Is there a difference between the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost?

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Endoscopy

Endoscopy

Senior Member
#121
Oct 13, 2017
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#121
KJV1611 said:
Agree. Best to leave translating Gods word to God. He knows exactly the right words to use.
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There are good modern translations that are good. I use NIV, ESV, and AMPC. Unfortunately the KJV is 400 years old and English has changed. Kill then meant deliberate murder. Today the "Thou shalt not kill" is "You shall not murder" in modern translations. With AMPC it gives in parentheses the multiple definitions of the original language words. Here is John 3:16 AMPC. Notice the extra meanings of "believe in". More than a simple belief. The image "clings to" gives me is a toddler grabbing hold of daddy's leg while he slowly walks. I remember my kids doing that to me.

John 3 AMPC
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#122
Jul 8, 2018
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#122
reneweddaybyday said:
The words "within him" are translated from one Hebrew word בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw].

The Hebrew word בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw] relates to Moses and the people (those which were brought up out of the sea) in Isaiah 63:11 — I believe the word means in the midst, among (within as in "many", not within as in "one").

I have looked at the verse in other versions of the Bible. KJV uses the the words "within him" in translating the Hebrew to English. However, most other versions translate בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw] as "within them":


NIV
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people-- where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them

NLT
Then they remembered those days of old when Moses led his people out of Egypt. They cried out, "Where is the one who brought Israel through the sea, with Moses as their shepherd? Where is the one who sent his Holy Spirit to be among his people

ESV
Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit

NASB
Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses. Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them

ISV
Then they remembered the days of old, of Moses his servant. Where is the one who brought up out of the sea the shepherds of his flock? Where is the one who put his Holy Spirit among them


These verses were brought to my mind. Hope/pray they shed some light:

Numbers 11:

16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.

17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.


...


24 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.

25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.



We also see in 1 Kings 19:15-16 And the LORD said unto him [Elijah], Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria: And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.


In OT, priests, kings and prophets were anointed by another man.

That is not how we receive Holy Spirit in our day and time. From Day of Pentecost on, we are born again and have Holy Spirit indwelling. Not just upon us and not from one person to another. But within us and sent from Father (according to John 14:26, 15:26).

In 1 John 2:27 we are told But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you

In our day and time, the anointing is from Him (God) and the Holy Spirit is an indwelling, an abiding (remaining within). :cool:
Click to expand...
If the "within" in Isaiah 63:11 was to mean "among", then the scripture would have said "Where is he that put his Holy Spirit among (THEM)" instead of "within (HIM)".
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#123
Jul 8, 2018
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#123
Endoscopy said:
There are good modern translations that are good. I use NIV, ESV, and AMPC. Unfortunately the KJV is 400 years old and English has changed. Kill then meant deliberate murder. Today the "Thou shalt not kill" is "You shall not murder" in modern translations. With AMPC it gives in parentheses the multiple definitions of the original language words. Here is John 3:16 AMPC. Notice the extra meanings of "believe in". More than a simple belief. The image "clings to" gives me is a toddler grabbing hold of daddy's leg while he slowly walks. I remember my kids doing that to me.

John 3 AMPC
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life
Click to expand...
Most people who want to believe in the salvation by works theory do choose other versions of the bible other than the KJV, because the other versions have changed the wording to support man's involvement in his eternal salvation.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#124
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#124
Endoscopy said:
There are good modern translations that are good. I use NIV, ESV, and AMPC. Unfortunately the KJV is 400 years old and English has changed. Kill then meant deliberate murder. Today the "Thou shalt not kill" is "You shall not murder" in modern translations. With AMPC it gives in parentheses the multiple definitions of the original language words. Here is John 3:16 AMPC. Notice the extra meanings of "believe in". More than a simple belief. The image "clings to" gives me is a toddler grabbing hold of daddy's leg while he slowly walks. I remember my kids doing that to me.

