Hi kselby how are you?
You said ...my head is spinning right now....and im not a very good typer....so this may take me a while...but the definition of the trinity according to the athanasian creed is that there are three divine persons(the father the son and the holy ghost)each is said to be eternal, each said to be almighty,non greater or less than the other,each said to be god ,and yet together being but one god. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three persons are not seperate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists.Thus some tritarians emphasize their belief that jesus christ is god or that jesus and the holy ghost are jehovah.how anyone can understand this i do not know???but t does seem that there are alot of varied ideas of what the trinity is
during the time around 325 ad when the overall debate about the nature of Jesus christ was being played out at the first council of Nicea the Latin word persona from which we get the English word person was used to describe the difference between the father, son, and Holy spirit, this Latin word In the early church the Greek word ‘prosopone’ was translated into the Latin word ‘persona. Things frequently manage to get lost in translation and here we are talking about two translations: first from the Greek to the Latin and then the Latin to the English.
The word, ‘prosopone,’ was used by the early church writers and thinkers to describe their threefold experience of God. They borrowed that word from the Greek theatre, the stage. Prosopone was the mask that ancient Greek actors used to symbolize the role they were presenting. Often in one act, one actor might have more than one mask, or roles or prosopone. For example the word was used for one man who might be a labourer and a father and a musician and an artist and so on, but the man is one and the same in nature and essence.
In translating ‘prosopone’ to Latin, the best that could be done was to use the word ‘persona’ which also conveys in the Latin the idea of one’s roles. By the time the Latin ‘persona’ became ‘person’ in English, all of this was lost. Since person in English use usualy conveys separate individuality
You said...i guess my way of dismissing this idea of the trinity is with scriptures(and a little logic)lets look at a few scriptures that that show how jesus saw himself sa a seperate individual from jehovah...read matt 26:39"going a little farther he (jesus)fell on his face and prayed,'my father if it be possible'let this cup pass from me;nevertheless, not as i will but as thou wilt'"If the father and son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless.Jesus would have been praying to himself,and his will would of necessity have been the fathers will.
God dose not pray to himself but Jesus (man) 6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross! (phil 2:6-8) I believe God intended this atonement (jesus) to be limited just like man is, to depend on rely on and pray to God, I believe if the atonement is not like man in this way it is not an atonement
Jesus is completely human, but He also has a divine nature.
Jesus is GOD
Jesus is MAN
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:2)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15)
He knew all things (John 21:17)
He gives eternal life (John 20:28)
The fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)
He worshiped the Father (John 17)
He prayed to the Father (John 17:1)
He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
He was called Son of Man (John 19:35-37)
He was tempted (Matt. 4:1)
He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52)
He died (Rom. 5:8)
He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)
You said, the other scripture is col1:15,16...he is the image of the invisible god,the first born of all creation,for in him all things were created,in heaven and on earth".if jesus is eternal ...how is it that he is said to have been created?
It doesn’t say in this scripture that he is created, it says he is firstborn. The word that is used in this verse as Firstborn (Prototokos) in the Scriptures is used in various ways. It is used of those who were born first, those who were given preeminance, those given a higher rank. so Lets be consistent in our view and see where else it is used and how it is applied.
*Luke 2:7--And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. This verse is speaking of Jesus being Mary's firstborn child.
*Exodus13:2--Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.
*Genesis 41:51--And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.
These verses are pretty simple to understand and we can see they are speaking of literally being born first to a person or animal.
Now the following verses for firstborn have a different meaning in the bible.
*In Genesis 41:51 Manasseh is called “firstborn” and Ephraim is called “second.” But in Jeremiah 31:9, Ephraim is called “firstborn” because it is was Ephraim who now had the preeminence or supremacy, and not Manasseh.
*Also Exodus 4:22: Israel is called “firstborn.” Firstborn cannot mean first-created, for there were many nations before Israel--but Israel had preeminence as God's chosen nation.
*In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born higher than the kings of the earth. David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence, position or rank.
*in Gen 41:51-52 we see that the first born of Joseph was Manasseh and his second born was Ephraim but in Jer 31:9 we see God say “for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn
We can see that the bible uses (Prototokos) firstborn in different ways.
You said..... why is it so hard to see that jesus...was infact part of creation read prov 8:22to 36 .....1cor8:5,6"Although there are many so-called gods in heaven or on earth-as indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'-ye for us there is one god,the father,from whom are all things, and from whom we exist,and one lord.jesus christ through whom are all things and through whom we exist."This scripture presents the father as the one god of christians and as being in a class distinct from jesus christ.
Hmmmmm for us there is one god,the father,from whom are all things, and from whom we exist,and one lord.jesus christ through whom are all things and through whom we exist. I don’t see how you can say this scripture presents the father as one God and in a distinct class from Jesus Christ, it says the exact same of the father here as it dose for the son.
