Is there a change in the direction of Christianity today?

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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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0
#1
A couple of years ago I became convicted that God's weekly Sabbath day was Friday at sunset to Saturday sunset and that no where in the Bible could I find the change to Sunday. It took awhile, but I finally became so convicted that I started resting completely, doing no ordinary work, at this time. Well, that opened my eyes to even more of God's Word to understand that His Laws were not done away with. As I read many of the threads and posts, I see more and more Christians who are keeping God's 7th day, His Feast Days, and His dietary laws. Some, of course, are still holding fast to the traditional mainstream christian teachings that God's son, whose name was Jesus (in the Greek...but Yeshua in Hebrew) nailed the Laws to the cross and we Christians do not obey them because they believe it is legalism and works.

The following I found to cover the basics of what many are now calling Hebrew Roots Movement:

**NOTICE** I am not accusing anyone of anything. God is sovereign and I do believe we are moving back to the "ancient paths" and we are seeing a change in mainstream Christianity.

Many are believing Jesus was Born on Tabernacles.
"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us…" (John 1:14) We can calculate the birth of John the baptist based on his father's temple service. "…a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah…" (Luke 1:5) This places the birth of John at Passover, and the birth of the Messiah 6 months later at Tabernacles. Because Mary became pregnant six months after Elizabeth. "Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month…" (Luke 1:36)

His name is Yeshua.
"You shall call his name Yeshua (salvation), for it is he who shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21) Yeshua means "salvation". The name "Jesus" was an English word that was created 500 years ago in an attempt to transliterate the Greek word "Iesous", which was a transliteration of "Yeshua" or "Yehoshua". We can see this from the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament), because that is how they translated the Hebrew into Greek.

Came for the "Lost sheep of Israel
".But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)The lost sheep of Israel are the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom (The house of Israel) that were scattered among the nations. They were given a divorce from YHVH, and were exiled. Only the house of Judah remained in the land. Prophesy says that the Messiah will gather back the lost tribes, and reunite all of Israel in his kingdom. This is the purpose of the Messiah. However, he is also a light to the Gentiles to bring salvation to the ends of the earth. "Indeed He says, 'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.' " (Isaiah 49:6) - This is referred to in the Grafting in of Gentiles into Israel.

Kept Sabbath perfectly.
"He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read." (Luke 4:16) His custom was to attend synagogue on the Sabbath.

Taught his Father's commandments.
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to make full. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-19) - He came to bring fulness to the commandments. If anyone teaches that we should break even the least commandment - that person will be least in the Kingdom. Do you think that Messiah is going to be "least" in the kingdom? NO! He fully taught the Torah perfectly, and instructed all men to follow it.

"So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17) - Again he is encouraging people to obey the commandments.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19) - The son only does what the Father does.


Died on Passover.
"You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified." (Matthew 26:2) "Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Messiah, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast…" (1Corinthians 5:7-8)

Buried on Unleavened bread.
"Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Yeshua." (Mark 15:42-43)
"On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord… you shall do no customary work on it" (Leviticus 23:5-7)

Resurrected on FirstFruits.
"Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb." (Matthew 28:1) - the day after the Sabbath during the Feast of Unleavened bread is FirstFruits. "you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest… on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it." (Leviticus 23:10,11) - FirstFruits is the day after the weekly Sabbath during the Feast of Unleavened bread. "But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep…But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming." (1Corinthians 15:20,23)

In the grave for 3 days and 3 nights.
According to popular theology, Messiah was buried friday night, and rose from the grave on sunday morning. The best you can get out of that is 2 nights and 1 day. However, if he was buried wednesday night Passover (night 1), thursday "High Sabbath" (day 1), thursday night (night 2), friday preparation day of the weekly Sabbath (day 2), friday night (night 3) saturday Sabbath (day 3), then he resurrected at the end of the Sabbath, the moment that the day of FirstFruits began. That gives us 3 full days and 3 full nights. The women came to the tomb early that morning before the sunrise, and the tomb was already empty and Messiah was long gone. "Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, WHILE IT WAS STILL DARK, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb." (John 20:1)

