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Cobus,
Have your sins been forgiven?
The reason I ask is that you are teaching that actual rebirth (being born again) comes with being perfected. I reference this passage...
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
I am aware of others who teach this doctrine (namely Truecore08 on Youtube TrueCore08's channel - YouTube ). The problem I have with this doctrine though is that the scriptures clearly teach that the remission of sins is tied to rebirth. If you carefully examine what Peter writes in 2 Peter chapter 1 he speaks of "adding to our faith" which is no doubt the equivalent of the "growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ" through the application of what we learn yet Peter makes a reference to the man who does not do this in verse 2Pet 1:9 as forgetting that his sins have already been purged. Thus the purging of sin comes BEFORE one adds to their faith and is thus perfected.
If you compare this to Hebrews 9:13-15 where it speaks of how the blood purges our consciences of dead works and how that relates to the remission of transgressions under the first covenant. In other words it is dealing with past misconduct ala Rom 3:25.
The blotting out of sins is connected in scripture with the refreshing which in the Greek is...
anapsuxis
From G404; properly a recovery of breath, that is, (figuratively) revival: - revival.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
You can also see that the forgiveness of sins is connected with "being quickened together with Him."
suzōopoieō
From G4862 and G2227; to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively): - quicken together with.
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Here are some more relevant scriptures which are good to compare.
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Mat_26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
I have read many of your posts and it appears that you believe that the Old Man is crucified over a long period of time and that this period of time is sanctification. Then at the end of this sanctification process or the perfecting of the saints is when one actually becomes born again.
I think that is a very dangerous error because it undermines the purpose of repentance (which is to purge the heart of rebellion and prepare an individual to receive the implanted word) and thus puts an individual into a state of waiting on God to change them and conform them into His image.
I have communicated these issues with those who teach this doctrine but have yet to receive a response directly addressing my queries.
Romans 6:6 teaches that the body of sin is destroyed via the old man being crucified with Christ. It is something that happens at a moment in time once and for all. The Bible does not teach it is a gradual thing. Those that are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with its passions and desires and this is directly related to the death of the old man. This is where the yielding to sin stops and the yielding to God begins. It is where the enslavement to sin ceases and we become a slave to righteousness.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Read the next passage carefully as Peter refers to the "trial of faith" and he is speaking in context with those who are "born again." I think you have confused "being born again" with "being granted entrance into the kingdom."
Being being born again is not a guarantee that one will enter the kingdom simply because we have to remain steadfast and endure to the end. Eternal life is a hope and promise if we do this. We are kept by the power of God through faith which means as long as we are doers of the word and remain steadfast in faith we will receive the promise. God will deliver us from all temptation and preserve us to the end so long as we do not turn away from Him.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed [the reconciliation has already taken place]with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Look at this...
1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
The perfecting of the saints and coming into the unity of the faith is this growth. Yet rebirth comes first. Rebirth is simply being raised up by God from darkness to light by His power and it follows a genuine repentance experience whereby one forsakes their rebellion through a broken godly sorrow. This is where the axe is laid to the root cause of sin in one's life.
When one is born again they are not perfect. They need to be perfected. What they are though is no longer rebellious to God. The rebellion has ceased and in its place is a willingness to yield to the instruction of God whereby one may grow.
Please consider these things and I look forward to your response.
God bless.
no dear, it's because you are a heretic.
Originally Posted by Skinski7
Absolutely we cannot love unconditionally until God raises us up to newness of life. I have never taught otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinski7
What you do is you connect the "forsaking of sin" with the actual result of "being born again" and thus teach that the former is impossible without the latter. Thus you reverse the Gospel and have the forsaking of rebellion occurring after forgiveness is granted. The Bible clearly teaches the opposite of what you believe.
you neither loved God unconditionally before He saved you (debatable), or AFTER.
claiming you do makes you a liar.
which you are.
Originally Posted by Skinski7
Absolutely we cannot love unconditionally until God raises us up to newness of life. I have never taught otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinski7
What you do is you connect the "forsaking of sin" with the actual result of "being born again" and thus teach that the former is impossible without the latter. Thus you reverse the Gospel and have the forsaking of rebellion occurring after forgiveness is granted. The Bible clearly teaches the opposite of what you believe.
you neither loved God unconditionally before He saved you (debatable), or AFTER.
claiming you do makes you a liar.
which you are.
