It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[homwardbound]

Indeed there may be many hares split in this thread. Do you have a meat cleaver and a rabbit?

But trusting the Lord Jesus as one's only and sufficient Savior, trusting Him as the one who will keep you from perishing and present you faultless in Heaven, is no hair-split.

For by Christ:
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

So we all by Christ are presented as Holy to Father, now what?
Ask for the new life in the resurrected Christ, is what I see? and be saved by God and God alone ans thus walk in Faith as Christ did this already showing us to be dependent on Father alone.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[homwardbound]

You have proven you delusions.You are afraid to answer my questions. I cannot endorse a doctrine of man it is unholy. You are right you are not pure, boast in your confession of impurity, God is our witness

[h=3]2 Corinthians 12:7-9[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Thank you Lord I need you, i have no righteousness, for you are the only one righteous and I put my trust in you to partake in this righteous that is yours not mine, and so show me whenever my "I" eye tries to take over and buffet me please to keep me humble, thank you in advance for I believe you are Faithful to show me and teach me and not mankind, includes me the flesh that "I" was originally born in

 

[homwardbound]

Sir, I don't have time to go through all your posts. You are one long winded dude.
I believe I have a small understanding of how you view works, and I would say that you still don't understand what faith is, or the type of works James is talking about.
Again, you are talking about works one does after one is save that shows they are born again, such as loving God and neighbor. Yes, that kind of work is the result of ones conversion, but it is not the same a works of faith.
Works of faith are not the same as works of the flesh or works/fruit of the Spirit. They may all be good works, but works of faith precede faith, not the reverse. Without the works, your faith will be powerless, it will remain as a wish or desire that never happened, or a prayer that went unanswered.
Works make faith work. Without works, you faith will not work. That is why James says your faith is dead without works.


That depend on the type of works you are referring to. The kind you are talking about, no, it will not cause salvation to happen.
But the kind written in Romans will.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Confession is a work that precedes salvation, not a result of ones salvation.

now sorry but that is splitting hairs as from where i am viewing this entire posts thread from all?

Are we this i post below or not?

[SIZE=+3]The Fellowship of the Unashamed[/SIZE]​

I am part of the "Fellowship of the Unashamed."
The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line.
The decision has been made. I am a disciple of
Jesus Christ. I won't look back, let up, slow down,
back away, or be still. My past is redeemed, my present
makes sense, and my future is secure.
I am finished and done with low living, sight walking,
small planning, smooth knees, colorless dreams,
chintzy giving, and dwarfed goals.

I no longer need pre-eminence, prosperity, position,
promotions, plaudits, or popularity. I now live by
presence, lean by faith, love by patience,
lift by prayer, and labor by power. My pace
is set, my gait is fast, my goal is Heaven, my
road is narrow, my way is rough, my companions few,
my Guide reliable, my mission clear. I cannot be bought,
compromised, deterred, lured away, turned back,
diluted, or delayed.

I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice, hesitate in the
presence of adversity, negotiate at the table of the enemy,
ponder at the pool of popularity, or meander
in the maze of mediocrity.

I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. I must go until
Heaven returns, give until I drop, preach until all know,
and work until He comes. And when He comes to get
His own, He will have no problem recognizing me.
My colors will be clear.

[SIZE=+1]I am not ashamed of the gospel . . . Romans 1:16[/SIZE]

 

[newbirth]

For by Christ:
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

So we all by Christ are presented as Holy to Father, now what?
Ask for the new life in the resurrected Christ, is what I see? and be saved by God and God alone ans thus walk in Faith as Christ did this already showing us to be dependent on Father alone.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

a half truth is a lie so put in the other half this is wickedness
[h=3]Colossians 1:22-23[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


there is no presentation for you if you don't continue in the faith and you must be grounded and settled and not moved away.

 

[Skinski7]

a half truth is a lie so put in the other half this is wickedness
Colossians 1:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


there is no presentation for you if you don't continue in the faith and you must be grounded and settled and not moved away.

You allude to an all to common problem.

The isolating of select Bible verses absent of their true context.

