Wallis. From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4. Edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. CHURCH FATHERS: On Christian Discipline (Commodianus)).

…that true and just Sabbath should be observed in the seventh millenary of years. Wherefore to those seven days the Lord attributed to each a thousand years; for thus went the warning: "In Your eyes, O Lord, a thousand years are as one day." Therefore in the eyes of the Lord each thousand of years is ordained, for I find that the Lord's eyes are seven. Wherefore, as I have narrated, that true Sabbath will be in the seventh millenary of years, when Christ with His elect shall reign. (Victorinus. Commentary on the Creation. Translated by Robert Ernest Wallis. From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 7. Edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1886.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight).

uh,they were also confused about the "1st resurrection"

They thought it was one and the same with the GWTJ.

So you need to embrace that one also.
(remember you must embrace all they believed as if the Holy Father himself said every word they uttered.)

 

[popeye]

The Word you refer to is the Bible. It has been the source of all the false teachings. One only needs to look around the sola scriptura landscape to know that anything goes. Man can devise any teaching he desires and base it on scripture. It has been a rich and bountiful harvest for Satan.

You have failed to show it is totally wrong. You could not even get beyond your own personal imput, let alone all the well known promoters over the last 50 years. Nothing historically and surely nothing about the Church to whom it was given ONCE in the beginning and preserved by the Holy Spirit within Christ's Body.

So,we can conclude luther and the other reformers were wrong,and purchasing family members from hell is as simple as an indulgence from the pope?

 

[DP]

Hi DP,

I have never read anything by Darby or anyone else. My conclusion for the pre-trib, pre-first seal, resurrection and catching away (RCA) comes from my own personal studies.

Then how do you interpret these following words by our Lord Jesus about the timing of the tribulation He warned us about...

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV



Also, if you read 2 Thess.2:1-4 how it is actually written, there is no way to put Apostle Paul's timing of Christ's coming and gathering of the Church prior to the coming of that false one who is to exalt himself as God in the temple in Jerusalem.

The problem with mid and post trib position remains the same, which is the wrath of God which must take place prior to Christ's return to end the age. Paul describes the RCA in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and he then follows it with the wrath of God, which he says we are not appointed to suffer. The Thessalonians wrote to Paul because there were some who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place and the reason for their concern to Paul was that they were still here on earth, that is, they had not been caught up with the resurrected group according to the teaching. In other words, if the resurrection has already taken place, then why are we still here Paul? Why haven't we been caught up? And of course Paul comforts and reassures them by letting them know that the resurrection had not yet taken place and when it would.

Yes, I am aware there were false crept in unawares within Christ's Body then that were distorting things. Paul mentions that in the 2 Thess.2 chapter also, which is why he gave the order of events for Christ's coming to gather the Church there. Yet we still have to read what Paul wrote line upon line, and not just skip around only noticing certain verses.

Paul in the 1 Thess.5 chapter, is covering some things from the OT prophets about the events leading up to the end of this world.

The "day of the Lord" idea, the time of "Peace and safety", the "travail upon a woman with child" idea, the "sudden destruction" idea, the "drunken in the night" idea, are all... ideas from the OT prophets about the end, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. That's where Paul is pulling from with those ideas. Same with the idea of God's wrath there.

The specific "wrath" Paul is teaching there in 1 Thess.5:9 is about God's wrath upon the wicked when that time of "sudden destruction" upon them comes; that wrath is not Satan's wrath during the tribulation timing.

In Isaiah, God gave symbolic examples of His wrath affecting the wicked. One example He showed it would be like a man that is starving and dreams of a feast of food before him, then the man wakes up and immediately notices he's still hungry. He also showed in Isaiah that it will come upon them "at an instant, suddenly" (Isa.29:5). Those are the kind of Scriptures Apostle Paul was pulling from in the OT prophets.

