Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

[BenjaminN]

Yes first resurrection is firstfruits Jesus.
Then the dead in christ.

Nothing there saying different.

Nothing there saying Jesus or dead in Christ resurrected after the gt.

You saying Jesus is not resurrected?

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

4...Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The first resurrection since Jesus

Revelation was written down for an audience who are aware of Jesus' historical resurrection & are being told of things yet to come

 

[Lisamn]

Yes it will be an orderly reigned Kingdom under Christ Yeshua, for a 1000 years, with full adherence to God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit's will/commandments/law universally throughout the whole world, before culminating at its end (before the final resurrection and judgement of all) in the last and final battle on this earth, the battle of Gog and Magog.

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

Isaiah 66 (New King James Version)

22“For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

24“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

I guess we both have different thoughts on what a kingdom ruled with iron means.

 

[Lisamn]

first,I really think those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture as" escapists," trying to avoid all trouble or persecution.

second,The truth is that we all fall asleep, and then the day of resurrection. Only very few people in the Bible skip this process,But this is not the universality of a theory,such as "You're in the office,when rapture happen and you hit on the roof"

I don't think pointing out the real problem is to sow dissension.But I think people are using all kinds of understanding of scriptures to sow dissension,Or take it out of context.

Proverbs‬ ‭27:17‬ ‭
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.
​

The scripture you remind me of is great.

but I want to give up. If words really make people understand clearly,If the truth is also considered to sow discord,I give up.

Some things can only be understood by people's own experience,
No other way can make people admit that they are wrong. Because people are proud, so the Bible tells us be humble.

Pre tribbers have the mistaken notion that somehow God doesn’t want them to go through the worst time the world has ever seen, totally avoiding the fact that God has let His chosen people go through really tough times. Since God is the same yesterday, today and forever..then that must mean that they do seem to be escapists.

When Jesus talks to the churches in revelation He tells them to overcome...not they will be taken out. I think instead of giving up..perhaps think about what you say as planting seeds? I also think of this verse..

1 Corinthians 15:58
Therefore, my beloved bretheren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.
​

Don’t give up speaking the truth in love.

 

[BenjaminN]

I guess we both have different thoughts on what a kingdom ruled with iron means.

There will be peace in Christ Yeshua's Millennial Kingdom, where He will rule the world, and subdue all peoples to peace, with His iron rod rule from Jerusalem in Israel.

Micah 4 (New King James Version)

3He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into [a]pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Micah 4 (New King James Version)

The Lord’s Reign in Zion
1Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the Lord’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2Many nations shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into [a]pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

 

[Lisamn]

There will be peace in Christ Yeshua's Millennial Kingdom, where He will rule the world, and subdue all peoples to peace, with His iron rod rule from Jerusalem in Israel.

Micah 4 (New King James Version)

3He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into [a]pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Micah 4 (New King James Version)

The Lord’s Reign in Zion
1Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the Lord’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2Many nations shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into [a]pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Isn’t this in the new heavens and the new earth? Which always confused me because God again mentions nations and kings. Are there going to also be unbelievers in the new heaven and the new earth? Or does that mean that its a natural thing to have kings and nations amongst the people? I don’t really know what to make of it since kings and nations are usually unbelieving.

It kind of seems with people there is always conflict somewhere..since He will be rebuking strong nations afar off...maybe they won’t be doing war against one another..but there seems to be some sort of conflicts to be rebuked about.

 

[BenjaminN]

Isn’t this in the new heavens and the new earth? Which always confused me because God again mentions nations and kings. Are there going to also be unbelievers in the new heaven and the new earth? Or does that mean that its a natural thing to have kings and nations amongst the people? I don’t really know what to make of it since kings and nations are usually unbelieving.

It kind of seems with people there is always conflict somewhere..since He will be rebuking strong nations afar off...maybe they won’t be doing war against one another..but there seems to be some sort of conflicts to be rebuked about.