 

[newbirth]

2 Corinthians 12:7-9

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Thank you Lord I need you, i have no righteousness, for you are the only one righteous and I put my trust in you to partake in this righteous that is yours not mine, and so show me whenever my "I" eye tries to take over and buffet me please to keep me humble, thank you in advance for I believe you are Faithful to show me and teach me and not mankind, includes me the flesh that "I" was originally born in

what is your point of this post homwardbound , to say you have no righteousness you think that will impress God this is what he is saying to us [h=3]Romans 6:17-19[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

 

[Atwood]

what is your point of this post homwardbound , to say you have no righteousness you think that will impress God this is what he is saying to us Romans 6:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Great verses. Thanks for posting them.
Of course these verses pertain to the one who has been co-crucified with Christ, baptized into Christ (not "water"); those who have trusted Christ as Savior.

So if you want to enter into the "made free from sin" ([passive, you don't do this yourself), you must first rest in the Lord Jesus, cease from works-salvation delusions, depend wholly upon the crucified and His substitution on the cross for your righteousness.

"Made free from sin." He is the maker of any freedom you may have; He is the SAvior. Men who trust Him are the savees. The unsaved man is hopeless bound, a slave of sin.

But if the Son shall make your free, you shall be free indeed?

Now is the day of salvation, now the time to trust Him for the redemption (setting free). Call out now in faith.

For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[fredjames]

Originally Posted by Atwood

WANT TO BE JUDGED FOR YOUR WORKS?

I do not regret to inform you that the problem with justification by works is that neither you, nor I, nor anyone else will ever be justified by Works at the Bar of God's Judgment. Maybe you think that you just slip up a tad now and then. But your good works are so much more! Well pick up the pipe and smoke Roman starting in ch 1 on just how bad you and I have been, and apart from God's grace we will not get better. Do you not know that the works of man are a stench in the nostrils of the Almighty?

8 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.


24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: 25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.


28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto
a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all
unrighteousness,
wickedness,
covetousness,
maliciousness;
full of envy,
murder,
strife,
deceit,
malignity;
whisperers,
backbiters,
hateful to God,
insolent,
haughty,
boastful,
inventors of evil things,
disobedient to parents,
without understanding,
covenant-breakers,
without natural affection,
unmerciful:
who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.


Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things. 3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 but after

thy hardness and
impenitent heart

treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who will render to every man according to his works: 7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: 8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: 11 for there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For

as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and
as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: …


9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that

they are all under sin;
as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.



The post is in response to those who want to get eternal life by their good works. The post I made illustrates the folly of that approach by its description of such wanters. It is like ugly-to-the-bone women (with monstrous deformities) insisting on entering a beauty contest.

To the general reader of this thread, who admits his desperate need:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
that is His promise, that is an essential part of the definition of the Savior.
He can be trusted with your eternal destiny.
Do so today.

Sorry to confess this according to the New Covenant, HE said these as you have quoted of spirit and life words of the HOLY SPIRIT in JESUS of Nazareth, to those who who have been called and promised 'eternal security', further in HIS Teachings walk to 'abide/continue' in HIS 'words' and 'love' of the FATHER in HIM, then you will be fruitful in works of the Kingdom of GOD and your fruit must also 'abide' as well, as written in the Scripture of the 'True Wine' in the Gospel of John the Apostle.

In the written Gospel, Matthew 7;24-27, that every believers and non-believers must welcome, said HE (LORD JESUS CHRIST);

"Those who listen to these 'teachings of mine' and 'do/practice' them,..........................................................."

Are they not written 'works' partly and wholly in the New Covenant, that we are opposing, JESUS's Words of spirit and life and making excuses quoting other Scripture, in order to continues in our sinful Christian lives and dismiss the written spiritual facts, in order to follow the many in the 'wide road' to destruction?

Friend, with all due respect for you, in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST, who still loves you, deception is working in you to disregard Living proof, as written and to understand by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, Teacher in conformed sound doctrine knowledge.

And not for your and other's or my advantage, in order to continue using Scripture here and there and justifying ignorant faith in non-completion, hoping something good will come of it.