Nailed our sins to the cross.
"who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed." (1Peter 2:24) - he took our sins with him on the tree, so that we might also die to sin. "…How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? … knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin … For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all… Likewise you also, consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Messiah Yeshua our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." (Romans 6:2,6,7,10,11,12) - our old sinful self was crucified with him, so that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Fulfilled the Law as our example.
" For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps" (1Peter 2:21) "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walkjust as He walked." (1John 2:6) "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master." (Matthew 10:24,25)


Replaced nothing.
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to make full. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-19) - he did not come to take away, or even modify the Law.


Taught the Law of Moses was about himself.
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me." (John 5:46)
"These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." (Luke 24:44)


Opposed man-made laws and traditions (not in the Torah)
"For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold… Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" … And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men…" (Mark 7:3-8) - He upheld the commandments in the Torah, but opposed the traditions and commandments of men that were not in the Torah.


Grafted Gentiles into Israel.
"And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either… also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved…" (Romans 11:17-26) - Israel is the cultivated Olive tree, and the Gentiles are the wild branches that have been grafted in.


Is the Lord of the Sabbath.
"Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord." (Exodus 16:23) "but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord… Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:10,11) "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord." (Exodus 35:2) "Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings." (Leviticus 23:3) "but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord" (Deuteronomy 5:14) "call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the Lord honorable" (Isaiah 58:13) - the Sabbath was established by and belongs to the Lord. Who is the Lord of the Sabbath? "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:8) "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath." (Mark 2:28)

Will return at the appointed time.
"Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'The appointed times of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My appointed times … In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation." (Leviticus 23:2,24) - The "Feasts of the LORD" are God's "appointed times" that He has set on His calendar. Remember that Messiah died on Passover, was buried on Unleavened Bread, resurrected on FirstFruits, and sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (feast of weeks). Those are the spring Feasts of the Lord. The fall Feasts are waiting to be fulfilled in his return. Trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles will be fulfilled when Messiah returns. "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:30-31) "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1Corinthians 15:51-52) "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (1Thessalonians 4:16)


Peter's confession is the foundation of faith.
"You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Yeshua answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Yonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. I also tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly (Greek "ekklēsian" means "called out ones"), and the gates of hades will not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:16-18) - the Catholic church claims that Peter is the foundation, but it is actually his confession that Yeshua is the Messiah that is the foundation. Also, "church" is not the correct translation of "ekklesia". It is better to translate it as "assembly".


Wants you to be a disciple.
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations…" (Matthew 28:19) - we are told to "make disciples", we are NOT told to tell people to just pray a prayer to be saved. We are told things like, "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 10:22) - what must we "endure" if all it takes is praying a prayer? "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24) - why is it so difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom, if all he has to do is pray a prayer? "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) - is praying a prayer considered the narrow difficult path, or the wide easy road that many take? or is being a disciple and obeying the commands and teachings of the Father and His Messiah the narrow road that only a few find? "Yeshua began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17) - repent means to turn away from our sin and obey God. Why is our Messiah preaching "repent" if all we need to do is pray a prayer? "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:15) - again, this concept of "repenting" is directly connected to the gospel message. "Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent." (Revelation 2:5) - now he is telling an assembly of believers to repent, and do the "first works". If all we have to do is pray a prayer, then why are believers told to "repent"?


Wants you to live a holy life.
"as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." (1Peter 1:14-16) "For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness." (Romans 6:19) "But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit toholiness, and the end, everlasting life." (Romans 6:22) "For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness." (1Thessalonians 4:7)

The following picture is not meant to accuse, but for me personally is conviction and motivation to see and understand the Whole Bible and how OT and NT do fit perfectly together.





 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#2
Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.