I would say the text refers to Christ Yeshua's 1000 years Millennial Kingdom, and not the new heaven and earth, as it says that swords and spears are changed into plowshares and pruning hooks - inferring that there were swords and spears before. The new heaven and earth will only be inhabited ever since its inception, by those who were saved by God (without the need of swords and spears at any time), and the rest of lost mankind would then, since the start of the new heaven and earth, be in the pool of fire.

Micah 4 (New King James Version)

3He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into [a]pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Isn’t this in the new heavens and the new earth? Which always confused me because God again mentions nations and kings. Are there going to also be unbelievers in the new heaven and the new earth? Or does that mean that its a natural thing to have kings and nations amongst the people? I don’t really know what to make of it since kings and nations are usually unbelieving.

It kind of seems with people there is always conflict somewhere..since He will be rebuking strong nations afar off...maybe they won’t be doing war against one another..but there seems to be some sort of conflicts to be rebuked about.

"He will settle disputes between many nations" (Micha 4:3) Is when he reigns on David's throne as promised. "The millennial reign", Heaven on earth yes but not the whole new heavens & earth he will create after the old order of things passes away. (Rev 21) There might be whole new laws of nature from that time on. An incorruptible universe.

After the millennial reign when Satan is set free one more time- I believe this gives people alive on earth at that time the opportunity to choose between Jesus as King of Earth or rebellion. The same chance we have had. Despite his rule of peace many will still try to war against him under the influence of Satan. (Rev 20)

 

[Lisamn]

I would say the text refers to Christ Yeshua's 1000 years Millennial Kingdom, and not the new heaven and earth, as it says that swords and spears are changed into plowshares and pruning hooks - inferring that there were swords and spears before. The new heaven and earth will only be inhabited ever since its inception, by those who were saved by God (without the need of swords and spears at any time), and the rest of lost mankind would then, since the start of the new heaven and earth, be in the pool of fire.

Micah 4 (New King James Version)

3He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into [a]pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Revelation‬ ‭21:10, 23-27‬ ‭
“And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
‭‭​

The nations will still be around in the New Jerusalem...its says that nothing unclean will come into the city..but does that mean that there are still unclean outside the city? Idk.


As for the Milennium..doesn’t seem like they learned peace..

Revelation‬ ‭20:7-8‬ ‭‬‬
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.”​

‭‭

 

[Lisamn]

"He will settle disputes between many nations" (Micha 4:3) Is when he reigns on David's throne as promised. "The millennial reign", Heaven on earth yes but not the whole new heavens & earth he will create after the old order of things passes away. (Rev 21) There might be whole new laws of nature from that time on. An incorruptible universe.

After the millennial reign when Satan is set free one more time- I believe this gives people alive on earth at that time the opportunity to choose between Jesus as King of Earth or rebellion. The same chance we have had. Despite his rule of peace many will still try to war against him under the influence of Satan. (Rev 20)

Ya, they will make war against God again...so did they beat their swords into plowshares? Sounds like the same sinful problems go on in the Millennium..which the clue Jesus rules with iron comes into play? I don’t know that the Jews are saved by the blood of Jesus before the Millennium or have just realized that He is their Messiah...and God then rules over them for 1000 years. It isn’t until the new heavens and the new earth that God is the actual light of the world and lives with us. Even then I’m not so sure that there won’t be sinners outside the gate...but I am just thinking on that..its not gospel to me.

 

[BenjaminN]

Revelation‬ ‭21:10, 23-27‬ ‭
“And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
‭‭​

The nations will still be around in the New Jerusalem...its says that nothing unclean will come into the city..but does that mean that there are still unclean outside the city? Idk.


As for the Milennium..doesn’t seem like they learned peace..

