It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

Atwood · Jun 27, 2014

NewB, Neither free will nor free choice occurs in those words; you impose your theory on scripture.

How do you know that the disciples who left were saved? Do you think Judas was saved, who had a demon? Was Judas free with a demon? How do you know that this scripture doesn't describe the disciples who left? How can men who are captive to the devil's will have free will?

And the Lord’s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth, and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

The point is to stick to the Bible, and don't make things up. Eternal security is clearly taught. Looking at this & that off topic does not disprove God's truth on the subject.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

newbirth · Jun 27, 2014

Atwood said:

are you denying those disciples "went back, and walked no more with him " of their own accord?
and these who chose not to confess him...
[h=3]John 12:41-43[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]41 [/SUP]These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

[SUP]43 [/SUP]For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.( that is faith without works)(free choice). go get your greek verb

Atwood · Jun 27, 2014

newbirth said:

Newb:

You are the one that said you had verses to prove free will. I am pointing out that you have not proved free will with your verses, unless you can prove that they were not captive to the will of satan in what they did.

"if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will."

What does that mean, "God may GIVE them repentance" -- is that free will? God gives a change of mind (repentance).

And do you have to prove that they had no external influences on their minds so that they were free? Do you have to prove that their actions were not the inevitable result of their sinful natures given the situation in which they were placed?

You have to eliminate all possibilities but free will unless you have a verse that says "free will" or the equivalent.

The idea of free will is interesting. And one might ask instead of free vs bound, how free their wills were? Or were they bound by satan's will?

But whatever you decide about "free will," it proves nothing against eternal security. You see we have the direct statements of God on that subject.

If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. So are the unsaved free unless Christ makes them free? Does one have free will without the Son making you free?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins -- free will nor not.

NewB, will you have such a Savior?

Cassian · Jun 27, 2014

Atwood said:

YOu are one very confused sola scripturist. Not that it really matters to you, but Christ freed all men for the bondage to death, sin and the devil.
Secondly, man is free, has always been free. He was created with a will that is independent of the will of God. That does now work with predestination at all, which is why you cannot recognize scripture in its correct meaning. I can fully empathize with your predicament in that most of scripture just does not align with your view which is why you need to change all of scripture just to have a few verses validate your false teaching. When scripture needs to be changed, modified as much as you have done in this thread, it proves beyond a shadow of doubt that OSAS of necessity is false.

What is so ironic is that you have eliminated most of scripture, thus of necessity making your scriptural support of a few verses null and void anyway. But that should not concern you to much since under absolute predestination God really does not need to reveal anything to man anyway. Man is an inert object to be moved and manipulated by God. Why would man need to know anything about what God desires since he is not a participant with God in any respect.

newbirth · Jun 27, 2014

Atwood said:

Based on your lame excuse for a response and the need of proof for free will shows you are in bondage to your intellect and natural wisdom since you don't know what freedom is...the gospel of God is not man's wisdom but simple for all to understand. What you are doing is called playing smart with foolishness
[h=3]1 Corinthians 2:4-6[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

dcontroversal · Jun 27, 2014

Concerning the question asked in the OP.....

No matter how many times this can be asked from yesterday to eternity the answer will always be yes!

Jesus eternally saves, seals, justifies and keeps all who exercise biblical faith into HIS FAITH!

newbirth · Jun 27, 2014

dcontroversal said:

The OP has no mention of faith much less exercising it. Actually the OP is linked more toward OSAS than Christ. The ES theory is a spin off from OSAS...all doctrine of man

dcontroversal · Jun 27, 2014

newbirth said:

Here is the question....Re: It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security?<---YES

HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY THE PERFECT FAITH OF CHRIST......!

Atwood · Jun 27, 2014

newbirth said:

NewB,
Do you have some proof that it is all doctrine of man?

Have you considered all the scripture I have posted which advocates or supports eternal security? If those verses had not been in the Bible, do you really think that somehow man would have come up with eternal security?

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Rom 8: foreknew >foreordained >called >justified > glorified.

Men did not compose such scripture.

Can you not see how Christians are simply taking God at His word?
Are you more interested in trying to win an argument than in finding eternal life in a Savior Who loves you, offers to be not only the author but the perfecter of your faith, who has promised that having begun a good work in you, He will perfect it?

