Is total depravity (radical corruption) a biblical teaching?

[MattforJesus]

The concept is this: man, in his natural state before salvation, is corrupted in all areas of his life due to the Fall. He is spiritually dead, in fact, and requires a spiritual resurrection in order to enter into a relationship with God. Therefore, in his natural state, he is totally helpless to do anything for himself in the real of spiritual life. He cannot cause himself to come to life again. Therefore, God must spiritually resurrect him to new life. This resurrection is called being "born again", or being "born from above".

It would have to be for Jesus is our Savior, and we can only have the Spirit by confessing Him to have a relationship with God.

It would have to be for if we had the power to be right with God then Jesus would not have to come to be the Savior.

But the Bible says there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh, and the Spirit and flesh are contrary to each other.

And what saves us is being perfected in love which we cannot do being in the flesh, but by the Spirit we can perfect ourselves in love.

Which out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, charity is the greatest, and faith works by love, and out of all we did on earth only love will go on forever and faith, and hope is not needed in heaven.

Also the Bible says that no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

And no person says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So it takes the intervention of God to cause a person to accept the truth for the flesh will reject it on its own.

And for anybody that says that God chooses in the beginning who will be saved, and not saved without their choice then God's kingdom is not true love, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject truth.

And many are called but few are chosen so God does the calling and choosing on earth, which not many noble, not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty are called because their heart condition is not right to be called.

Which God says that He wants all people to be saved, and Jesus lights every person that is born in this world so everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus, and the Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody can have that salvation.

So that is enough to show God gave us a choice, and love is the greatest asset a person can have, and God is love, and only love will go on forever, so why would God want robotic love where they do not have a choice but to say I love you seeing no other alternative.

And God said that He is no respecter of persons, and what makes you to differ from another, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and if you offend in the least of the law you offend in all so what criteria would God be using to choose people if we do not have a choice.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world, and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world although they were future events.

So the saints predestined to salvation means that God already had the plan to give people salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world so it is the same as if they already have that salvation in the beginning, and this salvation is to whoever wants it for God's kingdom is love, and He is not evil but allows anybody to be saved.

Which Peter said that God is no respecter of persons but all people in every nation if they do righteousness they are accepted with Him.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I believe they want to believe that God chooses without their choice so they can believe they cannot fall so they can enjoy sin and believe they are still right with God, which they do not want to let go of the flesh and that is why they are ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Today, I understand that the real issue behind the disagreement between Reformed theology and free-willer theology is essentially, the denial of total depravity (radical corruption) by free-willers.

They do not understand the radical corruption which occurred due to the Fall, and the resulting sinfulness of mankind.

Instead, they believe in "partial depravity" or "partial corruption" and deny the absolute need for biblical regeneration.

In reality, they minimize man's sinfulness.

Some have even claimed that it is the Jews who are now depraved, and the Gentiles are not. This is how they dismiss the hard texts regarding the need to receive a heart of flesh, to replace the heart of stone. In their theology, it is the Jews who have a heart of stone, and not all mankind.

I would like to suggest this Youtube sermon concerning total depravity (radical corruption).

The history of mankind alone should prove to us that mankind is radically corrupted by the Fall. But, instead, in the deceitfulness of the fallen nature, people fool themselves into thinking they really aren't that bad, and just need Jesus for the forgiveness of their little sins, rather than realizing they are under the dominion of sin and Satan.

Sometimes I wonder if people are even saved, if they don't acknowledge radical corruption. Has God showed them the radical corruption of their being, and the fact that they are in the snare of Satan from their natural birth until their rebirth?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

REFORMED DOCTRINE OF TOTAL DEPRAVITY​

ALIASES

Radical Corruption
Total Inability


DEFINITION

Because of the Fall, man is unable, of his own resources, to believe the gospel in a saving sense.

The unsaved person is spiritually dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God. His heart is deceitful and desperately corrupted. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature. Therefore, he will not – and cannot – choose good over evil. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ. It takes regeneration, by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. He must be spiritually resurrected, or raised to spiritual life, in order to respond to God. Unlike free-willers teach, faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation. It is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.