Yet the pre-trib rapture theology says that "wrath" Paul mentions there is the great tribulation, which would be the time of Satan's wrath upon us. It doesn't take much common sense to realize that Satan's time of wrath is not upon the wicked, but instead that time of "Peace and safety" Paul says they will be proclaiming means the wicked are being deceived by Satan in that tribulation time and think they are safe; which means their "sudden destruction" is not yet during that "Peace and safety". Here's is the order of Paul's OT references:

Satan's wrath - tribulation timing:
"Peace and safety" the wicked will proclaim
"travail upon a woman with child"
"drunken in the night"
"sleep in the night"

God's time of "wrath" after that:
"day of the Lord"
"as a thief"
the "sudden destruction" ("at an instant, suddenly" per Isa.29:5)
the "wrath" we are not appointed to

 

[DP]

Hi DP,

In the verse above it says, "they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters," I don't even have to read the rest of the verse and that because the words "But you, brothers and sisters" would infer the opposite of not escaping. In other words, they will not escape, but you brothers and sisters will.

Well, Paul did not say "I don't even have to read the rest of the verse and that because..." you're going to escape. You misunderstand that.

1 Thess 5:1-2
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
KJV

Paul said to them that he had no 'need' to write them about those "times and the seasons", because why? Because they already... knew them (i.e., "For yourselves know perfectly that...").

They already understood from the OT prophets about the events leading up to that "day of the Lord". They knew that day would come upon the wicked "as a thief in the night". That's what Paul was writing to them. That's all the Scripture they had at that time, the OT writings.

When we read Paul mentioning that "day of the Lord" phrase, that immediately means we are to go back in the OT prophets and read where he is pulling all this from. That's how we in Christ Jesus are to study the New Testament Word. We are not to remain ignorant of the OT prophets when referenced in the NT, because we were admonished to be mindful of them too (2 Pet.3:2).

The pre-trib rapture theology instead dwells upon the idea of that single word "escape". Just by reading that sole word, why pay attention to anything else Paul taught there, right??

How will they escape? By the teaching that Paul had just given previously regarding the resurrection and catching away. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall prevail against it." That being said, God is not going to take those who have received his Son as Lord and savior and who are continuing to be faithful, bringing forth the fruit of the Spirit and then send them through the same wrath of God that those who have rejected his Son and are continuing to live sinful nature will be going through. It's not going to happen! This is not God's nature.

That part in italics are your own words and ideas, they are not what Scripture is teaching. If that were so, then there would be no... Scriptures of warning by our Lord Jesus to His elect about the time of "great tribulation". Nor would Apostle Paul be showing us about this "wrath" coming upon the wicked at the time of "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord". Nor would Paul in Ephesians 6 be telling us to make a "stand", having the full armor of God on in order to stand in the "evil day"!!!

Nor would our Lord Jesus foretell us that some of us will be delivered up to councils and synagogues at the end during the time of affliction (tribulation) to give a Testimony for Him (Mark 13).

Nor would our Lord Jesus have given us His command to 'watch' in the last days, so that when the thief comes our house won't be broken up (end of Matt.24).

Those you've been listening to have taken that word "escape" and just ran with it, disregarding the meat of Paul's Message from the OT prophets in that 1 Thess.5 chapter. Paul does not have to mention in that chapter that we will still be on earth through that time of "Peace of safety" which is aligned with the tribulation timing, simply because there's plenty enough Scripture elsewhere to show that, including the Scriptures of the OT prophets where he was pulling from with his phrases I quoted in my previous post.

This wrath that is coming will be unprecedented, a time of great distress such as the world has not seen, from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again and therefore, God will remove his church prior to this time of wrath known as the day of the Lord and as that hour of trial. After Paul told them about the RCA he said, "therefore, comfort each other with these words." That being said, if the church was to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, there would be no comfort for anyone.

The "wrath" Paul is speaking of is not the trib timing. It's God's "wrath" upon the wicked on the "day of the Lord" when our Lord Jesus comes "as a thief in the night". Jesus' coming will not be "as a thief" upon His elect that heed Him, because they will be watching those "times and the seasons" Paul was writing about in that 1 Thess.5 chapter. The Thessalonians Paul wrote that to already knew those things, yet how is it those on the pre-trib rapture theory do not???

 

[Cassian]

So,we can conclude luther and the other reformers were wrong,and purchasing family members from hell is as simple as an indulgence from the pope?

You'll need to ask an RCC about that.

 

[VCO]

The Word you refer to is the Bible. It has been the source of all the false teachings. One only needs to look around the sola scriptura landscape to know that anything goes. Man can devise any teaching he desires and base it on scripture. It has been a rich and bountiful harvest for Satan.

You have failed to show it is totally wrong. You could not even get beyond your own personal imput, let alone all the well known promoters over the last 50 years. Nothing historically and surely nothing about the Church to whom it was given ONCE in the beginning and preserved by the Holy Spirit within Christ's Body.

