(Jesuit) Preterism versus John 14

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Aug 3, 2019
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#81
The rich man and Lazarus is not a parable.

Also hell was adjacent to paradise.
It is full of parabolic language - it is a parable. Also, Paradise is UP...it is where the Tree of Life is, which is where the River of Life is, which flows from the throne of God. If hell is adjacent to Paradise as you say, that would put hell up there by God's throne....which, of course, it is not, right or wrong?
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#82
It's just a biblical principle that nakedness is not a good thing, we as believers are never naked. But that's really not the point I'm trying to make. Take a look at what 2 Corinthians says.

(2Co 5:4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

When is mortality swallowed up?
Again, why would Paul have to elaborate about something that, if you are correct, would NEVER cross their minds?

"Hey, I'm hungry, but I don't want deadly poison, I want edible food".

Would you ever say somethings so asinine? Of course not. Likewise, the only way Paul's statement is not equally asinine is if "unclothed/naked" must be something familiar to and not immediately dismissed by the people which would make Paul's elaboration on the matter reasonable. It refers to being without a body in the grave, exactly where Job said he, and the rest of us, would wait for the coming of the Lord.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#83
Here is what I wrote in my posting # 13. In it is the journey of Jesus which, for some unknown reason, you refuse to acknowledge.



I think our conversation is over.
Yes, as long as you continue to operate from the flawed premise that the dead know things, have emotions, lay plans, etc. when the wisest man to ever live says plainly, "The dead know NOT anything" and that those other things perish at death, you will continue to misinterpret Scripture to support the false idea of innate immortality of humans.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#84
Here is what I wrote in my posting # 13. In it is the journey of Jesus which, for some unknown reason, you refuse to acknowledge.



I think our conversation is over.
Why do you insist that Jesus' descension into the Earth means He went to a place where dead people are conscious called "Hades"? "Hades" means "place of the dead" and also "grave".

The "place of the dead" is known as a "graveyard", right or wrong?
Did not Jesus "descend" into the "heart of the Earth" when He was buried in the tomb?

In His humanity, Jesus was NOT conscious in death -- He feel asleep. Do people who are sleeping know what's going on around them? Try talking to someone who is asleep. Will they hear you? Does not Solomon, whose wisdom you refuse to acknowledge, say the "dead know not anything"?
Also, Jesus' "ascension/descension" has NOTHING to do with the fact that He was very much on Earth when He said He was "in heaven".

Also, Jesus plainly says "My kingdom is NOT of this world" and that is because when New Jerusalem descends after the 1,000 years and the wicked are resurrected, judged, and destroyed, God is going to make a "new heaven and a new earth", and it is AT THAT TIME when His kingdom will be of THIS world, the world made new, NOT THE WORLD THAT IS NOW.

Jesuit Preterism refuses to acknowledge that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, refuses to acknowledge the wisdom of Solomon who said it is impossible for dead people to hear a sermon on the Gospel, engages in the twisting of Scripture to suit its unfounded claims, and ignores the far more acceptable interpretation of Protestant Historicism.

Why do you support Jesuit theology if you are a Protestant? Why do you reject Protestant theology which BURIED both Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism way back in the 16th century and was universally preached and taught from every Protestant pulpit until just around 100 years ago when misguided Protestants like yourself began resurrecting both false Jesuit ideas? Why do you accept Jesuit ideas about prophecy, which is the complicated, intricate "meat" of the Word, when they can't even get right the most basic milk of the Word, which is salvation by grace through faith???
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#85
Did not Jesus "descend" into the "heart of the Earth" when He was buried in the tomb?
Nope - sorry - not buying it. I am not inclined to think that a "ground-level" tomb can properly be considered to be in the "heart of the Earth" - not physically or in any other way...
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#86
It is full of parabolic language - it is a parable. Also, Paradise is UP...it is where the Tree of Life is, which is where the River of Life is, which flows from the throne of God. If hell is adjacent to Paradise as you say, that would put hell up there by God's throne....which, of course, it is not, right or wrong?
That why we know paradise is not in heaven.

