"It is finished"

[Sans]

THE FIRST "IT IS FINISHED"

I believe scripture teaches that when Jesus said, "It is Finished" on the Cross... He was confirming that the penalty for sin had been accomplished.
The shedding of His blood once for all was done, reconciling mankind to God by taking away the sin that separated us from Him.

Don't misunderstand... That reconciliation is not salvation for all mankind, but the removal of the disease(sin)
Which is the prerequisite to RECEIVING ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS which is salvation.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US. 9 Much more then, BEING NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we SHALL BE saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES, WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, much more, being reconciled, WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE.

This verse tells us that the death of Jesus reconciled us to God... but it is the LIFE of Jesus that we receive when we believe that saves us.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF IN JESUS CHRIST, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, THAT GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES(SINS) UNTO THEM; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 NOW WE ARE AMBASSADORS FOR CHRIST, AS THOUGH GOD DID BESEECH YOU BY US, WE PRAY YOU IN CHRIST STEAD...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ BE YE RECONCILED TO GOD.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (Believe and so be saved)

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Salvation is Eternal Life in Christ Jesus.

In Christ is redemption, the forgiveness of sin. (A Package Deal, Col 1:14)

Notice there are 2 elements mentioned... Redemption(salvation) and the forgiveness of sin.(reconciliation)

Also note that "the forgiveness of sin" is past tense.

Without the complete irradiation of the penalty for sin, which is death... There could be no Eternal Life.
If sin still held the power to kill... Eternal life would NOT be impossible.

Everyone you witness too are cleansed corpses... the sin that killed them has been removed, but they remain dead spiritually.
We bring that Good News as Ambassadors of Reconciliation to them... that their sins have all been wiped out of the way...
And Salvation is theirs for believing in the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST JESUS ON THE CROSS.
In that moment of believing the truth of the Gospel, God imputes ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS... Sin having been taken out of the way and never able to bring again to death... Those who are IN CHRIST JESUS. Amen

 

[RevelationMan]

REVELATION 21:6: ALMOST ALL TRANSLATIONS SAY "IT IS DONE"
King James Bible
And he said unto me, It is done*. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

*Strong's Concordance (1096)
ginomai: to come into being, to happen, to become
Original Word: γίνομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ginomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ghin'-om-ahee)
Definition: to come into being, to happen, to become
Usage: I come into being, am born, become, come about, happen.

M. Vincent, "1096 (gínomai) means to come into being/manifestation implying motion, movement, or growth" (at 2 Pet 1:4). Thus it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space).
**********************************************************************************
JOHN 19:30: IT IS FINISHED = THE FINISHED REDEMPTIVE WORK OF CHRIST
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished*!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

*Strong's Concordance (5055)
teleó: to bring to an end, complete, fulfill
Original Word: τελέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-eh'-o)
Definition: to bring to an end, complete, fulfill
Usage: (a) I end, finish, (b) I fulfill, accomplish, (c) I pay.

As you can see, two different Greek words were used with two different meanings.

so maybe "it is done" in Revelation means "it has happened"...I created the new heaven and earth and I will be your God and you will be my son.

I can see your point about "it is done" but why is the First and the Last not present here. Why is it only the Alpha and the Omega and the Beginning and the End (2 instead of 3).

 

[Sans]

THE SECOND "IT IS FINISHED"

First... My Bible which is the KJV says, "It is done"... and does not use the same words translated "It is finished" that Jesus spoke from the cross. The translation "It is finished" is from the greek word τετέλεσται (tetelestai)... It means "paid in full" and was written on a condemned man's scroll by the Romans when he had finished serving his time in prison for a crime.

In Revelation we have simple words, "It is done" Referring to God's spoken words about creating all things new is translated from the greek word ginomai: to come into being or to have happened.

The Alpha and the Omega, The Beginning and the End, The First and the Last... Are attributes of God. Not persons of God.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God(singular) and He is All of the Above.

 

[RevelationMan]

THE SECOND "IT IS FINISHED"

First... My Bible which is the KJV says, "It is done"... and does not use the same words translated "It is finished" that Jesus spoke from the cross. The translation "It is finished" is from the greek word τετέλεσται (tetelestai)... It means "paid in full" and was written on a condemned man's scroll by the Romans when he had finished serving his time in prison for a crime.

In Revelation we have simple words, "It is done" Referring to God's spoken words about creating all things new is translated from the greek word ginomai: to come into being or to have happened.

The Alpha and the Omega, The Beginning and the End, The First and the Last... Are attributes of God. Not persons of God.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God(singular) and He is All of the Above.