CASSIAN, are you saying you are NOT a Christian?

Did you lie when you filled out the membership form?

So why are you here?

Is it just to sow discord among those of us who genuinely believe what the Bible says,
and believe that ALL of the Bible genuinely was inspired by God Himself?

 

[DP]

uh,they were also confused about the "1st resurrection"

They thought it was one and the same with the GWTJ.

So you need to embrace that one also.
(remember you must embrace all they believed as if the Holy Father himself said every word they uttered.)

What????

All I need embrace is what our Heavenly Father showed us in His Word. The fact that many of the early Church fathers also understood about a final period of a thousand years prior to God's new heavens and a new earth simply means they kept God's Word as written also.

And by the way, there was no "bishop of bishops" (pope) office in Rome until close to the end of the 3rd century A.D. So many of those early Church fathers were not part of the Catholic system. If you do your research, you'll discover the office of the pope or "bishop of bishops" at it was first called, was started because of bishops spread out between Rome and Byzantine were wanting to do their own thing. So a head bishop office was created, i.e, the pope. And in Britain during the time of King James, they refused to recognize any papal authority over them, which was addressed in the KJV translator's Letters included in the original edition of the 1611 King James Version.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. KJV

What does the above have to do with God not putting his church through God's wrath? The above are just the signs leading up to his return to end the age found in Mt.24. Also, Mt.24:29-31 is not a resurrection and catching away, but is synonymous with the parable in Mt.13 of the wheat and the weeds, where the Lord sends out the harvester's/angels and they "First" collect the weeds, then after that they collect the wheat. In Mt.24:31 where it says:

"And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Regarding the above, this is where Jesus returns to the earth to end of the age, where he sends out his angels to gather the wheat. This is not the resurrection and catching away mentioned in 1 Thes.4:13-18, but this is where the angels will be gathering the great tribulation saints (wheat) who make it through to the end of that seven years, and will still be in their mortal bodies. These along with the woman/Israel who is cared for out in the desert for that last 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) are those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

The "day of the Lord" idea, the time of "Peace and safety", the "travail upon a woman with child" idea, the "sudden destruction" idea, the "drunken in the night" idea, are all... ideas from the OT prophets about the end, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. That's where Paul is pulling from with those ideas. Same with the idea of God's wrath there.

Regarding the above, Paul is not pulling anything from OT writings, but is relaying what the Lord had given him through revelations and visions directly. Those prophets of the OT were not privy to the resurrection and catching away as being what initiated the day of the Lord, they just knew that it was a time of darkness, wrath and fierce anger. The event of the living being changed and caught up, Paul called a "Mystery" meaning that it was something that was once hidden but is now being revealed and therefore, it was unknown up to the time that Paul received it and made it known.

The specific "wrath" Paul is teaching there in 1 Thess.5:9 is about God's wrath upon the wicked when that time of "sudden destruction" upon them comes;

that wrath is not Satan's wrath during the tribulation timing.

God's wrath, which is carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will be in affect during that entire seven year period, in fact, the first seal is that man of lawlessness, (the rider on the white horse) who makes his covenant for that last seven year period. God's wrath will be running parallel to everything that the beast and the false prophet will be doing. As proof of this, when the first bowl is poured out, an ugly, painful sore will break out on those who have the mark of the beast. Also, when the four bowl is poured out, the beast's kingdom is plunged into spiritual darkness. These demonstrate that God's wrath is taking place during the beast's reign. In fact, everything that the beast will be doing is apart of God's wrath, as it will be apart of the fulfillment of that seventy sevens. In any case, you cannot separate God's wrath from the events of the beast and the false prophet and that because they are interwoven. God even uses the beast and the ten kings to destroy Mystery Babylon by putting it into their hearts to hate her and destroy her with fire.