Yes there is a change but not necessarily forgood. The current emphasis of returning to shadows instead of Him who casted the shadows is dangerous. Otherwise if a person chooses to live in types and shadows don't pressure those who rather walk in the Light of the Son.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
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#3
We should always be looking forward not back. The Old Testament is invaluable, because it shows how Christ would come and deliver the world from the bondage of sin and death. It was the book that the disciples and later the apostles used.

"Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, [SUP]14 [/SUP]I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anythingyou think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you." Phil 3:13-15

This is New Testament thinking. Our goal is Christ, not living the laws of the Old Testament.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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#4
Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.

Yes there is a change but not necessarily forgood. The current emphasis of returning to shadows instead of Him who casted the shadows is dangerous. Otherwise if a person chooses to live in types and shadows don't pressure those who rather walk in the Light of the Son.
Colossians is obviously a letter, with a beginning and end, serving a specific focus, and full of context. Paul told the Colossians to not let them selves be judged for KEEPING God’s commandments. We need to understand if the context is “commandments of men” or “commandments of God.” There is a difference. Men are not God.

We need to refrain from inserting context of our own bias. We do not want to make the common error of verse plucking scripture out of context and forcing a paradigm on it.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
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#5
Colossians is obviously a letter, with a beginning and end, serving a specific focus, and full of context. Paul told the Colossians to not let them selves be judged for KEEPING God’s commandments. We need to understand if the context is “commandments of men” or “commandments of God.” There is a difference. Men are not God.

We need to refrain from inserting context of our own bias. We do not want to make the common error of verse plucking scripture out of context and forcing a paradigm on it.
Do you know what One New Man means where there is neither Jew nor Gentile? Do you realize Jesus as High Priest (when He sat down on high) replaced the Levitical Pristhood thus enacting a new order? I've been in the Messianic movement and happen to know much of their pitfalls and backward thinking...but go ahead on.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
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#6
We should always be looking forward not back. The Old Testament is invaluable, because it shows how Christ would come and deliver the world from the bondage of sin and death. It was the book that the disciples and later the apostles used.

"Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, [SUP]14 [/SUP]I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anythingyou think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you." Phil 3:13-15

This is New Testament thinking. Our goal is Christ, not living the laws of the Old Testament.
I used to believe that the laws of the OT were done away with or nailed to the cross and I failed to know what was written in the OT, specifically the Torah, the first five books. I don't believe in NT Thinking because I believe the entire Bible, (ie. Bible Believer) OT and NT is the written Word of God and as our goal is Christ, we see and understand Him more fully as we study and apply all of the Word, OT and NT.

Have you ever considered this matter?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:17-19

Consider the following:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach...For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws...I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
Deut. 30:11,16,19,

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more... And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done!
Rev. 21:1, 5

Jesus/Yeshua did not come to abolish the Law and Prophets, but to fulfill all of the Law and Prophets.

Not one jot or tittle (any part of the law) will pass away until two criteria are met:

1) Heaven and Earth pass away (NOT DONE YET)

2) All of the Law and Prophets are fulfilled (NOT DONE YET)

Some will say, Yeshua clearly said on the cross "It is finished," thus, now jots and tittles can be removed from God's law.

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
John 19:30

What was finished?

Was all of the Law and Prophets finished?

Has heaven and Earth passed away?

Or, was it simply the plan of salvation (the cross) was finished?

Is the plan of salvation (the cross) concluding all of the Law and Prophets?

Did the cross cause Heaven and Earth pass away?

But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:13
 
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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
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#7
Do you know what One New Man means where there is neither Jew nor Gentile? Do you realize Jesus as High Priest (when He sat down on high) replaced the Levitical Pristhood thus enacting a new order? I've been in the Messianic movement and happen to know much of their pitfalls and backward thinking...but go ahead on.
“Although there are many different and diverse Hebrew Roots/Messianic movements assemblies with variations in their teachings, I believe Hebrew Roots focuses more on all of Israel, and really “Hebrew Roots,” hence the sometimes self appointed label “Hebrew Roots.” It is through this emphasis on the original backdrop, culture, and language in which the Scriptures were authored and understood, that beneficial perspective and application is gained. The emphasis is not on recovering “Jewishness” but actually the recovering the complete “Word of God” that has been admittedly discarded as obsolete and invalid by mainstream Christian doctrine.