Can you not trust Him and take Him at His word?

Atwood · Jun 27, 2014

newbirth said:

So, NewB, here comes the personal attack.

You tried to refute OSS not by quoting scripture that negated it, but by your theory of free will which you felt was proven by the apostasy of disciples. I replied that not only was "free will" off subject, but you gave no proof for "free will."

Now you think that instead of admitting you can't prove free will in the disciples who walked off, you can establish your theory by attacking me personally.

Your whole argument is lame. Focus on the topic: eternal security. Quote Bible on eternal life & salvation. Show where anyone ever lost eternal life or salvation. 1 John 2 explains apostasy as proving persons were never saved.

Are you not convicted by all the scripture presented? Can you not believe God's promises?

He who began a good work in the believer will complete it. Plain & simple, regardless of your theories about free will.

The Spirit and the Bride say come. Whoever is willing!

Atwood · Jun 27, 2014

Eternal Security: Very . . . Verily

Cassian said:

Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

newbirth · Jun 27, 2014

Atwood said:

anyone can look back through the posts and see you take pieces of scripture out of context with a greek verb to suit your doctrine
take for instance ...
I can argue we are not the sheep he is talking about here in the piece of scripture you keep quoting...vs 16 is proof of that so do I go make a doctrine of that, no I trust God to treat all his sheep the same.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
So when I see "hear my voice" and "follow Me" no one has to tell me he means obey, but if you don't see the written word you don't get the spirit of the word because everything is literal to you.

Alligator · Jun 27, 2014

newbirth said:

Atwood said:

And you are dismissing the scripture simply because it does not use the exact words you think it should? That is hilarious.

This scripture, provided by newbirth, deals you a "double whammy" that you can't possibly overcome. Not only does it
Deal a death blow to OSAS, it does, contrary to what you say, also prove free will. How much proof do you need? Would it really matter? You would simply give some kind of foolish rebuttal like you did above.

Cassian · Jun 27, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Under the Calvinistic formula of predestination it would be yes.
Unfortunately, ES does not exist is scripture as it was originally given. It does not enter into any faith system until Calvin imposes it upon scripture. That is an historical fact.

Cassian · Jun 27, 2014

Atwood said:

It is not the matter of God's promises. This is why you err in your theory and why you need to dismiss most if not all of the rest of the NT because it does not address the correct side of the relationship. Man. Where is your text that says man can guarantee his faith. Furthermore, etenal life is NOT salvation. Salvation is what Christ did for mankind and the world and give it as a gift to the world. Eternal life is a gift given to those who desire to be in a working relationship with Christ.
Man is free, has an independent will from that of God and God in His sovereign will determined that man would be free. Love cannot exist outside of freedom. Another reason why predestination is false because it also denies the very nature of God.

It seems you are far from anything remotely scriptural. The more you try to explain it, the more scripture you need to deny.
Just face it, ES does not exist in the Truth of scripture.

newbirth · Jun 27, 2014

Atwood said:

you are talking about personal attack but in every post you very craftily imply I am not saved I take no offence
[SUP]
24 [/SUP]Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Cassian · Jun 27, 2014

Re: Eternal Security: Very . . . Verily

Atwood said:

Nothing regarding any security. It has a conditional word, believes. A very good promise and God will always keep His word. But your problem with the issue is that man is an active free moral agent who has a commitment to the covenant he entered with Christ. Man has difficulty in enduring, in remaining faithful. Many fall away for many different reason and thus become unbelievers. As much as you attempt to deny it, you need to change scripture to enforce the false teaching of ES.

Atwood · Jun 27, 2014

Re: Eternal Security: Very . . . Verily

Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Cassian said:

First let me commend you, Cassian, for actually referring to the scripture.

But while referring to the passage, you add a bunch of stuff that is not in the passage & for which you give no scripture at all. You claim:

I urge you to go to Jer 31 and see if there are conditions on men in the New Covenant. The Lord works in His redeemed to will and to do. Remaining faithful? Peter denied the Lord, but Peter's essential trust in the Lord Jesus, did not fail -- for Christ sustained it with intercession. Falling away is a reality, apostasy; but 1 John 2 tells us that apostasy proves one was never saved to begin with. You theorizing about free moral agency and difficulty enduring, has no force whatsoever vs God's promise.