It seems to me that these attributes of God are distinct enough both in description and in the way that they are worded to describe the 3 different beings of the Lord God.

 

[Sans]

It seems to me that these attributes of God are distinct enough both in description and in the way that they are worded to describe the 3 different beings of the Lord God.

They are attributes of Creation... God is eternal as is the Son as is the Spirit right?.... Eternity has not beginning and no end.

So the attributes we are reading in Revelation 21 and elsewhere are having to do with the Creation of the heavenly hosts, the universe that we exist in, and every living thing on the face of the earth including mankind.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I can see your point about "it is done" but why is the First and the Last not present here. Why is it only the Alpha and the Omega and the Beginning and the End (2 instead of 3).

Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, Omega is the last. So I expect that suffices. God and Christ are the beginning and the end of everything (Rev 1:8,11,17).

 

[DorothyMae]

Ok as I said you could have given me the benefit of the doubt Yes I did say I could be wrong. And yes I will apologize.

I will endeavor to give you the benefit of any doubt I could have in the future.

I do not want to misunderstand you so please read your posting below

"I can tell you what all Christians know but probably never consider. "

from the first part of this, am I to see it as you saying, You can tell Me what all Christians know, or are you forgetting to place " 't " for it to be Can't know? please clarify.

OK, I reread my post and I dp make a lot of mistakes as I am often on my phone which decides to put in different words and to make it worse, I tend to leave out words so with that combo, my posts can be pretty terrible on a communication level. But this one was correct.

The statment after the first line was the information I was presenting which every Christian does know if they would stop to think about it a bit. Jesus lost all possibilty of living a full and deeply satisfying life with a family and friends when he layed it down. Now we say the words "he died for us" very easily and without much thought. But if our friend or spouse or parent or child would purposely lay down their life to save ours at a point in time where we saw it happening, we could not tell anyone else without weeping, I am pretty sure. But the realization of that loss for him is not something we are aware of in our hearts although in our heads we would all acknowledge it is true. Do you see what I mean? There is more but this is the obvous one.

Thank you very much for giving me the benefit of the doubt. My opinion of your character has just been raised several notches and I was mistaken in my early jumping to conclusions. You are a person of honor, I see.

NOW, your understand below which I have a post you said that :

"Jesus gave up his life on the cross he lost the chance to live a rich and full life as a man with a wife and children and all the blessings many of us know."

That is a worldly humanistic application of what Jesus supposedly gave up on the Cross. I will tell you what we do know Jesus gave up Taking on the likeness of sinful man. The Body HE left Heaven to become. That Body is now glorified and is eternal as the Everlasting Testament The Lord Jesus Christ defeated death, hell, and the Grave.

Jesus has a Bride, us. Jesus has Children us, Jesus has prepared a place for HIS Bride to be with HIM forever.

CS1, dear fellow believer in Jesus, I would ask you to consider what the Godhead lost by Jesus coming at the incarnation and crucifixion without inserting what you and I gained. If someone you deeply loved literally layed down their very much enjoyed life here for you, would you really comfort yourself and avoid feeling what they gave up by telling yourself that they are now in heaven, have everlasting life, have a glorified body or will, and death and the grave cannot hold them? When you meet Jesus and see the nail scars on him, will you respond with a "well, you have a now glorified and eternal body, a bride (you), and children (you) and you will be with me (you) forever so you lost nothing at the crucifixion?" Is that what you will tell him face to face? Just think about it.

If you are wondering what my purpose is, it is not to win an argument. I have a deep passion for God Himself, not what I get out of him and think it just that some of his children think about what he gave up as well as what they gained. Being aware of what he gave up and lost for eternity makes me love him more and makes what I gained even more precious. I am better aware of the price He paid and that does not remove anything from what was purchased but makes it all the more precious. That is all I want to communicate. Surely you cannot complain that I am not forthcoming now.

 

[DorothyMae]

yes, I have considered the price HE has paid, I just know why HE did it and what HE has completed. No man could withstand all HE did for us. Yet HE willing endured it HE did not have to. You do not know what I think or understand.

OK, good. I did not mean to imply that I know what you think or understand. That is why we are writing.

 

[DorothyMae]

My bible says in Revelation 21:6 "It is done" and there may be a slight difference but I don't see much difference between "it is finished" and "it is done".

There is a pretty big difference in what "it" is.

 

[Sans]

There is a pretty big difference in what "it" is.

Try looking into the original greek words those 2 verses are translated from. Completely different as explained and demonstrated by posting the Greek words.

 

[Sans]

Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, Omega is the last. So I expect that suffices. God and Christ are the beginning and the end of everything (Rev 1:8,11,17).