As to the one new man, is not just a NT new idea. When the Israelites were led out of Egypt, many non-Israelites (Egyptians) also chose to follow the God of the Israelites. God's Grace clearly evident in OT.

The word "salvation" meaning "Y'shua in the KJV OT is used 78 times. Y'shua = Yah's Salvation.

There is a richness in studying both the OT and NT and seeing how they do not contradict. So Yes!! I GO AHEAD ON.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
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#8
Well WomanLovesTX, I was just wondering how much of the Old Testament you have read in Hebrew, if you believe in this Hebrew Roots movement so much?

I've just spent a year reading Hebrew, and nowhere do I find that we should be looking to anyone but Jesus Christ.

My thought is to learn Hebrew, instead of just copying and pasting articles, and read what it really says. Then decide if we need to go back and obey the law of the Torah, rather than the law of Jesus Christ.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#9
You're arguing semantics. Apart from the bit about Jesus wanting us to follow him (be his disciples), not just say the sinner's prayer and living a Holy life, not necessarily a happy life, I just don't see how it's all that important. The OT informs the NT but Jesus' New Covenant fulfilled the Old Covenant. Everything else is just arguing semantics.
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
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#10
A couple of years ago I became convicted that God's weekly Sabbath day was Friday at sunset to Saturday sunset and that no where in the Bible could I find the change to Sunday. It took awhile, but I finally became so convicted that I started resting completely, doing no ordinary work, at this time. Well, that opened my eyes to even more of God's Word to understand that His Laws were not done away with. As I read many of the threads and posts, I see more and more Christians who are keeping God's 7th day, His Feast Days, and His dietary laws. Some, of course, are still holding fast to the traditional mainstream christian teachings that God's son, whose name was Jesus (in the Greek...but Yeshua in Hebrew) nailed the Laws to the cross and we Christians do not obey them because they believe it is legalism and works.
You certainly posted a book there in that opening post.

There is much of what you say that is right on target. The problem is that it is mixed with some important misunderstandings and some inaccurate globalizing. However, in the huge amount of information you presented, it is impossible to address the discrepancies without responding back with a book. LOL.

I will piece-part it back to you in smaller portions.
 
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Oct 31, 2011
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#11
God is moving fast to give his people understanding. I was 35 years old in 1960. Then, the OT was studied but not to learn of God principles that apply to us. The feasts were strange cultish ideas that had nothing at all to do with God explaining His plan of salvation to us. That the word Easter is not in the bible at all never occurred to anyone. Now this is common knowledge.

It is amazing that people who resist what God is showing the world about Him is being denied with scripture passages that are misunderstood. They say scripture denies scripture, God speaks against God. There is a new covenant so all old ones aren't any good any more. That rainbow you saw wasn't real? Christ overcame the curse of death from the law, and that means Christ did away with law. God gave us the Holy Spirit to help us understand law, and being all law is of love, just ditch all written law. Love replaced and destroyed it. Some of this is in this very thread.

I think God is working, and God is in charge. So is Satan working. Satan does not want truth. And some of this has been given the name "Hebrew Roots". When men take over a revelation from God and put their own spin on it they sometimes get it mixerd up. Gossip has it that this word means that God isn't in charge, but men are in charge by their deeds. Or vaiations on that theme. Anyway, the simple truth that seems to be coming from God is that we are to learn from all scripture, every verse. That seems to be taken over by men to distort, and I am sure Satan wants us to stay far away from believing all scripture.