Yes, there is a condition to salvation & to eternal security: whoever believes. When the Lord Jesus spoke this initially, whoever standing there who was believing fulfilled that condition, just like, whoever is wearing brown sandals. Had he said, "Whoever is wearing brown sandals will go to Heaven," then all who were then wearing brown sandals would have fulfilled the condition.

Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life

But it is obviously a general truth, not meant to be limited to the immediate audience. Whoever . . . believes . . . has eternal life. The present belief gains a life that never ends. And the assurance is added that he does not come into any future judgment. The passing from death (being estranged from God) to life (vital connection to God) has been accomplished. The guarantee is that in the future there is no condemning judgment. That is eternal security.

Why fight it?
Trust the Lord for it.
Rest in it,
Nest in it,
Fully be blessed in it.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
For He shall save His people from their sins.

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

Are There Human Conditions to the New Covenant? Security?

Someone here has objected to Eternal Security on the grounds that God's covenant with the Christian has 2 sides to it, and man has to do his part. In having studied the covenants in the Bible, it seems to me that generally they are one-sided. God dictates the terms, and God guarantees the outcome. Abe is asleep when the torch passes between the sacrificial pieces. The Mosaic Covenant on the other hand, does have human conditions with awful curses attached for non-performance. (Like thou shalt be afflicted with the itch that cannot be scratched, or the like.) Indeed that covenant was doomed to failure from the getgo; it is a covenant of condemnation designed to convict of sin and lead men to seek salvation from YHWH.

Now the classic passage on the New Covenant is found at Jeremiah 31:31 (easy to remember). Let's mark what God will do in red, and what man must do in blue. I will mark in purple eternal security.

Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that
I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah. But this is the covenant that
I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah:
I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart
I will write it; and
I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for
I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

Thus saith Jehovah, who giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirreth up the sea, so that the waves thereof roar; Jehovah of hosts is his name: If these ordinances depart from before me, saith Jehovah, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith Jehovah: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then will I also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith Jehovah.

Nothng was marked blue, for there is nothing for the human recipients to do.
They will be God's people (nature as God's children, which we know comes from a supernatural begetting in other scripture) -- this not something they do. It is something they be. The will not teach (etc.) -- a non-doing. Knowing God is not a doing.

The New Covenant can be viewed as an elaboration of the Abrahamic covenant, found starting in Gen 12, here & there. The Gentiles come under its universal provision: Through the seed of Abraham (the Lord Jesus) all the nations of the world will be blessed -- nothing about those nations doing anything to get the blessing or maintain it.

Now aside from the New Covenant teaching, we know that belief is the only requirement for salvation put on man. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. At the time when the believer is presently believing, he has passed forever from death to life, and is guaranteed in the future not to come into a condemning judgment.

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

newbirth said:

So great that you include the promise of eternal life. Note it is not a guarantee of 15 minutes, but then baby, you are on you own.

Here again, you quote scripture that says nothing about salvation or losing it, nor losing faith. Then you want to infer loss of salvation from it (bad methodology). I think the passage is clearer if we use the ASV abide translation (as in John 15).

1 John can be considered an expansion on John 15: Abide in Christ, which refers to fellowship or intimate connection, not salvation (stay in intimate fellowship with Christ).

As for you, let that abide in you which ye heard from the beginning. If that which ye heard from the beginning abide in you, ye also shall abide in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise which he promised us, even the life eternal. These things have I written unto you concerning them that would lead you astray. And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him. And now, my little children, abide in him; that, if he shall be manifested, we may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one also that doeth righteousness is begotten of him.

[If a Christian was out of fellowship with the Lord Jesus when Christ returns, the Christian will be ashamed -- but still saved.]

"But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him? "

Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No man hath beheld God at any time: if we love one another, God abideth in us, and his love is perfected in us: hereby we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father hath sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in God.

Focus on the Savior, NewB;
Rest in Him.
Trust Him as your Savior instead of merely a judge who gives you a chance at salvation.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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