John 3 AMPC
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life
Click to expand...
As far as I can tell kill has always meant taking a life. I don't see where it ever meant to murder.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#125
Dec 28, 2016
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#125
ForestGreenCook said:
Most people who want to believe in the salvation by works theory do choose other versions of the bible other than the KJV, because the other versions have changed the wording to support man's involvement in his eternal salvation.
Click to expand...
Please document the "most people" comment and some examples of texts that do this.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#126
Jul 8, 2018
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#126
Endoscopy said:
There are good modern translations that are good. I use NIV, ESV, and AMPC. Unfortunately the KJV is 400 years old and English has changed. Kill then meant deliberate murder. Today the "Thou shalt not kill" is "You shall not murder" in modern translations. With AMPC it gives in parentheses the multiple definitions of the original language words. Here is John 3:16 AMPC. Notice the extra meanings of "believe in". More than a simple belief. The image "clings to" gives me is a toddler grabbing hold of daddy's leg while he slowly walks. I remember my kids doing that to me.

John 3 AMPC
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life
Click to expand...
"Believeth" in the KJV is restricted to those who (present tense) believe, where "believes in" is future tense, which makes "believing in" a work of man for his eternal destination.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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#127
Jul 8, 2018
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#127
preacher4truth said:
Please document the "most people" comment and some examples of texts that do this.
Click to expand...
Salvation, saved, save, Greek meaning is "a deliverance". Most of the salvation scriptures have reference to a deliverance we receive here in time, such as, in Acts 8:22, Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. When God forgives a person, after repentance, that person is delivered (here in time) of the results of that particular sin. Acts 8:22 has a reference to James 5:19-20, Brethren (a child of God), if any of you (brethren) do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which hath converted a sinner from the error of his way, shall "save" (deliver) a soul from "death" (a seperation from a good standing with God), and shall hide a multitude of sins. Also: 1 Pet 3:21, The like figure whereunto even baptism doeth also now "save" (deliver) us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God). by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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#128
Dec 28, 2016
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#128
So you're a Primitive Baptist and teach time salvation?
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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#129
Jul 8, 2018
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#129
preacher4truth said:
Please document the "most people" comment and some examples of texts that do this.
Click to expand...
Any of the scriptures that use the words repent, confess, accept, believe etc. are referring to the child of God, and when they respond by these actions, there is a deliverance (salvation) here in time. The inspired scriptures were not written to those who are not his children, who cannot discern spiritual things, but are written to his regenerated children, telling them, even though I have given you a freedom to choose how you want live your lives here on earth, choose my commandments that you may be saved (delivered) and live a fruitful and happy life here on earth.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#132
Mar 23, 2016
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#132
ForestGreenCook said:
If the "within" in Isaiah 63:11 was to mean "among", then the scripture would have said "Where is he that put his Holy Spirit among (THEM)" instead of "within (HIM)".
Click to expand...
Scripture does interpret the Hebrew word בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw] as "among them":

NIV
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people-- where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them


ISV
Then they remembered the days of old, of Moses his servant. Where is the one who brought up out of the sea the shepherds of his flock? Where is the one who put his Holy Spirit among them


NET
His people remembered the ancient times. Where is the one who brought them up out of the sea, along with the shepherd of his flock? Where is the one who placed his holy Spirit among them



And the interpreters of these versions translated the Hebrew word בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw] as "in the midst of them":

ESV
Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit


ASV
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people,'saying , Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit in the midst of them


ERV
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy spirit in the midst of them



You choose to hold to the KJV. Does that mean that other versions are completely wrong and without veracity when there is inconsistency with the KJV?

Rather than throwing out the interpretations of other translators, why not take a look at the why and the wherefore. Why did the translators interpret the Hebrew word בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw] as "among them"? Why did the translators interpret the Hebrew word בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw] as "in the midst of them"?