Satan takes NT verses explaining the change that Christ brought about, inserts the word cancel or destroy in us instead of change, and has a field day.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#12
“Although there are many different and diverse Hebrew Roots/Messianic movements assemblies with variations in their teachings, I believe Hebrew Roots focuses more on all of Israel, and really “Hebrew Roots,” hence the sometimes self appointed label “Hebrew Roots.” It is through this emphasis on the original backdrop, culture, and language in which the Scriptures were authored and understood, that beneficial perspective and application is gained. The emphasis is not on recovering “Jewishness” but actually the recovering the complete “Word of God” that has been admittedly discarded as obsolete and invalid by mainstream Christian doctrine.
They may say that is not the emphasis but I have seen some go from Messianic to denying Yeshua as their Messiah[/QUOTE]
As to the one new man, is not just a NT new idea. When the Israelites were led out of Egypt, many non-Israelites (Egyptians) also chose to follow the God of the Israelites. God's Grace clearly evident in OT.
That is not the One New Man Shaul described...

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(Eph 2:11-18)




The word "salvation" meaning "Y'shua in the KJV OT is used 78 times. Y'shua = Yah's Salvation.

There is a richness in studying both the OT and NT and seeing how they do not contradict. So Yes!! I GO AHEAD ON.
Yes there is a richness as long as you don't place Moses over Yeshua or even Paul; and see Abraham not Moses as the Father of our faith. I would advise you study carefully the Book of Hebrews.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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#13
Well WomanLovesTX, I was just wondering how much of the Old Testament you have read in Hebrew, if you believe in this Hebrew Roots movement so much?

I've just spent a year reading Hebrew, and nowhere do I find that we should be looking to anyone but Jesus Christ.

My thought is to learn Hebrew, instead of just copying and pasting articles, and read what it really says. Then decide if we need to go back and obey the law of the Torah, rather than the law of Jesus Christ.
So have you decided "to go back and obey the law of the Torah" is not the law of Jesus Christ? Jesus kept the Torah perfectly....not so that we don't have to....but as our perfect example. He railed against the "man-made traditions" that was making the law of no effect. The laws and ordinances of Temple sacrifice ended with His death and resurrection, but did God change? Did Christ change? And why does the Millenium Temple (Ezekiel 40-48) have sacrifices?

What is the law of Jesus Christ? To abolish or fulfill? That He showed us the intent of our hearts is evil? That our sins are forgiven and then what....keep on in "LAWLESSNESS"? God forbid! We obey because we want to live RIGHTEOUSLY. This is the fruit we shall be known by.

There is nothing greater than our Lord and Savior. We cannot do the work He did on the cross which was to abolish the curse of the law, not to abolish the law (Torah). We have the Holy Spirit living and guiding us. This is why I asked the question "Is there a change in Christianity today?" Is God bringing the lawlessness to our attention/awareness and bringing us to His Roots in these Last Days? Is the time that judgment begin with the house of God now?

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Torah means 1)Direction, 2)Instruction and 3)Law. Without DIRECTION, I am lost. Without INSTRUCTION, I am uneducated. Without LAW, I am Lawless.

When I was in mainstream traditional christianity church, and taught that all of the law of Torah is nailed to the cross, I lived a life of Lawlessness. After all, wasn't obedience the same as LEGALISM? As a child of God through the grace of Jesus Christ, I am no longer living a life of illegitimacy. Do I believe that the Sabbath should be a day of rest? I do and I also practice this eternal commandment. God said He does not change. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. All of the Bible is His Truths. To pick and choose was just chaos before. Does this make sense? I am on a path in this life. God tells us that His Word (not just NT) is a lamp for my foot and light on my path. Need I emphasize the importance of ALL of the Word anymore? I think a child "gets it". It really doesn't have to be so hard...except that the Word does say that Satan deceives the whole world...and that means me too. I have not arrived to perfection in my understanding....but I keep the Word before me....testing everything to see if it lines us with all of the Bible. I am open to His Truths but no longer open to half truths, which are just lies anyway.

Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Gal 6:1 Brothers, suppose someone is caught doing something wrong. You who have the Spirit should set him right, but in a spirit of humility, keeping an eye on yourselves so that you won't be tempted too.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens — in this way you will be fulfilling the Torah's true meaning, which the Messiah upholds.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is really nothing, he is fooling himself.
Gal 6:4 So let each of you scrutinize his own actions. Then if you do find something to boast about, at least the boasting will be based on what you have actually done and not merely on a judgment that you are better than someone else;
Gal 6:5 for each person will carry his own load.
Gal 6:6 But whoever is being instructed in the Word should share all the good things he has with his instructor.
Gal 6:7 Don't delude yourselves: no one makes a fool of God! A person reaps what he sows.
Gal 6:8 Those who keep sowing in the field of their old nature, in order to meet its demands, will eventually reap ruin; but those who keep sowing in the field of the Spirit will reap from the Spirit everlasting life.
Gal 6:9 So let us not grow weary of doing what is good; for if we don't give up, we will in due time reap the harvest.
Gal 6:10 Therefore, as the opportunity arises, let us do what is good to everyone, and especially to the family of those who are trustingly faithful.
Gal 6:11 Look at the large letters I use as I close in my own handwriting.
Gal 6:12 It is those who want to look good outwardly who are trying to get you to be circumcised. The only reason they are doing it is to escape persecution for preaching about the Messiah's execution-stake.
Gal 6:13 For even those who are getting circumcised don't observe the Torah. On the contrary, they want you to get circumcised so that they can boast of having gained your adherence.
Gal 6:14 But as for me, Heaven forbid that I should boast about anything except the execution-stake of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah! Through him, as far as I am concerned, the world has been put to death on the stake; and through him, as far as the world is concerned, I have been put to death on the stake.
Gal 6:15 For neither being circumcised nor being uncircumcised matters; what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 And as many as order their lives by this rule, shalom upon them and mercy, and upon the Isra'el of God!
Gal 6:17 From now on, I don't want anyone to give me any more tsuris, because I have scars on my body to prove that I belong to Yeshua!
Gal 6:18 The grace of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#14
crossnote: Yes there is a richness as long as you don't place Moses over Yeshua or even Paul; and see Abraham not Moses as the Father of our faith. I would advise you study carefully the Book of Hebrews.
Hebrews was written to be understood by people who knew the OT thoroughly, but did not know any of the NT. They were Jews. If you read it as a person who knows the NT well, but is not thoroughly familiar with the OT, you get a very different view of what it says. It is supposed to show how to grow in Christ after you know the Father well. If you don't know the Father and the principles of God well, you don't see it as how to grow, how things were changed in Christ, but as reinforcement of what you know without understanding who you are as God's creation. You miss a lot of what Hebrew teaches.

I didn't thoroughly study OT until I was 80, when I spent several years deep in that study, with the NT as part of the OT study for the OT is very much about Christ as He fulfilled. I also studied the two together as one explaining the other with complete agreement between the two. There were times I had to spend weeks on one verse, like that Christ made some things obsolete. It took real digging to find out just exactly what was and wasn't made obsolete.

So Crossnote, I would advise you to study Hebrews again, but in depth this time.
 
J

jody50

Guest
#15
With all due respect for your search for truth you must consider context, context, context. With your interpretations you must throw out several passages in the New Testament and the almost the entire book of Hebrews. The Old Testament was a shadow of the things to come and the sacrifices pointed to the TRUE sacrifice once and for all. Go back to the old law and you are bound by all of it. You cannot live under two covenants simultaneously. God prophesied through Jeremiah that he would bring in a new covenant (Jer. 31:31-34) The inspired writings of the Holy Spirit sates very clearly in Hebrews 8:8-13, that this prophecy was fulfilled in Christ. Please not verse 13, "In speaking of a NEW Covenant, he makes the FIRST one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to banish away." Back to 8:7, "For if the FIRST covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the SECOND." Heb. 7:12, "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Christ was from the tribe of Judah and could never be a priest or Highpriest under the old covenant. So the first covenant must be taken away in order for Christ to be our highpriest.
May I ask: Which covenant are you under today? Remember the First covenant was between God and physical Israel.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#16
Just because Christ fulfilled the law and we are no longer under the law but under grace does not mean we are antinomian, for the law of God is now written on our hearts through the new birth.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(Heb 8:10-13)


For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(Tit 2:11-12)
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
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#17
Well WomanLovesTX, I was just wondering how much of the Old Testament you have read in Hebrew, if you believe in this Hebrew Roots movement so much?