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Heart purity is the purpose of the Gospel and those who are Christ's have been made pure by their faith. We are to love God with ALL our heart, ALL our mind, and ALL our soul. We are to walk with God with OUR WHOLE being and nothing else will suffice. This is what being born again is all about.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
Pure - katharos
Of uncertain affinity; clean (literally or figuratively): - clean, clear, pure.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
Pure - katharos
Of uncertain affinity; clean (literally or figuratively): - clean, clear, pure.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
blah blah blah.
so you can post the scriptures?
you said people must purify THEMSELVES under the law before God will even consider them.
which means Christ died for no purpose.
which makes you an heretic. which you are.
did you know this is the COMMANDMENT #1 and without it you're already a dead man?
tell me Mr. Righteous - do you claim to fulfill the First Great Command according to Father's requirement?
now if you have had a Gospel adjustment, just admit it before the church - that you were wrong. you'll be welcomed...even after all that fire-breathing and threatenings against her you've been doing, Saul.
or, you can do what all heretics do: when discovered, slither away and come back with a new variation.
*shrug*
mean nothing to me.
i know lots of guys like you. some of the most defiled hearts out there - thinking you are on par with MY LORD.
*yawn*
so you can post the scriptures?
you said people must purify THEMSELVES under the law before God will even consider them.
which means Christ died for no purpose.
which makes you an heretic. which you are.
did you know this is the COMMANDMENT #1 and without it you're already a dead man?
tell me Mr. Righteous - do you claim to fulfill the First Great Command according to Father's requirement?
now if you have had a Gospel adjustment, just admit it before the church - that you were wrong. you'll be welcomed...even after all that fire-breathing and threatenings against her you've been doing, Saul.
or, you can do what all heretics do: when discovered, slither away and come back with a new variation.
*shrug*
mean nothing to me.
i know lots of guys like you. some of the most defiled hearts out there - thinking you are on par with MY LORD.
*yawn*
E
James is not saying an induvidual MUST bear fruit. He is saying HE WILL. As Paul said, We are saved by grace through faith, and not of ourselves. But those who are saved, will do the work God created them to do. he also tells us in titus, we were not saved by any good deeds (works of righteousness) we have done, but by the washing and renewal (new birth) of the Holy Spirit.
Pauls letter was to an audience who were being bombarded by those trying to add works, and also who came from a pagan society which preaches works is a means to appease an angry God. James on the other hand was speaking against people who claimed to have faith, but only had mere belief. he told them that hearers of the word only, but not doers, who have no works, their faith is dead.
Since they did not have the works Paul said they would have, they would not be saved. One can not be saved by mere belief.
Pauls letter was to an audience who were being bombarded by those trying to add works, and also who came from a pagan society which preaches works is a means to appease an angry God. James on the other hand was speaking against people who claimed to have faith, but only had mere belief. he told them that hearers of the word only, but not doers, who have no works, their faith is dead.
Since they did not have the works Paul said they would have, they would not be saved. One can not be saved by mere belief.
Heretic? Thanks, yes I would definitely be excommunicated by the Catholics and I would be proud of it.
The question here is, Does the Faith come first or the Works? Is this just Good Works or Works thorugh Faith? I don't know that you can tell from the outside. Remember though, Faith without Works is Dead.
Christians are all about things that don't make worldly sense:
We Live by Dieing
We Get by Giving
We are Richest when we are Poor
We Fight the Good Fight by Turning the other cheek
We become Free by Submitting
Works ARE REQUIRED. Faith by itself is not enough. We must Labor to enter into the Rest.
When Jesus comes for us, He will have Rewards in His Hand. I want nothing more than to hear Him say to me "Well Done thou good and faithful Servant." I think most Christians agree, or they are not really Christians.
The question here is, Does the Faith come first or the Works? Is this just Good Works or Works thorugh Faith? I don't know that you can tell from the outside. Remember though, Faith without Works is Dead.