The rich man and Lazarus uses specifics.

Parables use types,or illustrations.

For example, the parable of the sower is explained in detail with every component being a pointer. (Not real)

In the rich<> lazarus ....nothing needs explaination.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#87
That why we know paradise is not in heaven.

The rich man and Lazarus uses specifics.

Parables use types,or illustrations.

For example, the parable of the sower is explained in detail with every component being a pointer. (Not real)

In the rich<> lazarus ....nothing needs explaination.

Sure it does .In that series of parables God uses money to represent those who have another teaching authority other than all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) .No man can serve two teaching masters.

The parable uses the Rich man to represent those like Saul false riches false gospel who was cut of from all communication from God . Called necromancy.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#88
Nope - sorry - not buying it. I am not inclined to think that a "ground-level" tomb can properly be considered to be in the "heart of the Earth" - not physically or in any other way...
Is not a tomb a dug out side of a mountain, and is not a mountain part of the Earth? Of course. Aside from that, please believe Solomon who said "The dead know not anything." And, please believe Moses who wrote in Genesis 2:7 where it says the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.

How ludicrous an idea it is to insist that at the disunion of these two, the Soul continues to exist. A light bulb (body) that has electric current running through it (Breath of Life) produces light (Soul). When you switch off a lamp, does the light continue shining or does it CEASE TO BE???
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#89
That why we know paradise is not in heaven.
I'm going to drop a 10 Megaton Truth Bomb and the collateral damage is going to be devastating, so please take cover....

Q. What is in Paradise?
A. "To him, that overcometh, I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the PARADISE of my God ..." -- Revelation 2:7 KJV

Q. Where does the Tree of Life stand?
A. "And...on either side of the River (of Life), was there the Tree of Life." -- Revelation 22:2 KJV

Q. From where does the River of Life flow?
A. "And he showed me a pure River of Water of Life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the THRONE OF GOD...." -- Revelation 22:1 KJV

Please, let's all stop with this silliness about Paradise being down somewhere under the Earth. PARADISE IS UP, NOT DOWN, and neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that Friday. The comma is in the WRONG place. The text should read, "I say unto you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." IOW, "I say unto you today while I'm hanging here looking like anything but the Savior of the world, you will be with Me in Paradise."
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#90
Is not a tomb a dug out side of a mountain, and is not a mountain part of the Earth? Of course.
Boy, are you reaching... :rolleyes:

Uh - no - this does not come anywhere close to anything that may be considered to be the "heart of the earth"...

Aside from that, please believe Solomon who said "The dead know not anything."
Context. Context. Context.

You are misinterpreting the verse in view of the whole chapter - which is not about the soul/spirit - rather, it is about the physical life. The statement that "but the dead know not any thing" is being used to illustrate that "when [this physical] life is over, opportunity is gone; therefore, make the best of it while you have it"; it is not referring to the state of existence of the soul apart from the body after death.

And, please believe Moses who wrote in Genesis 2:7 where it says the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.
The Breath of Life happened once at Adam and carries down through humanity to everyone. It is a 'mechanism' that God put into place.

The soul comes from God.

Why do you think that "comes into existence" at the point of [physical] life necessarily means "must go out of existence" at the point of [physical] death?

How ludicrous an idea it is to insist that at the disunion of these two, the Soul continues to exist. A light bulb (body) that has electric current running through it (Breath of Life) produces light (Soul). When you switch off a lamp, does the light continue shining or does it CEASE TO BE???
A bad example.

A more true-to-reality example:

A battery ('life' force) is placed into a flashlight. It works. (it "lives")

Later, the battery is removed. The flashlight stops working. (it "dies")

The battery still exists; albeit, it is no longer in the flashlight.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#91
I'm going to drop a 10 Megaton Truth Bomb and the collateral damage is going to be devastating, so please take cover....