I've just spent a year reading Hebrew, and nowhere do I find that we should be looking to anyone but Jesus Christ.

My thought is to learn Hebrew, instead of just copying and pasting articles, and read what it really says. Then decide if we need to go back and obey the law of the Torah, rather than the law of Jesus Christ.
From the little I have learned of Hebrew, what a wonderful thing to be able to read scripture in that language. Just the little I've learned of how it expresses spiritual understanding with physical doing fascinates me.

I don't understand how you can say law of Torah, rather than law of Christ. Both are of love. I understand some people felt the doing of law was all that was required especially in OT times, but I never found a scripture that said this, but always the opposite. Christ said to obey in spirit and truth, as was a set God principle both old and new. The Hebrew language spoke more of the doing, so did the OT, just as the NT speaks more of the heart, but both say the doing and the heart are both important.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#18
Hebrews was written to be understood by people who knew the OT thoroughly, but did not know any of the NT. They were Jews. If you read it as a person who knows the NT well, but is not thoroughly familiar with the OT, you get a very different view of what it says. It is supposed to show how to grow in Christ after you know the Father well. If you don't know the Father and the principles of God well, you don't see it as how to grow, how things were changed in Christ, but as reinforcement of what you know without understanding who you are as God's creation. You miss a lot of what Hebrew teaches.
Nope, Hebrews was written to the Jewish believers who, in the face of persecution and pressure by the Judaizers were tempted to return to Judaism and away from Jesus. Paul showed them very clearly in Yeshua there is a better Sacrifice, better Promises, a better Priesthood, a better Temple, a better salvation.

I didn't thoroughly study OT until I was 80, when I spent several years deep in that study, with the NT as part of the OT study for the OT is very much about Christ as He fulfilled. I also studied the two together as one explaining the other with complete agreement between the two. There were times I had to spend weeks on one verse, like that Christ made some things obsolete. It took real digging to find out just exactly what was and wasn't made obsolete.

So Crossnote, I would advise you to study Hebrews again, but in depth this time.
Gee thanks for the advise, I will...and again and again and again and...

Tell me plainly ask you, is the Levitical Priesthood obsolete?

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
(Heb 7:11-12)

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(Heb 8:1-7)
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#19
Nope, Hebrews was written to the Jewish believers who, in the face of persecution and pressure by the Judaizers were tempted to return to Judaism and away from Jesus. Paul showed them very clearly in Yeshua there is a better Sacrifice, better Promises, a better Priesthood, a better Temple, a better salvation.



Gee thanks for the advise, I will...and again and again and again and...

Tell me plainly ask you, is the Levitical Priesthood obsolete?

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
(Heb 7:11-12)

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(Heb 8:1-7)
First we need to know all about the high priest of the OT. Remember the theme of Hebrews is how we can grow in Christ. When we know all about the high priest and we know that now Christ is our high priest, we can better understand all Christ is for us. He is a better high priest than the one before. When we know the functions of a high priest we can better understand the ways Christ is better and what His functions are.

It would be the same thing if we hired someone to be a teacher for our kids, and then replaced that teacher with someone many times better for a new teacher. We wouldn't say we obsoleted the old teacher, altho in a way we did. Because the new teacher is so much better, we don't go on about how terrible the old one was. The old one wasn't perfect or as good an the new one.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#20
It's more than a changed teacher...the principal and school has changed.

When a change in the priesthood takes place, there must also be a change in the Law.
(Heb 7:12)

bye bye Feasts, Sabbaths, Temple, Holy Days.

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
(Heb 7:19)

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:14)

But go ahead resort back to the 'Old' if you think that is where LIFE is found.