Revelation‬ ‭20:7-8‬ ‭‬‬
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.”​

‭‭

During the whole of the 1000 years of Christ Yeshua's Millennial Kingdom iron rod reign, there will be peace while Satan is bound. When Satan is released by God after the 1000 years, and allowed to deceive the nations one final time into war (even in the presence of Christ Yeshua himself, and God's resurrected saints), the last battle on earth, the battle of Gog and Magog happens, before final judgement, before the pool of fire for the damned and the new heavens and earth for Israel and those from the nations that was saved.

Revelation 21 (New King James Version)

All Things Made New
1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The Glory of the New Jerusalem
22But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine [l]in it, for the [m]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24And the nations [n]of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

 

[Lisamn]

For the 1000 years there will be peace while Satan is bound. When he is released by God after the 1000 years, and allowed to deceive the nations one final time, the last battle on earth, the battle of Gog and Magog happens, before final judgement, before the pool of fire for the damned and the new heavens and earth for Israel and those from the nations that was saved.

Revelation 21 (New King James Version)

All Things Made New
1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The Glory of the New Jerusalem
22But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine [l]in it, for the [m]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24And the nations [n]of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

If they can go to war against God so readily then did they really beat their swords into plowshares? I don’t think so.

 

[Kolistus]

I am ok with that.

Postrib adherents ( and others) try and make it say the 1st resurrection is after the gt.

I believe that as well. That there is a resurrection of people at the start of the millenium, Moses and those people?

 

[BenjaminN]

If they can go to war against God so readily then did they really beat their swords into plowshares? I don’t think so.

It is after a 1000 years, that they go to war against God, when Satan is not bounded by God any more, and released by God for the purpose of God's greatness... Before this, they had beat their swords into plowshares at the start of the 1000 years when Christ Yeshua started his Millennial Kingdom reign on earth at his second coming.

 

[Lisamn]

It is after a 1000 years, when Satan is not bounded any more... They beat their swords into plowshares at the beginning of the 1000 years.

But they were ready for war by the end of it? It doesn’t make sense to me...especially when Jesus rules with a rod of iron. If it was all peaceful does He still have to rule with a rod of iron?

 

[BenjaminN]

But they were ready for war by the end of it? It doesn’t make sense to me...especially when Jesus rules with a rod of iron. If it was all peaceful does He still have to rule with a rod of iron?

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

Satan Bound 1,000 Years
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Lisamn]

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

Satan Bound 1,000 Years
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I’m not sure why you posted this.

 

[BenjaminN]

I’m not sure why you posted this.

Satan deceives the nations into battle and war. During the 1000 years of Christ Yeshua's Millennial Kingdom reign with an iron rod, Satan is bound by God and unable to deceive the nations into battle and war - and hence there is peace between the nations from any battle of war, for a 1000 years. It is what Revelation 20:1-10 communicates to us Christians, as posted above.

 

[Lisamn]

Satan deceives the nations into battle and war. During the 1000 years of Christ Yeshua's Millennial Kingdom reign with an iron rod, Satan is bound by God and unable to deceive the nations into battle and war - and hence there is peace between the nations from any battle of war, for a 1000 years. It is what Revelation 20:1-10 communicates to us Christians, as posted above.

How do you know that there is peace until then? The Bible gives us scarce info on the millennium. My point is that there isn’t a peace time in the millennium because Jesus rules with a rod of iron. You don’t have to rule with an rod of iron in peacetime do you?

 

[BenjaminN]

How do you know that there is peace until then? The Bible gives us scarce info on the millennium. My point is that there isn’t a peace time in the millennium because Jesus rules with a rod of iron. You don’t have to rule with an rod of iron in peacetime do you?

A just world Ruler, that rules with the only rod of iron in the Kingdom, will bring world peace among the nations - it's a simple concept. One world Kingdom, one peaceful world. Thankfully it is a just Kingdom, based on God's principles - and it will be peaceful without rebellion until the end of the 1000 years, when God unbounds Satan to deceive the nations into war.

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

Satan Bound 1,000 Years
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.