 

[Skinski7]

The "righteousness of God" is a particular standard of righteousness. It is the kind of righteousness that flows out of a pure heart which is abiding in the will of God. Thus the outward deeds will be rooted in true benevolence, in true love.

That standard is what Jesus Christ preached in the Sermon on the Mount. That is the standard that the Pharisees were not living up to. The Pharisees saw their righteousness in the observance of outward ritual and rule keeping and thus fell well short of the inner pure motive which is acceptable to God.

Today so many believe in what could be called a "righteousness package" which they perceive as credited to their account on behalf of Christ. Thus they will claim that they themselves have none of their own righteousness but are in possession of the righteousness of Christ. They hold to an "abstract righteousness" apart from actual "heart purity." These false notions are rooted in the ancient philosophies of dualism where the material body was disconnected from the spirit, ancient philosophies which taught that one could be "pure in the abstract" whilst being "manifestly defiled."

These false notions infiltrated Christian theology in a massive way through Augustine of Hippo in the Fourth Century with his promotion of "Original Sin" which deemed sin as something apart from a moral choice. Thus human beings were declared sinful by proxy of simply being born and this in turn upheld the view that salvation could be declared by proxy of simply "believing in Jesus."

Many people today are utterly deceived by this notion that they are credited judicially with the "righteousness of Christ" and thus view salvation as purely "positional" apart from any actual manifest change. Thus the original lie of "you can sin and not surely die" has been given a doctrinal foundation of apparent truth.

Think about it.

 

[Skinski7]

[/COLOR]
Great verses. Thanks for posting them.
Of course these verses pertain to the one who has been co-crucified with Christ, baptized into Christ (not "water"); those who have trusted Christ as Savior.

So if you want to enter into the "made free from sin" ([passive, you don't do this yourself), you must first rest in the Lord Jesus, cease from works-salvation delusions, depend wholly upon the crucified and His substitution on the cross for your righteousness.

"Made free from sin." He is the maker of any freedom you may have; He is the SAvior. Men who trust Him are the savees. The unsaved man is hopeless bound, a slave of sin.

But if the Son shall make your free, you shall be free indeed?

Now is the day of salvation, now the time to trust Him for the redemption (setting free). Call out now in faith.

For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Being co-crucified with Christ involves a manifest death of the old man, the old man who "served sin." That is why in Romans it speaks of "obedience to the truth" as "setting one free from sin." One cannot serve sin and righteousness at the same time and therefore there must be a change.

Jesus did not substitute His righteousness for ours as you claim. Jesus exhibited His righteousness on our behalf that we would follow Him as an example. He "purchased us" that we may shift from the service of one master to another.

Believing and trusting can NEVER be disconnected from doing and obeying. They are one and the same thing.

 

[Atwood]

a half truth is a lie so put in the other half this is wickedness
Colossians 1:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

there is no presentation for you if you don't continue in the faith and you must be grounded and settled and not moved away.

That is called in logic the fallacy of denying an antecedent. If A then B; therefore if not B, not A. A fallacy. You can get to New York if you take a plane. To conclude from that If you don't take a plane, you don't get to New York is a fallacy. There are buses.

However, since by our eternal security we are guaranteed eternal life and to never perish, if continuing in faith is also a requirement, then it follows that we do continue in the faith if we trusted Christ as Savior.

Eternal security means we do endure. So any test of endurance is covered. Believers do endure.

"He is able to keep."

He does keep:

He promises His sheep:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

 

[Skinski7]

That is called in logic the fallacy of denying an antecedent. If A then B; therefore if not B, not A. A fallacy. You can get to New York if you take a plane. To conclude from that If you don't take a plane, you don't get to New York is a fallacy. There are buses.

However, since by our eternal security we are guaranteed eternal life and to never perish, if continuing in faith is also a requirement, then it follows that we do continue in the faith if we trusted Christ as Savior.

Eternal security means we do endure. So any test of endurance is covered. Believers do endure.

"He is able to keep."

He does keep:

He promises His sheep:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

So if you truly believe that then is it possible to willfully disobey God and still remain justified? Or do you believe that the rebellion stops once and for all at salvation and therefore a saved person never willfully disobeys God again?