Christians are all about things that don't make worldly sense:
We Live by Dieing
We Get by Giving
We are Richest when we are Poor
We Fight the Good Fight by Turning the other cheek
We become Free by Submitting
Works ARE REQUIRED. Faith by itself is not enough. We must Labor to enter into the Rest.
When Jesus comes for us, He will have Rewards in His Hand. I want nothing more than to hear Him say to me "Well Done thou good and faithful Servant." I think most Christians agree, or they are not really Christians.
E
1. The prodigal son never stopped being the son, He already had the power. Your refusal to see this, and look at how he became the son in the first place amazes me and shows your true heart.
2. The ninivites repented at the teaching of jonah, and believed what he said. Thus they too were given the ability to do good.
Your saying one must do good first. The ninivites did not do this. All they did was repent, and admit they were guilty and came to God. they were saved before they did their first good deed. Another fact you can not understand!
No. I am teaching that all sin comes from pride. and we do not have the capacity to do good because the thing which God gave mankind to do good (his love) was taken away when sin entered the world. Since we do not have access to gods love, we can not love others in the way we were intended to love, for this reason, everything we do comes from a selfish attitude. In order to recieve gain. As john said, we love because God first loved us. Until we are born again, and have recieved and experienced Gods love, we can do nothing good. For even the moral good we do is filthy rags, because it is not for the reason God commanded us to do it, but for selfish gain. Another fact you can not comprehend!
So what your saying is we have to promise to be sinless, and show an act of doing this very thing before God will save us. And he may save us when we come to him, but only if we show we are able to become sinless? Do you not see the conundrum you have? What your saying does not make sense. Your no better than the pharisees, and you can;t even see it!
Yes, and why is it transgression? Because it is self motivated, and not motivated out of love, Anything you do with self motivation is sin. You should know, you do it all the time. we all do.
1. Ninivah could not be proud. For they acknowledged their sin separated them from God. How could they be proud for changing when it was Gods power that changed them.
2. Again with the prodigal son? He was already the son, Unlike th eninivites where were not children of God. they repented and asked God to forgive them, then they became children, it was Gods work. not theres.
3. Again with adultry? How about all the other sins? you like to stick to the big three, but you refuse to see the many other sins people commit.
4. It is not pride to forsake sin. Because we do not have the power to forsake it. Only God, by giving us love, can give us the power to forsake self and give to others.
Your issue is saying we must do it BEFORE we are saved. when it is impossible to do it, because we have not yet felt Gods love to give us a capacity to love others.
You are correct here. Love does allow us to do what is right, Your issue is you are saying we must do this of our own power first. then we might be saved. When scripture makes it clear. Once we are saved, we WILL do these things. How can one who is filled with th elove of God not love others? you don;t understand, most likely because you do not have God slove, your still trying to earn it.
I adressed it. I have been showing it all along.
You can sit there and claim you do not teach we ar emade righteous by the law all you want. But saying we are not saved if we do not obay the law or lose it when we fail, you are doing just this.
you don;t make any sense. Try again. Have to power to rebell? we all have that power, even when saved, god did nt remove our sinful nature. he kept it in us, until we are risen with a new body free of sin. Until then, we can always chose to do anything with self in mind, Anything we do with self in mind is sin.
P
This thread has served to make me so grateful for our pastor/teacher. 
He's a former Catholic, and fully appreciates grace.♥
We're going through the book of Romans currently, and every time he preaches,
I find myself rejoicing more! (even when I thought I couldn't possibly...I do! )
So, thanks to each of you...the ones who speak the Truth,
and the ones who need to learn.
There's not one thing we can do to earn it,
and not one thing we can do to deserve it,
but God grants not only eternal life through Christ,
but life now, and abundant life, too!
Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life. (John 14:6) ♥
I am just so thankful, and thank all of you for allowing me to praise our Abba
and our Savior for His wonderful gift to us!
-ellie
He's a former Catholic, and fully appreciates grace.♥
We're going through the book of Romans currently, and every time he preaches,
I find myself rejoicing more! (even when I thought I couldn't possibly...I do!
)So, thanks to each of you...the ones who speak the Truth,
and the ones who need to learn.
There's not one thing we can do to earn it,
and not one thing we can do to deserve it,
but God grants not only eternal life through Christ,
but life now, and abundant life, too!
Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life. (John 14:6) ♥
I am just so thankful, and thank all of you for allowing me to praise our Abba
and our Savior for His wonderful gift to us!
-ellie
who told you dat?
oh ya. this guy who can't even get his blog name right >> Standing the Gap
(send him an email and give him the little word IN < an important preposition)
............................
a-a-a-a-anyways:
Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
πιστις noun - nominative singular feminine
pistis pis'-tis: persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself -- assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
oh lookie.
only one guy (who doesn't know what a preposition is for) ever looked up faith.
the reformers, who actually read greek, just kinda missed it.
not to mention they were never saved, so didn't have an active faith.
skinski i feel sorry for you (kinda)
E
yes you would get excommunicated from an organisation. But you would still not have found Christ.
Faith without works is dead. because it is no faith whatsoever. true faith will produce true works. The issue is not works, the issue is does one have salvic faith or not.
works are not required, if they are, jesus died in veign, because we could save ourselves.
works are a given to those who have faith. to those who have mere belief, they will have no works, thus their lack of faith will be proven.
...And this yielding is as a result of the quickening from the Spirit. Consequently, the sinner turns from their wickedness to Christ for salvation.
That is what James was talking about. The believer's faith must be accompanied with obedience. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves (James 1:22).
I agree with the necessity of repentance for salvation.
Skinski, Paul was talking about how a sinner can become saved. This is through faith alone in the Lord Jesus apart from works to win God's favor. Jesus died for our righteousness so a sinner can only be declared righteous through faith in Him.
Repentance is needed but that is not the "works" Paul was referring to. Faith alone is faith without deeds of the law which Paul mentioned in Romans 3:28 (Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law)
and Ephesians 2:8-9 (For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast).
Some theologians of old corrupted the gospel nonetheless the word of God stands forever. There is consequence for adding and taking away from the word.
That's what Jude said about people perverting the gospel... Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. However, we as believers are to uphold the truth.
If someone adulterates the biblical doctrine of repentance tomorrow, are you going to deny it too because of this? Why do you deny certain essential messages of the Christian faith simply because some have perverted it? I would suggest that you search the scriptures for yourself and pray for the leading of the Holy Spirit instead of looking into these religious men.
Original sin does not annul repentance and free will or hold man captive in sin. It only shows our need for the Savior. Your teaching lacks a solid foundation because it denies the truth of the state of man before the new birth. Your denial of the taint of sin brought to humanity implies that we do not need Jesus as our Savior but can attain righteousness on our own. In addition, according your argument there is a possibility for one to be born into this world with good upbringing and not be exposed to anything that will elicit temptation to sin thus they will not sin and will be automatically saved. However the bible says all have sinned. Justification is through Christ alone. I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me (John 14:6). Man cannot be righteous in the sight of God without Christ.
No one is born in a neutral state; it must be spiritually alive or spiritually dead so since spiritual life comes after salvation through repentance and faith in Christ then man, in fact, is born spiritually dead because of Adam's sin. By one man sin entered into the world and death by sin (not merely physical death, but spiritual death). Psalm 51:5- Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Why do you deny this Skinski?
That is what James was talking about. The believer's faith must be accompanied with obedience. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves (James 1:22).
I agree with the necessity of repentance for salvation.
Skinski, Paul was talking about how a sinner can become saved. This is through faith alone in the Lord Jesus apart from works to win God's favor. Jesus died for our righteousness so a sinner can only be declared righteous through faith in Him.
Repentance is needed but that is not the "works" Paul was referring to. Faith alone is faith without deeds of the law which Paul mentioned in Romans 3:28 (Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law)
and Ephesians 2:8-9 (For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast).
Some theologians of old corrupted the gospel nonetheless the word of God stands forever. There is consequence for adding and taking away from the word.
That's what Jude said about people perverting the gospel... Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. However, we as believers are to uphold the truth.
If someone adulterates the biblical doctrine of repentance tomorrow, are you going to deny it too because of this? Why do you deny certain essential messages of the Christian faith simply because some have perverted it? I would suggest that you search the scriptures for yourself and pray for the leading of the Holy Spirit instead of looking into these religious men.