Yet the pre-trib rapture theology says that "wrath" Paul mentions there is the great tribulation, which would be the time of Satan's wrath upon us. It doesn't take much common sense to realize that Satan's time of wrath is not upon the wicked, but instead that time of "Peace and safety" Paul says they will be proclaiming means the wicked are being deceived by Satan in that tribulation time and think they are safe; which means their "sudden destruction" is not yet during that "Peace and safety". Here's is the order of Paul's OT references:

That entire last seven years is the completion of God's prophecy regarding Israel and Jerusalem, as can be seen from the following:

"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place (Dan.9:24)

Seven of those seven's (49 years) were to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. After the end of sixty-two sevens (434 years) the Anointed One would be cut off (Christ crucified), which completed sixty-nine of the seven year periods (483 years). At that time God put aside that last seven, which was to be fulfilled in the future, and began to build his church, which is currently still on-going. Once the church as been completed, then the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead and living will be gathered to meet him in the air where he will take us back to the Father's house according to his promise in John 14:1-3. Once the church is removed, God will then take up where he left off and initiate that last seven years in fulfillment of the prophecy of the seventy sevens. Therefore, that last seven years belongs to the prophesy that God decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem and should not be considered as a time of Satan's wrath, as though it were a separate event, but is actually apart of God's fulfillment of that prophecy.

The Lamb/Jesus, is the One who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowl judgments as everything that the beast and the false prophet will be performing, which means that he is the One who initiating the wrath of God and last seven. The events of the beast is part of God's plan for that time of testing that Jesus spoke of,

"Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world." (Rev.3:10)

Conclusion: The last seven year period will be the fulfillment of that decree of seventy sevens that was pronounced upon Israel and her holy city Jerusalem. And therefore, everything that Satan, the beast and the false prophet will be doing during that time are apart of that decree of seventy sevens and is therefore apart of God's plan, with Satan, the beast and the false prophet as being apart of it. The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the wrath of God and therefore, the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Well, Paul did not say "I don't even have to read the rest of the verse and that because..." you're going to escape. You misunderstand that.

You need to pay attention to what you are reading. I did not say that Paul said, "I don't even have to read the rest of the verse and that because". I said, I cut the verse short just mentioning "but you brothers" and that because by saying that it immediately infers the opposite of "Not escaping" meaning that they would not escape, but the brothers would.

"They shall not escape, but you brothers are not in darkness that this day should take you by surprise." It won't take them by surprise because they will be looking for and anticipating the Lord's appearing and will be caught up to meet him in the air, which is how they will escape.

 

[DP]

What does the above have to do with God not putting his church through God's wrath? The above are just the signs leading up to his return to end the age found in Mt.24. Also, Mt.24:29-31 is not a resurrection and catching away, but is synonymous with the parable in Mt.13 of the wheat and the weeds, where the Lord sends out the harvester's/angels and they "First" collect the weeds, then after that they collect the wheat. In Mt.24:31 where it says:

"And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Regarding the above, this is where Jesus returns to the earth to end of the age, where he sends out his angels to gather the wheat. This is not the resurrection and catching away mentioned in 1 Thes.4:13-18, but this is where the angels will be gathering the great tribulation saints (wheat) who make it through to the end of that seven years, and will still be in their mortal bodies. These along with the woman/Israel who is cared for out in the desert for that last 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) are those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

You are misled. That Matt.24:29-31 Scripture is about Jesus' 2nd coming when He will gather His elect that He brings with Him, i.e., the asleep saints that have already died per 1 Thess.4. That's why it declares those are gathered "...from one end of heaven to the other."

Matt 24:31
31 And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


In the Mark 13:27 version of that, He gathers His elect "... from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." That is about the "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4 about the Church on earth still alive at His 2nd coming.

And in both of those examples, He shows that will occur "... after that tribulation" He taught:

Mark 13:24-26
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
KJV

Do you deny that Scripture being about Jesus' 2nd coming "after that tribulation" to gather those?

Regarding the above, Paul is not pulling anything from OT writings, but is relaying what the Lord had given him through revelations and visions directly. Those prophets of the OT were not privy to the resurrection and catching away as being what initiated the day of the Lord, they just knew that it was a time of darkness, wrath and fierce anger. The event of the living being changed and caught up, Paul called a "Mystery" meaning that it was something that was once hidden but is now being revealed and therefore, it was unknown up to the time that Paul received it and made it known.

Oh, but yes Apostle Paul most definitely is... pulling ideas from the OT prophets in that 1 Thess.5 chapter, especially from the Book of Isaiah. You simply show that you have not studied those prophets, which by your words against it I'm not surprised.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Word you refer to is the Bible. It has been the source of all the false teachings. One only needs to look around the sola scriptura landscape to know that anything goes. Man can devise any teaching he desires and base it on scripture. It has been a rich and bountiful harvest for Satan.