You said ...my head is spinning right now....and im not a very good typer....so this may take me a while...but the definition of the trinity according to the athanasian creed is that there are three divine persons(the father the son and the holy ghost)each is said to be eternal, each said to be almighty,non greater or less than the other,each said to be god ,and yet together being but one god. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three persons are not seperate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists.Thus some tritarians emphasize their belief that jesus christ is god or that jesus and the holy ghost are jehovah.how anyone can understand this i do not know???but t does seem that there are alot of varied ideas of what the trinity is
during the time around 325 ad when the overall debate about the nature of Jesus christ was being played out at the first council of Nicea the Latin word persona from which we get the English word person was used to describe the difference between the father, son, and Holy spirit, this Latin word In the early church the Greek word ‘prosopone’ was translated into the Latin word ‘persona. Things frequently manage to get lost in translation and here we are talking about two translations: first from the Greek to the Latin and then the Latin to the English.
The word, ‘prosopone,’ was used by the early church writers and thinkers to describe their threefold experience of God. They borrowed that word from the Greek theatre, the stage. Prosopone was the mask that ancient Greek actors used to symbolize the role they were presenting. Often in one act, one actor might have more than one mask, or roles or prosopone. For example the word was used for one man who might be a labourer and a father and a musician and an artist and so on, but the man is one and the same in nature and essence.
In translating ‘prosopone’ to Latin, the best that could be done was to use the word ‘persona’ which also conveys in the Latin the idea of one’s roles. By the time the Latin ‘persona’ became ‘person’ in English, all of this was lost. Since person in English use usualy conveys separate individuality
You said...i guess my way of dismissing this idea of the trinity is with scriptures(and a little logic)lets look at a few scriptures that that show how jesus saw himself sa a seperate individual from jehovah...read matt 26:39"going a little farther he (jesus)fell on his face and prayed,'my father if it be possible'let this cup pass from me;nevertheless, not as i will but as thou wilt'"If the father and son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless.Jesus would have been praying to himself,and his will would of necessity have been the fathers will.
God dose not pray to himself but Jesus (man) 6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross! (phil 2:6-8) I believe God intended this atonement (jesus) to be limited just like man is, to depend on rely on and pray to God, I believe if the atonement is not like man in this way it is not an atonement
Jesus is completely human, but He also has a divine nature.
Jesus is GOD
Jesus is MAN
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:2)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15)
He knew all things (John 21:17)
He gives eternal life (John 20:28)
The fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)
He worshiped the Father (John 17)
He prayed to the Father (John 17:1)
He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
He was called Son of Man (John 19:35-37)
He was tempted (Matt. 4:1)
He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52)
He died (Rom. 5:8)
He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)
You said, the other scripture is col1:15,16...he is the image of the invisible god,the first born of all creation,for in him all things were created,in heaven and on earth".if jesus is eternal ...how is it that he is said to have been created?
It doesn’t say in this scripture that he is created, it says he is firstborn. The word that is used in this verse as Firstborn (Prototokos) in the Scriptures is used in various ways. It is used of those who were born first, those who were given preeminance, those given a higher rank. so Lets be consistent in our view and see where else it is used and how it is applied.
*Luke 2:7--And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. This verse is speaking of Jesus being Mary's firstborn child.
*Exodus13:2--Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.
*Genesis 41:51--And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.
These verses are pretty simple to understand and we can see they are speaking of literally being born first to a person or animal.
Now the following verses for firstborn have a different meaning in the bible.
*In Genesis 41:51 Manasseh is called “firstborn” and Ephraim is called “second.” But in Jeremiah 31:9, Ephraim is called “firstborn” because it is was Ephraim who now had the preeminence or supremacy, and not Manasseh.
*Also Exodus 4:22: Israel is called “firstborn.” Firstborn cannot mean first-created, for there were many nations before Israel--but Israel had preeminence as God's chosen nation.
*In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born higher than the kings of the earth. David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence, position or rank.
*in Gen 41:51-52 we see that the first born of Joseph was Manasseh and his second born was Ephraim but in Jer 31:9 we see God say “for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn
We can see that the bible uses (Prototokos) firstborn in different ways.
You said..... why is it so hard to see that jesus...was infact part of creation read prov 8:22to 36 .....1cor8:5,6"Although there are many so-called gods in heaven or on earth-as indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'-ye for us there is one god,the father,from whom are all things, and from whom we exist,and one lord.jesus christ through whom are all things and through whom we exist."This scripture presents the father as the one god of christians and as being in a class distinct from jesus christ.
Hmmmmm for us there is one god,the father,from whom are all things, and from whom we exist,and one lord.jesus christ through whom are all things and through whom we exist. I don’t see how you can say this scripture presents the father as one God and in a distinct class from Jesus Christ, it says the exact same of the father here as it dose for the son.