Original sin does not annul repentance and free will or hold man captive in sin. It only shows our need for the Savior. Your teaching lacks a solid foundation because it denies the truth of the state of man before the new birth. Your denial of the taint of sin brought to humanity implies that we do not need Jesus as our Savior but can attain righteousness on our own. In addition, according your argument there is a possibility for one to be born into this world with good upbringing and not be exposed to anything that will elicit temptation to sin thus they will not sin and will be automatically saved. However the bible says all have sinned. Justification is through Christ alone. I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me (John 14:6). Man cannot be righteous in the sight of God without Christ.
No one is born in a neutral state; it must be spiritually alive or spiritually dead so since spiritual life comes after salvation through repentance and faith in Christ then man, in fact, is born spiritually dead because of Adam's sin. By one man sin entered into the world and death by sin (not merely physical death, but spiritual death). Psalm 51:5- Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Why do you deny this Skinski?
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Yes it does because Original Sin teaches that human beings sin because of their nature instead of by choice. Thus actual sin is the result of a malady and not in choosing to willfully rebel.
Sin is not natural and that is why people feel guilt. Indeed sinning can become natural through repeated habit in the same way that Cocaine or Video Games illicit the development of neuron pathways in the brain. Sin is addictive in this sense. Yet this addiction to sin is not something we are born with, rather it is something that grows. The word nature in the Greek is Phusis and it literally means "Growth." The same word is used in both Romans 2 and Ephesians 2 in reference to conduct resulting from nature. In Romans 2 there are people who "do by nature the things in the law" and in Ephesians 2 there are those "who do by nature" wickedness.
We are not born wicked. If we are born wicked and sin is simply a natural offshoot of this wickedness then ultimately we are not responsible for our wickedness. Thus if someone approaches God in this manner it is simply impossible to be truly sorry for sin because in the mind they will be blaming their flesh and not the choices they made in regards how they chose to yield their flesh.
Sin is a result of yielding to the passions and desires of the flesh exactly as James describes. Sinners freely choose to do this, they are not compelled by some inner wickedness that they were born with. Original Sin actually puts the blame of sin on God.
If sin is some sort of substance that indwells the flesh then it cannot be repented of anymore than a black or white person can repent of their race. Thus the sinner just "admits their sinfulness" as opposed to confessing their CHOICE to be sinful.
Sin is a moral choice. Sin is not a disease.
False Christianity treats sin as a disease and presents the Gospel as the cure. The Bible treats sin as a crime and it present the Gospel as the method one can be reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ despite their PAST criminal actions. It is a very big difference.
We would need a saviour whether Original Sin was true or not. Once a sin is committed condemnation is wrought and there is nothing a sinner can do to undo what has already been done. That is why mankind needs a saviour. Men are criminals who have committed a crimes and returning to obedience does not expunge the previous criminal record.
Jesus is needed by all people for two major reasons. Jesus is the source of all light and thus without Him we would be stumbling around in the dark. Secondly, without the shedding of blood there would be no remission of sin. Without the death of Jesus on the cross men could not have their past rebellion washed away through the forbearance of God.
No it doesn't. Sinners have been defiled by sin and are held in bondage to sin. Thus they need redemption. They need to be set free from bondage and they also need to be released from the condemnation that hangs over their heads.
Yet the condemnation of sinners is wrought through the sinners having CHOSEN to sin. They were not born condemned and in bondage. That is the error. Original Sin puts the blame on birth instead of choice. Thus again, sin is redefined to be a sickness instead of a criminal act.
The Bible clearly teaches that we sold ourselves for nought and that we are redeemed without money.
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
One cannot sell themselves for nought if they are "born already sold."
Likewise Paul teaches in Romans 7 that he was alive before the law came. Sin revived only when he had the knowledge of right and wrong and when he chose to do wrong he died.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Likewise with Adam, the sinning of eating the forbidden fruit slew him because it was a direct violation of a command of God. He did it willingly. Choice is always involved.
We are not born dead or in bondage to sin. This is because sin is involved choice. Babies are born subject to the passions and desires of the flesh IN IGNORANCE. They cannot sin for sin is not doing right when you KNOW right (Jam 4:17) and sin is transgression (1Joh 3:4).