Once again... God and Jesus Christ are Eternal having no beginning and no end... So they must be talking about the beginning and End of something else right? That would be you and me and the universe, heavens and earth that God created having to do with us.

 

[Sans]

It seems to me that these attributes of God are distinct enough both in description and in the way that they are worded to describe the 3 different beings of the Lord God.

pete repeat pete repeat pete repeat

 

[DorothyMae]

Try looking into the original greek words those 2 verses are translated from. Completely different as explained and demonstrated by posting the Greek words.

I know scholars of Greek are benefitted from this knowledge, but it has not been the scholars of Greek per se who have impressed me as having superior knowledge of what the writers intended, with all respect due.

 

[Mii]

You are wrong and ironically, I am the only who is thinking of his suffering being eternally grateful. But I do not blame you. The whole of the culture is so narcisstic that it is also in the church. Almost (if not) every thought is on us and what Jesus did for us, how God loves us....etc. No one is taught to think about someone besides themselves for a moment.

And I am doing just that and more than for a moment and it is so foreign that it cannot be imagined that I think of my benefit at all because I am thinking of Him.

You shall love the lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength. It does not say you shall love your salvation with all your heart and soul and mind and strength.

How can you interpose that no one is sad for what he had to go through and identify with his suffering in that we also suffer for belonging to him? I rarely experience the joy of salvation and it is rather odd to basically say that all christians idolize their salvation and place it above who not "what" effected that in the first place.

You can see how that would come across as a bit presumptuous right?

The whole basis of Christianity is to deny yourself pick up your cross and follow him after you have come to know who he is and accepted that. Well I can't say the "whole" but who are you to say that each believer is selfish because they are grateful that they have been saved from eternal death and put it on a pedestal and "use the Lord" as though they were doing something filthy by being grateful and having joy in his sacrifice.


Hopefully that's not what you are suggesting with your posts. I hadn't planned on responding but that struck me as baseless as you cannot fully ascertain another's salvation and how they understand each element. Work out your own salvation seems pretty relevant in this instance.

Sandi Patti had a pretty interesting perspective in the song "via dolorosa" and that song hits me deep in a way it doesn't others. Can I now say that because they aren't heartbroken and feel pain at the memory the way that I do, that they do not have it? Each person is different.


I also don't know what faith you are walking out, my life is pretty similar to Jesus in that, you are basically giving up leading a life according to your desires placing everything (or nearly as I have areas of stubborness) in faith of "what's next" Essentially he lived that out and I emulate to a point that it brings, pain, anger, loneliness, and occasionally his presence

The whole point of the faith is what is gained, which is an eternity with him. No one knows what he lost, but he gained us. He gave himself for us, do you really consider that such a loss? There are times when I do quite frankly, and it seems like a terrible trade for simple sheep...but neither you nor I can fully see that equation and it seems like folly to try. Each is given a picture. A window of understanding, use it and honor the Lord with it, but if you would be mindful that it appears as though you are putting words into people's mouth. Or fingers in this case.

A few posts is not enough to engage even a modest portion of something that is enigmatic to a lot of people. Consider that Paul understood personally a lot of what Jesus went through in his faith. The closer we draw to him the more we are going to understand that stuff...if someone hasn't encountered persecution and what goes along with it then why try to project something like that? They will or they won't.

I've had a personal heart journey in this matter that I don't care to share at present...I would for evangelism but otherwise, it's a bit too personal outside private communications, because I'm still figuring it out and I have no desire to open myself up to "analysis" from other believers until it feels like the right time to share.



You can't force a heart engagement of these issues...it is the Lord that opens your eyes to it and it simply seems like some sort of self-aggrandizement the way it comes across although it is great that you have this awareness and insight.

Note: I am not suggesting that this is your goal or even a hidden heart issue that you are unaware of...I am merely pointing out how it comes across. See what I just said? It seems to me does not make it so, but still my interaction is impacted by it. So perhaps just let this particular element rest and hit it from a fresh slate on a different thread. A person can get borderline insulting without realizing it as this is at the heart of our walk and there is a sensitivity there among other believers I think that should be respected. I see no reason to presume that these men do not have a personal understanding in this matter.

If the Lord speaks to you through any of this then awesome...I praise him for using me in such a fashion and may he be glorified regardless.

 

[DorothyMae]

How can you interpose that no one is sad for what he had to go through and identify with his suffering in that we also suffer for belonging to him? I rarely experience the joy of salvation and it is rather odd to basically say that all christians idolize their salvation and place it above who not "what" effected that in the first place.

You probably did not notice that I was posting with a person who named themselves "eternallygrateful" and was opposing my focus on what Jesus suffered. It was not meant to be a statment that I alone in the world am eternally grateful but that he who actually labelled himself eternally grateful was not being grateful between the two of us.