FREE-WILLER RESPONSE

The free-willer response to total depravity (radical corruption) is free will or human ability.

Although human nature was seriously affected by the Fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power either to cooperate with God’s spirit and be regenerated, as a product of this cooperation, or to resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to his salvation.


NOTE: I am using the phrase free-willer to describe the Arminian position, as well as the position of many others with similar theology. Reformed believers don’t believe man is a robot, and doesn’t make any decisions. Reformed theology teaches that man’s will is subject to his fallen nature, therefore he makes sinful choices as an overall orientation. In the case of believers, man’s will is subject to his regenerate nature, therefore he makes righteous choices as an overall orientation.

The analogy of a fish in a pond is good to understand this. A fish can swim around his pond all he wants, but he isn’t free to jump out of the pond and live on land. Humans do not have libertarian free will, like some claim, but they have creaturely free will. This concept is biblically solid, although the exact phrases are not used.

"but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe". How do you harmonize this with 1 Cor 2:14?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

"but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe". How do you harmonize this with 1 Cor 2:14?

I don't reconcile it, as I am Reformed. I am explaining the free willer view, if that quote is mine. I didn't see it in my explanation but I may have missed it.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I don't reconcile it, as I am Reformed. I am explaining the free willer view, if that quote is mine. I didn't see it in my explanation but I may have missed it.

I am sorry. Yes, you were explaining the tree willers view. My mistake.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I am sorry. Yes, you were explaining the tree willers view. My mistake.

My continual assertion is that they believe a heart of stone can generate faith and repentance, in order to receive a heart of flesh lol.

 

[notuptome]

Today, I understand that the real issue behind the disagreement between Reformed theology and free-willer theology is essentially, the denial of total depravity (radical corruption) by free-willers.

They do not understand the radical corruption which occurred due to the Fall, and the resulting sinfulness of mankind.

Instead, they believe in "partial depravity" or "partial corruption" and deny the absolute need for biblical regeneration.

In reality, they minimize man's sinfulness.

Some have even claimed that it is the Jews who are now depraved, and the Gentiles are not. This is how they dismiss the hard texts regarding the need to receive a heart of flesh, to replace the heart of stone. In their theology, it is the Jews who have a heart of stone, and not all mankind.

I would like to suggest this Youtube sermon concerning total depravity (radical corruption).

The history of mankind alone should prove to us that mankind is radically corrupted by the Fall. But, instead, in the deceitfulness of the fallen nature, people fool themselves into thinking they really aren't that bad, and just need Jesus for the forgiveness of their little sins, rather than realizing they are under the dominion of sin and Satan.

Sometimes I wonder if people are even saved, if they don't acknowledge radical corruption. Has God showed them the radical corruption of their being, and the fact that they are in the snare of Satan from their natural birth until their rebirth?

And yet Jesus said men can do good things. How does that fit into this extreme and erroneous doctrinal position?

Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

God gives good things not only to the good but to the evil as well. Unsaved people recover from sickness. Unsaved people enjoy the sunshine and benefit from the rain showers. Such are the problems with absolutism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

My continual assertion is that they believe a heart of stone can generate faith and repentance, in order to receive a heart of flesh lol.

That's because you do not believe in (1) the power of the Gospel and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit. But you do believe in magic.

 

[posthuman]

And yet Jesus said men can do good things. How does that fit into this extreme and erroneous doctrinal position?

Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

God gives good things not only to the good but to the evil as well. Unsaved people recover from sickness. Unsaved people enjoy the sunshine and benefit from the rain showers. Such are the problems with absolutism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

In the same breath He says men are evil.
That's how it fits. Being able to give good gifts doesn't preclude being evil in nature.

 

[posthuman]

That's because you do not believe in (1) the power of the Gospel and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit. But you do believe in magic.

In either case you presented, it's not by human power or will but by the will of God through the power of the gospel or the Spirit.

 

[notuptome]

In the same breath He says men are evil.
That's how it fits. Being able to give good gifts doesn't preclude being evil in nature.