A little baby is neither righteous nor unrighteous. They are neutral and ignorant. They are subject to the natural passions of the flesh which are not evil in and of themselves. It is only evil when we choose to gratify the passions and desires of the flesh in a selfish manner when we know it is selfish. A baby crying or having a tantrum when they are hungry or don't get what they want is done in pure ignorance. They have no concept whatsoever of good or evil and thus they cannot sin. They are still alive for they have not rejected the light yet.
Original Sin teaches we are born dead. Original Sin teaches we are born condemned already. Original Sin teaches that actual sin is necessitated by the nature one is born with. Original Sin teaches that man cannot forsake that which his birth nature forces him to do. Thus there repentance is completely neutralised.
Satan knows how important repentance is and he has been able to completely pervert it through Augustine introducing the doctrine of Original Sin.
Why did not the church teach Original Sin before Augustine?
Why did the church NEVER use Romans 7 as an example of the present Christian walk before Augustine?
Why did the church NEVER teach that "being crucified with Christ" was positional in application?
These things were never taught in the early church yet if you oppose them today you are deemed a heretic by the religious establishment.
That is a very fallacious statement and yet I have to keep addressing it. The denial of Original Sin seems to imply to people that they would not need Jesus and that they could be righteous on their own. Nothing could be further from the truth. Such are the strongholds of the mind that keep people in bondage to error.
God is the source of righteousness in an individual in the same way that a light globe needs a source of electricity. True righteousness is through abiding/walking in the light of God. This is why Jesus taught that without Him we can do nothing. Jesus is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. We have to abide in that light in order to manifest the righteousness of God. We cannot do it on our own.
Also the denial of Original Sin in no way implies men do not need the Saviour. If you have sinned then you need to be both set free from the condemnation wrought by that sin as well as set free from the bondage that sin brings. We cannot set ourselves free from either. Only through the shed blood of Jesus Christ and through abiding in His word can it happen.
Wrong. The flesh itself brings temptation to sin due to the natural passions and desires. So whether one has a good upbringing or not is irrelevant. Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden and "it was good." Yet Eve succumbed to the passions and desires of her flesh (Gen 3:6) due to having her ears tickled by Satan.
Being "saved has to do with being "saved from something." One is not born needing to be "saved from sin" because they have not sold themselves into bondage or fallen under condemnation yet. They still need Jesus to be righteous though. Yet, there is no real doubt in my mind that all do choose to sin mainly due to a lack of an understanding of the full consequences of such an action. Remember we are not born righteous possessing a pure heart of unconditional love, we are a blank slate. Thus the choice to sin is not really seen as a big deal the first time we do it. No wonder all have sinned.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 51:5 does not say that sin was born in David. It says he was shapen in inqiuity, that in sin did his mother conceive him. Either David is saying that he was born into a sinful world (most likely I think) or that his conception was the result of fornication. Nonetheless he most definitely is not teaching that sin was born in him.
I was born in a hospital, a hospital was not born in me. Big difference.
How come Judaism does not use Psalm 51:5 to teach Original Sin? Judaism denies such an absurd doctrine because they know sin is a choice.
It is only professing Christianity since Augustine which teaches such a thing.
Psalm 51:5 does not say that sin was born in David. It says he was shapen in inqiuity, that in sin did his mother conceive him. Either David is saying that he was born into a sinful world (most likely I think) or that his conception was the result of fornication. Nonetheless he most definitely is not teaching that sin was born in him.
I was born in a hospital, a hospital was not born in me. Big difference.
How come Judaism does not use Psalm 51:5 to teach Original Sin? Judaism denies such an absurd doctrine because they know sin is a choice.
It is only professing Christianity since Augustine which teaches such a thing.
get your stories straight skinski.....you're slick
i'm watching you tweak your doctrine....you're dangerous. but not invisible.
well, i have to go shopping. but when i get back, KIDS! it's......
StoryTime with Skinski.
Chapter 1:
perfection, purity and sinlessness before salvation.
(dontcha just hate that the internet is forever?)
i'm watching you tweak your doctrine....you're dangerous. but not invisible.
well, i have to go shopping. but when i get back, KIDS! it's......
StoryTime with Skinski.
Chapter 1:
perfection, purity and sinlessness before salvation.
(dontcha just hate that the internet is forever?)