You can see how that would come across as a bit presumptuous right?

It was only a statment noticing the irony in the name he or she selected for themselves. Sorry if it came across as a boast about myself. That was unintentional.

The whole basis of Christianity is to deny yourself pick up your cross and follow him after you have come to know who he is and accepted that. Well I can't say the "whole" but who are you to say that each believer is selfish because they are grateful that they have been saved from eternal death and put it on a pedestal and "use the Lord" as though they were doing something filthy by being grateful and having joy in his sacrifice.

That is not my intention but let me ask you to consider the focus of the popular "worship" songs we sing, as an example of where the focus is in the church today. I am over 50 and so know the songs we used to sing. Most of them never mentioned us. Most of the songs today fail to mention us, me, my, etc. That they are popular and sung with gusto tells anyone something of the mind of the church happy to sing about themselves and call it "worship."

Hopefully that's not what you are suggesting with your posts. I hadn't planned on responding but that struck me as baseless as you cannot fully ascertain another's salvation and how they understand each element. Work out your own salvation seems pretty relevant in this instance.

I agree except for the part about how much others understand matters of the Kingdom of God, of which salvation is only a part. It is pretty easy to understand how much others understand on a forum like this because talk is all we have. When people write their thoughts others know what they think. It is pretty easy. In a room full of people engaging in small talk it is pretty hard to know.

Sandi Patti had a pretty interesting perspective in the song "via dolorosa" and that song hits me deep in a way it doesn't others. Can I now say that because they aren't heartbroken and feel pain at the memory the way that I do, that they do not have it? Each person is different.

I do not know that song and cannot say much to it except Jesus never walked that street, which I did not know when I was there. No street in Jerusalem today was there when Jesus walked them. Not a one although that doesn't have much to do with the song, I imagine.

I also don't know what faith you are walking out, my life is pretty similar to Jesus in that, you are basically giving up leading a life according to your desires placing everything (or nearly as I have areas of stubborness) in faith of "what's next" Essentially he lived that out and I emulate to a point that it brings, pain, anger, loneliness, and occasionally his presence

Now this one I have to point out. You "life is pretty similar to Jesus in that you are basically giving up..." Do you really think your life is similar to Jesus? I think the life of Jesus is a tall order and I do not think my life is similar to Jesus at all considering what He did and knew and taught. Do you want to explain this a bit further?

The whole point of the faith is what is gained, which is an eternity with him. No one knows what he lost, but he gained us. He gave himself for us, do you really consider that such a loss? There are times when I do quite frankly, and it seems like a terrible trade for simple sheep...but neither you nor I can fully see that equation and it seems like folly to try. Each is given a picture. A window of understanding, use it and honor the Lord with it, but if you would be mindful that it appears as though you are putting words into people's mouth. Or fingers in this case.

What did I say that was saying what others say that is not so? I asked the poster to think of the loss Jesus experienced instead of our gain for a bit. That seems pretty difficult for others to do. Even you cannot write of his loss without adding in what is gained, mostly for you. I mean I can tell you for sure and certain that God did not need us and is complete and content without us. That he loves and loses many of us does not mean He is therefore not fulfilled and discontent. He is not lonely. He is not missing something in HIs being because we are not there. And I do know something of what was lost and am wondering if anyone else wants to know.

A few posts is not enough to engage even a modest portion of something that is enigmatic to a lot of people. Consider that Paul understood personally a lot of what Jesus went through in his faith. The closer we draw to him the more we are going to understand that stuff...if someone hasn't encountered persecution and what goes along with it then why try to project something like that? They will or they won't.

The presecution is not a factor in this discussion.

I've had a personal heart journey in this matter that I don't care to share at present...I would for evangelism but otherwise, it's a bit too personal outside private communications, because I'm still figuring it out and I have no desire to open myself up to "analysis" from other believers until it feels like the right time to share.

I understand completely and that is my feeling as well. CS1 accuses me of not being forthcoming and that is so to some degree for the reasons you state above. I totally understand and think you are wise is so doing.

You can't force a heart engagement of these issues...it is the Lord that opens your eyes to it and it simply seems like some sort of self-aggrandizement the way it comes across although it is great that you have this awareness and insight.

I did not self-grandize nor did I search out these matters. (Is saying your life is like the life of Jesus a bit of self-grandizing, just a question.) But you are right in that I cannot force heart engagement. Sometimes the Lord opens the eyes of us through others. It is like throwing out bait and seeing if anyone bites and wants more information. So I present only a little, like Jesus who taught in parables to see if anyone wants to know more. Those who want to understand ask questions.