Which is why total depravity does not mandate total inability to respond to the gospel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

Take this to a forum favored by the Reformed people. A little bit of poison is sufficient to kill anyone. One does not need a whole bottle of it. And you are promoting the poison of a FALSE GOSPEL. One that is accursed.

Maybe it would be more useful if you were to address the dozens of scriptures he posted in support of this position, rather than just give your opinion that it's poisonous heresy and that he should shut up and leave the forum?

 

[posthuman]

Which is why total depravity does not mandate total inability to respond to the gospel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Will we come to Him if He does not draw us? What does scripture say?

 

[posthuman]

Which is why total depravity does not mandate total inability to respond to the gospel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I don't think that follows from what has been said. What the opponent of this position said is that man responding to the gospel is because of the intervention of the Spirit. Which is the same thing that the position itself says - so it's not even a refutation but a corroboration.

If man in his natural state cannot perceive or receive the things of God then it certainly follows that we cannot respond to the either, without that God intervene and open our ears, our hearts and our understanding - how can you respond to something you can't even perceive? That you in your natural state scoff at and call utter foolishness?

 

[notuptome]

I don't think that follows from what has been said. What the opponent of this position said is that man responding to the gospel is because of the intervention of the Spirit. Which is the same thing that the position itself says - so it's not even a refutation but a corroboration.

If man in his natural state cannot perceive or receive the things of God then it certainly follows that we cannot respond to the either, without that God intervene and open our ears, our hearts and our understanding - how can you respond to something you can't even perceive? That you in your natural state scoff at and call utter foolishness?

John 1 tells us that all men are lighted when they come into this world. Lighted with an ability to recognize light and respond to it. Further God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. Either all are able to respond or none can respond.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Will we come to Him if He does not draw us? What does scripture say?

Does God draw all to the cross?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Chester]

I believe that man is born morally depraved and separated from God, but I do not believe in the doctrine of total depravity.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Maybe it would be more useful if you were to address the dozens of scriptures he posted in support of this position, rather than just give your opinion that it's poisonous heresy and that he should shut up and leave the forum?

How do you address the DISTORTION of dozens of Scripture? Calvinism is a gross distortion of the true Gospel of God, the Gospel of Grace, the Gospel of Christ. Even the proclamation of the angels at the birth of Christ refutes Calvinism. Did you ever give that serious thought?

LUKE 2
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you Good Tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

The words underlined in verses 10 and 14 REFUTE (1) Unconditional Election, (2) Limited Atonement, and (3) Irresistible Grace. All people means all people regardless of nationality, race, creed, color, or any other factor. That's is the Good News (the Gospel) of the grace of God -- "peace and goodwill toward men" -- which God wants all humanity to hear. Not Calvinistic nonsense.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

How do you address the DISTORTION of dozens of Scripture? Calvinism is a gross distortion of the true Gospel of God, the Gospel of Grace, the Gospel of Christ. Even the proclamation of the angels at the birth of Christ refutes Calvinism. Did you ever give that serious thought?

LUKE 2
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you Good Tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

The words underlined in verses 10 and 14 REFUTE (1) Unconditional Election, (2) Limited Atonement, and (3) Irresistible Grace. All people means all people regardless of nationality, race, creed, color, or any other factor. That's is the Good News (the Gospel) of the grace of God -- "peace and goodwill toward men" -- which God wants all humanity to hear. Not Calvinistic nonsense.

13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”[Luke 2 NASB]

14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and peace on earth to people he favors!”[CSB]

14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!”[ESV]

“Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men in whom he is well pleased.” ASV

“Glory to God in heaven, and on earth peace among those whom he favors.” CEB

“Glory to God in the highest heaven, and peace on earth among those whom he has favored!” Mounce

Dr. Bill Mounce is a very respected Greek professor, btw.






The KJV translators got that verse wrong.

 

[Flint321]

These truths of Calvinism are nothing more than the fullness of the biblical faith, we must help aid our brothers and sisters in Christ
that are Arminians to come over to these glorious truths, some will come over very quickly because they are just ignorant immature christians who have been poorly taught the word of God and are ready to embrace the fullness of the faith, others are more mature in there Arminianism (false doctrine, indeed a distorted faith) and it just takes time.