 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#133
Mar 23, 2016
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#133
ForestGreenCook said:
Most people who want to believe in the salvation by works theory do choose other versions of the bible other than the KJV, because the other versions have changed the wording to support man's involvement in his eternal salvation.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#135
Dec 28, 2016
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#135
ForestGreenCook said:
Any of the scriptures that use the words repent, confess, accept, believe etc. are referring to the child of God, and when they respond by these actions, there is a deliverance (salvation) here in time. The inspired scriptures were not written to those who are not his children, who cannot discern spiritual things, but are written to his regenerated children, telling them, even though I have given you a freedom to choose how you want live your lives here on earth, choose my commandments that you may be saved (delivered) and live a fruitful and happy life here on earth.
Click to expand...
I don't buy the time salvation teaching, as the above Biblical instances are not limited to this. Yes, the Scriptures are written to the converted, i.e. the NT epistles.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#136
Dec 28, 2016
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#136
ForestGreenCook said:
Salvation, saved, save, Greek meaning is "a deliverance". Most of the salvation scriptures have reference to a deliverance we receive here in time, such as, in Acts 8:22, Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. When God forgives a person, after repentance, that person is delivered (here in time) of the results of that particular sin. Acts 8:22 has a reference to James 5:19-20, Brethren (a child of God), if any of you (brethren) do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which hath converted a sinner from the error of his way, shall "save" (deliver) a soul from "death" (a seperation from a good standing with God), and shall hide a multitude of sins. Also: 1 Pet 3:21, The like figure whereunto even baptism doeth also now "save" (deliver) us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God). by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
I believe the instance of Simon Magus (Simon the Sorcerer) is that he was not truly repentant, was thus still unregenerate, and needed to repent. Acts 8:23 "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” " alludes to his being in an unregenerate state. This has nothing to do, imo, and looking at the text and language used, with any "time salvation."
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#137
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#137
ForestGreenCook said:
Most people who want to believe in the salvation by works theory do choose other versions of the bible other than the KJV, because the other versions have changed the wording to support man's involvement in his eternal salvation.
Click to expand...
With all due respect you haven't proven your assertion above.

Instead, and again with respect, you went into teaching "time salvation." It doesn't prove the above, that others use newer versions because they want to believe in salvation by works.

Your responses to provide evidence have fallen short bro.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#138
#138
Endoscopy said:
There are good modern translations that are good. I use NIV, ESV, and AMPC. Unfortunately the KJV is 400 years old and English has changed. Kill then meant deliberate murder. Today the "Thou shalt not kill" is "You shall not murder" in modern translations. With AMPC it gives in parentheses the multiple definitions of the original language words. Here is John 3:16 AMPC. Notice the extra meanings of "believe in". More than a simple belief. The image "clings to" gives me is a toddler grabbing hold of daddy's leg while he slowly walks. I remember my kids doing that to me.

John 3 AMPC
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life
Click to expand...
But they added dearly prized, no other bible says that, or is that a misquote insert?
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#139
Dec 28, 2016
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#139
As to the OP, in my honest opinion there is no difference between using "Ghost" or "Spirit" in relation to the 3rd Person of Triune God other than exercising an inconsistent word choice in each of the texts.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#140
Nov 23, 2013
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#140
reneweddaybyday said:
Scripture does interpret the Hebrew word בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw] as "among them":

NIV
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people-- where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them


ISV
Then they remembered the days of old, of Moses his servant. Where is the one who brought up out of the sea the shepherds of his flock? Where is the one who put his Holy Spirit among them


NET
His people remembered the ancient times. Where is the one who brought them up out of the sea, along with the shepherd of his flock? Where is the one who placed his holy Spirit among them



And the interpreters of these versions translated the Hebrew word בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw] as "in the midst of them":

ESV
Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit


ASV
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people,'saying , Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit in the midst of them


ERV
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy spirit in the midst of them



You choose to hold to the KJV. Does that mean that other versions are completely wrong and without veracity when there is inconsistency with the KJV?

Rather than throwing out the interpretations of other translators, why not take a look at the why and the wherefore. Why did the translators interpret the Hebrew word בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw] as "among them"? Why did the translators interpret the Hebrew word בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ [bə·qir·bōw] as "in the midst of them"?
Click to expand...
Question, who is asking the questions in this verse?

Isaiah 63:11-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses.
Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the [a]shepherds of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of[b]them,
 
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