Q. What is in Paradise?
A. "To him, that overcometh, I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the PARADISE of my God ..." -- Revelation 2:7 KJV

Q. Where does the Tree of Life stand?
A. "And...on either side of the River (of Life), was there the Tree of Life." -- Revelation 22:2 KJV

Q. From where does the River of Life flow?
A. "And he showed me a pure River of Water of Life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the THRONE OF GOD...." -- Revelation 22:1 KJV

Please, let's all stop with this silliness about Paradise being down somewhere under the Earth. PARADISE IS UP, NOT DOWN, and neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that Friday. The comma is in the WRONG place. The text should read, "I say unto you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." IOW, "I say unto you today while I'm hanging here looking like anything but the Savior of the world, you will be with Me in Paradise."
A 10 Megaton dud... :p ;)

You are "over-defining" the word 'paradise'. It has a non-specific meaning - "a place of bliss", essentially. The word 'paradise' is in scripture in three places - and, in each place, "where paradise is" is different - implied or illustrated by context.


EDIT: Oh - and - the COMMA is not in the wrong place. :)
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#92
Is not a tomb a dug out side of a mountain, and is not a mountain part of the Earth? Of course. Aside from that, please believe Solomon who said "The dead know not anything." And, please believe Moses who wrote in Genesis 2:7 where it says the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.

How ludicrous an idea it is to insist that at the disunion of these two, the Soul continues to exist. A light bulb (body) that has electric current running through it (Breath of Life) produces light (Soul). When you switch off a lamp, does the light continue shining or does it CEASE TO BE???
7th Day Adventism Ellen G. Whites (Soul Sleep) is a false teaching.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#93
7th Day Adventism Ellen G. Whites (Soul Sleep) is a false teaching.
Such ignorance. You attribute the teaching that at death, souls sleep and await the resurrection to Ellen White because you are so bankrupt of facts, Biblical knowledge, and reasonable argument that your ONLY weapon in the arena of ideas is insult. DR. MARTIN LUTHER, AMONG MANY MANY OTHERS, TAUGHT THIS CENTURIES BEFORE THE ADVENTIST MOVEMENT.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#94
A 10 Megaton dud... :p ;)

You are "over-defining" the word 'paradise'. It has a non-specific meaning - "a place of bliss", essentially. The word 'paradise' is in scripture in three places - and, in each place, "where paradise is" is different - implied or illustrated by context.


EDIT: Oh - and - the COMMA is not in the wrong place. :)
Again with much commentary, but not a shred of Bible to back it up, brother :) C'mon, do you really think that subterranean chamber of imprisoned "souls" that you claim is "paradise" can be considered a "place of bliss" for those trapped their since the death of Adam and his posterity? :rolleyes:

And, yes, the comma is INDEED in the wrong place, because it makes Jesus a liar on Sunday morning when He said, "...I have not yet ascended to the Father". The reason He had not yet ascended was because He was dead in the tomb.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#95
Such ignorance. You attribute the teaching that at death, souls sleep and await the resurrection to Ellen White because you are so bankrupt of facts, Biblical knowledge, and reasonable argument that your ONLY weapon in the arena of ideas is insult. DR. MARTIN LUTHER, AMONG MANY MANY OTHERS, TAUGHT THIS CENTURIES BEFORE THE ADVENTIST MOVEMENT.
Once again, Ellen G. White, the false Prophetess taught and promoted the false teachings of (Soul Sleep)

Adventist also deny a literal hell fire in torment, just like the JW'S

7th day Adventism is a cult itself, Ellen G. White leading the deceived through 2,000 self proclaimed visions from God.

Ellen claimed to have her 1st vision after the failed claim of the 2nd coming of Jesus in 1844, with her self proclaimed (Investigative Judgement)

Make a false prediction that Jesus Christ returns on Oct 22, 1844, when it fails we have the false prophetess in a self proclaimed vision, of the (Investigative Judgement)

And you and many others believe these lies (n)
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#96
A 10 Megaton dud... :p ;)

You are "over-defining" the word 'paradise'. It has a non-specific meaning - "a place of bliss", essentially. The word 'paradise' is in scripture in three places - and, in each place, "where paradise is" is different - implied or illustrated by context.