Regarding this, scripture says:

======================================
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim.3:16)

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Pet.1:20)

"I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (Gal.1:11)

=====================================

Cassian, as VCO has pointed out, if you are believing that the Bible is the source of all false teachings, how is it that you have been quoting from it, Although erroneously? Also, if you truly believe that, you cannot possibly be a Christian and that because the Bible that you say is false, is the same Bible that proclaims that Christ was crucified, buried and resurrected, which would mean that you believe that this false as well. If the Bible wasn't the true word of God, then we would all be lost, for his word is the source of all truth. Regarding this, the scriptures above speak for themselves.

 

[DP]

You need to pay attention to what you are reading. I did not say that Paul said, "I don't even have to read the rest of the verse and that because". I said, I cut the verse short just mentioning "but you brothers" and that because by saying that it immediately infers the opposite of "Not escaping" meaning that they would not escape, but the brothers would.

"They shall not escape, but you brothers are not in darkness that this day should take you by surprise." It won't take them by surprise because they will be looking for and anticipating the Lord's appearing and will be caught up to meet him in the air, which is how they will escape.

I'm trying to get you to not add ideas outside that 1 Thess.5 that are not in it. The "escape" phrase Apostle Paul used is in the negative as to those deceived upon whom the "sudden destruction" will come. That's is what they shall not 'escape'. That's why he gave that "Peace and safety" idea they will be saying, because they think they will be safe, and that real peace has finally come upon the earth.

Nowhere in that 1 Thess.5 chapter does Paul say we shall escape the tribulation. Saying that is an addition to that Scripture.

And once again, that "wrath" Paul said there that we are not appointed to, is the time of GOD's wrath upon those wicked who will be saying that "Peace and safety", and they shall not escape when that "sudden destruction" comes upon "them". It's God's wrath they shall not... escape. That's Paul's meaning there.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'm trying to get you to not add ideas outside that 1 Thess.5 that are not in it. The "escape" phrase Apostle Paul used is in the negative as to those deceived upon whom the "sudden destruction" will come. That's is what they shall not 'escape'. That's why he gave that "Peace and safety" idea they will be saying, because they think they will be safe, and that real peace has finally come upon the earth.

Nowhere in that 1 Thess.5 chapter does Paul say we shall escape the tribulation. Saying that is an addition to that Scripture.

And once again, that "wrath" Paul said there that we are not appointed to, is the time of GOD's wrath upon those wicked who will be saying that "Peace and safety", and they shall not escape when that "sudden destruction" comes upon "them". It's God's wrath they shall not... escape. That's Paul's meaning there.

What they shall not escape is the wrath that will follow the resurrection and catching away that Paul had just previously outlined. And you are not understanding that no matter what you proclaim, God will not put his church through his time of wrath which covers that entire seven years. Therefore, regardless of anything that you bring about, believers must be gone prior to that first seal being opened.

 

[valiant]

Same ole,same ole. I hand you the word (mat 24 and 25 Noah,Lot and the 10 virgins),you respond with ;" you have no verses",then you go outside the word with rabbit trails (darby etc)

It's like every single time,you guys get shellacked in a bible study, resort to extra biblical mess and rabbit trails,then top off your false mess with non issues.

When will you guys get it? There is no such thing as "first doctrine is correct"

If that were true the church would BE FORCED to reject Paul's correction of Peter.
You are basically saying peter was right in that he said it first,so we can invoke all early church false doctrine as truth.

what a sad argument which brings out the fallacy of your position. Peter did not TEACH Judaistic practises he simply allowed himself to be carried away with them. If he had taught them then they would have had the Holy Spirit's seal and PAUL WOULD HAVE BEEN WRONG. Peter was not practising what he preached. Thus your argument (like every argument of yours on this subject) collapses.
.

 

[valiant]

What they shall not escape is the wrath that will follow the resurrection and catching away that Paul had just previously outlined. And you are not understanding that no matter what you proclaim, God will not put his church through his time of wrath which covers that entire seven years. Therefore, regardless of anything that you bring about, believers must be gone prior to that first seal being opened.

MY God is able to keep us through anything that comes and will do so. We don't have to run away. our hand is in His.

God has never promised to keep s out of a world enduring His wrath. otherwise we would have been taken out in Rom 1.18