 

[Atwood]

Skin, you say a bunch of stuff which requires no refutation since it was not proven from scripture; but it was just you saying it.

Jesus did not substitute His righteousness for ours as you claim.

Imputation is a Biblical truth.
Adam's sin is imputed to all men.
Christ bore Adam's sin and all men's sin on the cross as our substitute.
Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer.

Romans 5

Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. . . .

For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for
[both on behalf of and instead of = substitution]
the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:— for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many. And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification. For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ. So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly: that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The only cause of a man becoming righteousness is Christ's death/resurrection and our id with Him.

Jesus exhibited His righteousness on our behalf that we would follow Him as an example.

You will only find condemnation if you try that as a means of salvation, for you fail utterly at it. He was perfect, never had the slightest itch to sin.

[Believing and trusting can NEVER be disconnected from doing and obeying. They are one and the same thing.

You just said it, but that proves nothing.

The Scripture clearly separates believing for salvation from working for salvation.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest any should boast.

Instead of ending up boasting, you will end up in shame.

Now after a man trusts Christ as Savior, he finds Himself for once being able to do good works, which inevitably follow faith. Works follow salvation, but are not its cause.

that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.


What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling;

apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe”

o sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of

God”

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[newbirth]

That is called in logic the fallacy of denying an antecedent. If A then B; therefore if not B, not A. A fallacy. You can get to New York if you take a plane. To conclude from that If you don't take a plane, you don't get to New York is a fallacy. There are buses.

if I tell you to take a plane and you take a bus you are disobedient

However, since by our eternal security we are guaranteed eternal life and to never perish, if continuing in faith is also a requirement, then it follows that we do continue in the faith if we trusted Christ as Savior.

you miss the mark by a mile friend there is no guarantee outside of Christ, eternal life is in him you cannot be in him unless you are transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.even so you have to continue to the end.

Eternal security means we do endure. So any test of endurance is covered. Believers do endure

[h=3]Matthew 24:12-14[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.(this is believers he is talking about their love wax cold)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.





[h=3]John 10:26-28[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]26 [/SUP]But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

"He is able to keep."

He does keep:

He promises His sheep:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

they hear him he knows them they follow him and he gives them eternal life. Why do you want to change the order of things , that's the way it is
but you have proven yourself not to be his sheep by trying to change God's word

 

[Cassian]

Re: ROM 2:7 Canard

Well, you returned Cassian.

This is the straw man of futility, that man who would be righteous by works is described as a wretched abomination:

1Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Do you get it yet Cassian, we are really wretched sinners. Have you arrived at that knowledge yet, that you are a sinner? Hanging around the Law should educate us.

Your still clinging to the strawman. It seems the only way your theory works is to fight against works of the law, but works of the law are not even in the spectrum of discussion.

 

[Cassian]

Skin, you say a bunch of stuff which requires no refutation since it was not proven from scripture; but it was just you saying it.



Imputation is a Biblical truth.
Adam's sin is imputed to all men.
Christ bore Adam's sin and all men's sin on the cross as our substitute.
Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer.

Romans 5

Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. . . .

For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for
[both on behalf of and instead of = substitution]
the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:— for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many. And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification. For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ. So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly: that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The only cause of a man becoming righteousness is Christ's death/resurrection and our id with Him.



You will only find condemnation if you try that as a means of salvation, for you fail utterly at it. He was perfect, never had the slightest itch to sin.



You just said it, but that proves nothing.

The Scripture clearly separates believing for salvation from working for salvation.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest any should boast.

Instead of ending up boasting, you will end up in shame.

Now after a man trusts Christ as Savior, he finds Himself for once being able to do good works, which inevitably follow faith. Works follow salvation, but are not its cause.

that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.


What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling;

apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe”

o sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of

God”

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Very good Calvinism along with a large dose of the false teachings of Original Sin, and the Satisfaction theory of atonement. Hardly much that was stated is scriptural.

 

[newbirth]

[/COLOR]
Great verses. Thanks for posting them.
Of course these verses pertain to the one who has been co-crucified with Christ, baptized into Christ (not "water"); those who have trusted Christ as Savior.