EDIT: Oh - and - the COMMA is not in the wrong place. :)
Plus the ones in paradise could see the ones in hell and speak to them.

It could not possibly be heaven
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#97
Plus the ones in paradise could see the ones in hell and speak to them.

It could not possibly be heaven
You really can't say (Abraham's Bosom) isn't heaven, it appears those that died in faith are comforted, and in the spiritual that would be with the Lord.

Luke 16:19-31KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
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#98
It is full of parabolic language - it is a parable. Also, Paradise is UP...it is where the Tree of Life is, which is where the River of Life is, which flows from the throne of God. If hell is adjacent to Paradise as you say, that would put hell up there by God's throne....which, of course, it is not, right or wrong?
You act as if God has a special place above isolated for a 6'4" man, big smiles!

The rich man was actually lived in this world, Lazarus also lived in this world.

The story is a historical fact, showing those that die in faith, and those that die in sin.

Hell is a (Literal) place of torment currently, a place that you a 7th day Adventist and JWS (Deny) hell in the future judgement will be thrown into the lake of fire, the second death.

Isaiah 66:1KJV
66 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#99
We must be careful how we hear what the Spirit says to the believers. Jesus never used the human touch as evidence in regard to his corrupted flesh which he informs us it profits nothing.

Walking by sight after the corruptible dead things of this world is not walking by faith. . trusting the unseen things of God . .

The touched with the woman was the kind where virtue goes out. Not until he wedding supper when he will share his new wine with his bride in her new wine skin.

The other example like that with doubting Thomas touching has to do with Christ teaching them not to be faithless and doubt but rather believe. exercise the faith that works from within. He never encouraged worshiping God not seen by the temporal things seen.

Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

In other words. . .wait until you receive your new incorruptible body. Don't touch my clothes before the ceremony . You might wrinkle them .
I'm afraid you are way off brother. Jesus, born of the Holy Spirit and not via Adam, did not have corruptible flesh. Even in the grave He saw no corruption. Acts 2:27-32:

27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
....
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses."
 
Jun 11, 2020
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Why do you insist that Jesus' descension into the Earth means He went to a place where dead people are conscious called "Hades"? "Hades" means "place of the dead" and also "grave".

The "place of the dead" is known as a "graveyard", right or wrong?
Did not Jesus "descend" into the "heart of the Earth" when He was buried in the tomb?

In His humanity, Jesus was NOT conscious in death -- He feel asleep. Do people who are sleeping know what's going on around them? Try talking to someone who is asleep. Will they hear you? Does not Solomon, whose wisdom you refuse to acknowledge, say the "dead know not anything"?
Also, Jesus' "ascension/descension" has NOTHING to do with the fact that He was very much on Earth when He said He was "in heaven".

Also, Jesus plainly says "My kingdom is NOT of this world" and that is because when New Jerusalem descends after the 1,000 years and the wicked are resurrected, judged, and destroyed, God is going to make a "new heaven and a new earth", and it is AT THAT TIME when His kingdom will be of THIS world, the world made new, NOT THE WORLD THAT IS NOW.

Jesuit Preterism refuses to acknowledge that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, refuses to acknowledge the wisdom of Solomon who said it is impossible for dead people to hear a sermon on the Gospel, engages in the twisting of Scripture to suit its unfounded claims, and ignores the far more acceptable interpretation of Protestant Historicism.

Why do you support Jesuit theology if you are a Protestant? Why do you reject Protestant theology which BURIED both Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism way back in the 16th century and was universally preached and taught from every Protestant pulpit until just around 100 years ago when misguided Protestants like yourself began resurrecting both false Jesuit ideas? Why do you accept Jesuit ideas about prophecy, which is the complicated, intricate "meat" of the Word, when they can't even get right the most basic milk of the Word, which is salvation by grace through faith???
Thank you for the exchange. God bless.