Note: I am not suggesting that this is your goal or even a hidden heart issue that you are unaware of...I am merely pointing out how it comes across. See what I just said? It seems to me does not make it so, but still my interaction is impacted by it. So perhaps just let this particular element rest and hit it from a fresh slate on a different thread. A person can get borderline insulting without realizing it as this is at the heart of our walk and there is a sensitivity there among other believers I think that should be respected. I see no reason to presume that these men do not have a personal understanding in this matter.

I read the words of people, and when one has read enough, one knows the understanding or lack of it in others. Jesus did communicate in words and listened to people and often asked them questions to see if they would want more, commit themselves and various other methods of ascertaining the thinking of others. It is a valid method.

If the Lord speaks to you through any of this then awesome...I praise him for using me in such a fashion and may he be glorified regardless.

You did well and it was a pleasure to interact with you. Thank you for taking the time to write such a long post.

 

[Sans]

I know scholars of Greek are benefitted from this knowledge, but it has not been the scholars of Greek per se who have impressed me as having superior knowledge of what the writers intended, with all respect due.

God preserves His Word for our study. If the words He has preserved over the millennia don't say what they mean and mean what they say... there's nothing to discuss. I don't deserve your respect... But the words written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit certainly do.

 

[Wansvic]

How do you know that in Rev 22:13 that it is Jesus speaking? I don't think it is Jesus speaking but rather the Lord God speaking because in Rev 1:8 it clarifies that the Alpha & the Omega is the Lord God. So therefore if the Lord God is the Alpha and the Omega he is also the other 2 as well as we see in Rev 22:13.

Take notice of verse 18. It states who is speaking; one who lived, was dead and now lives forevermore. It ends with the statement that He has the keys to hell and of death. We know this refers to Jesus as recorded in Hebrews 2:14.

Rev 1:7-18
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[Wansvic]

Once again... God and Jesus Christ are Eternal having no beginning and no end... So they must be talking about the beginning and End of something else right? That would be you and me and the universe, heavens and earth that God created having to do with us.

As pertaining to His humanity, Jesus did have a beginning. John 1:14

 

[DorothyMae]

God preserves His Word for our study. If the words He has preserved over the millennia don't say what they mean and mean what they say... there's nothing to discuss. I don't deserve your respect... But the words written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit certainly do.

Learning Greek is work and that deserves respect. But I’ve been acquainted with scholars of ancient Greek who were likely not Christians. They could translate the words. They just weren’t living them.

 

[CS1]

I will endeavor to give you the benefit of any doubt I could have in the future.
OK, I reread my post and I dp make a lot of mistakes as I am often on my phone which decides to put in different words and to make it worse, I tend to leave out words so with that combo, my posts can be pretty terrible on a communication level. But this one was correct.

The statment after the first line was the information I was presenting which every Christian does know if they would stop to think about it a bit. Jesus lost all possibilty of living a full and deeply satisfying life with a family and friends when he layed it down. Now we say the words "he died for us" very easily and without much thought. But if our friend or spouse or parent or child would purposely lay down their life to save ours at a point in time where we saw it happening, we could not tell anyone else without weeping, I am pretty sure. But the realization of that loss for him is not something we are aware of in our hearts although in our heads we would all acknowledge it is true. Do you see what I mean? There is more but this is the obvous one.

Thank you very much for giving me the benefit of the doubt. My opinion of your character has just been raised several notches and I was mistaken in my early jumping to conclusions. You are a person of honor, I see.


CS1, dear fellow believer in Jesus, I would ask you to consider what the Godhead lost by Jesus coming at the incarnation and crucifixion without inserting what you and I gained. If someone you deeply loved literally layed down their very much enjoyed life here for you, would you really comfort yourself and avoid feeling what they gave up by telling yourself that they are now in heaven, have everlasting life, have a glorified body or will, and death and the grave cannot hold them? When you meet Jesus and see the nail scars on him, will you respond with a "well, you have a now glorified and eternal body, a bride (you), and children (you) and you will be with me (you) forever so you lost nothing at the crucifixion?" Is that what you will tell him face to face? Just think about it.

If you are wondering what my purpose is, it is not to win an argument. I have a deep passion for God Himself, not what I get out of him and think it just that some of his children think about what he gave up as well as what they gained. Being aware of what he gave up and lost for eternity makes me love him more and makes what I gained even more precious. I am better aware of the price He paid and that does not remove anything from what was purchased but makes it all the more precious. That is all I want to communicate. Surely you cannot complain that I am not forthcoming now.

I am not questioning your relationship or love for the lord I will try to see your point. I am not trying to win a debate either.

God bless