So if you want to enter into the "made free from sin" ([passive, you don't do this yourself), you must first rest in the Lord Jesus, cease from works-salvation delusions, depend wholly upon the crucified and His substitution on the cross for your righteousness.

"Made free from sin." He is the maker of any freedom you may have; He is the SAvior. Men who trust Him are the savees. The unsaved man is hopeless bound, a slave of sin.

But if the Son shall make your free, you shall be free indeed?

Now is the day of salvation, now the time to trust Him for the redemption (setting free). Call out now in faith.

For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You need not worry about me my friend I know whom I hear and serve and he knows me and I follow him and he gives me eternal life and I shall not perish.

 

[newbirth]

So if you truly believe that then is it possible to willfully disobey God and still remain justified? Or do you believe that the rebellion stops once and for all at salvation and therefore a saved person never willfully disobeys God again?

This man thinks he has Christ in a full nelson and Christ have no choice but to obey him and save him. After beating around the bush for so long he just now realise he has to continue in faith. Instead of accepting it as truth he says IF continuing in faith is also a requirement, then it follows that we do continue in the faith if we trusted Christ as Savior.He says he trust God and but don't know what God commands him to do. Stuck in a doctrine of man in a perpetual loop of confusion.

 

[know1]

Justification is not exactly the same thing as salvation. Justification means a declaration of righteousness. Let us not interpret James as contradicting himself here. He said:
"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, just as Paul does.

Yes, he was declared righteous when he believed, but he was justified, when he put work to it.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I'm not trying to shout at you or anything like that, nor am I frustrated or angry, but you keep ignoring plain English, or what is in front of your face that's in black and white, so I made it red for to see it clearer.

The declaration of righteousness when he first believed could not have been by works. James says he was justified by faith, just as Paul does.

No, James said we are justified with works, not by faith alone.
Many people think righteousness and justified are synonymous, like spirit and heart, and faith and believing,...etc., when they are not.
Can one be declared righteous and not go to heaven? Apparently, according to Romans 10:10, salvation is not made till confession is made. That is how I read it. Which follows what faith is.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
According to scripture, the word of faith is a two step process. Believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth, then you are saved, and not any sooner. If you just believe in your heart then Paul and James would not have put the works as part of the faith process that leads to salvation.


Even the word believe, as I have said in many prior posts, is not passive as you suppose. James again makes that very clear.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can [his] faith save him [without works or corresponding action] ?
No, is the suggested answer. His faith cannot save him without works. Isn't that what this is saying?
Whatever is in cyan or blue was written or added by me.
It's just a basic biblical fact, faith doesn't work without works.
If Peter believed he could walk on the water but never moved his feet, what good was it. He believed in vain, and his belief never attained the status of faith, because he never put a work to it.


Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Believing requires no effort on your part, but faith does.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
As this scripture says, we are not saved by believing, but by faith.
We are declared righteous when we believe in our hearts, but justified when we confess in faith.



I think we can all agree that we are saved by the grace of God though faith, right? No one seems to ignore that.
But the bible also says that there is only one kind of faith, and that is the God kind, of which, Jesus is the author of.
And this God kind of faith works one way and one way only, without exception. The same faith that is required for one to have salvation, is the same kind required to get healed or delivered or receive any of the gifts of the Spirit or anything at all from God. Without faith, you get nothing from God. It is a must. Even if one waivers just a little bit,... you get nothing. God said, 'don't even let that man think that he shall receive anything of the lord, if he waiver.

 

[Starcrash]

I'm sure this conversation has moved far from the OP by this point, but I am a former Christian. I used to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and now I don't. A lot of people doubt that -- some reasonably because my personal thoughts and beliefs from a long time ago can't be sufficiently proven, and some unreasonably by committing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy by arguing that I must not have been a "true Christian".

When I was a Christian, I believed that I couldn't possibly lose my belief. But losing it was the proof, on top of the doubts I already had, that the bible was not completely true. And why shouldn't it be possible? If you can change your belief from disbelieving God to believing in God, why would it be impossible to do the opposite?