JESUITS ZIONISTS & CHRISTIAN DISPENSATIONALISTS

[eternally-gratefull]

Was the coming of Elijah, to proceed Christ, literally fulfilled?

Beyond that, yes, all of the prophecies can be literally fulfilled, and yet our focus is to be on the spiritual application.

Matthew 17:11
Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.

Matthew 17:12
But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.”

what spiritual application? there is non, that is not what prophesy was intended to do.

God prophesied Isreal would reject God, be scattered, their city and sanctuary be destroyed.. did this come true? yes. what spiritual application is there? Non.

God also said, that these same people will be re awoken, taken from all the nations from whence they were sent because of their sin, and restored to their land at his return.

so we take a literal interpretation of the first part. yet symbolize the second part? just so we can make it come true to us today?

may it not be so. that is destroying the meaning, purpose and design of prophetic utterance, and makes a mockery of God.

 

[crossnote]

Why do you think that understanding the symbol somehow makes us reject the literal? That's not how Christ viewed things. They can be both a symbol, AND literal. Look at the Tabernacle. It REALLY existed, but was also FULLY symbolic.
It's about focus, not rejection.

If you read the minor prophets, and think "this is not for me, but for the Jews", then your focus is off.
If you read the Law and think "I don't have to literally do these things anymore, therefore this is not for me", then your focus is off.

"I will scatter. ..I will regather"...is not allegory. Allegory opens up Scripture to myriads of fanciful interpretations and has been used to justify all kinds of social evils in God's name.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"I will scatter. ..I will regather"...is not allegory. Allegory opens up Scripture to myriads of fanciful interpretations and has been used to justify all kinds of social evils in God's name.

Amen!

If the scattering was literally fulfilled.

then the regathering must literally be fulfilled also.

We interpret the whole of prophesy the same way, otherwise prophesy loses its meaning, and we can make God say anything we want.

 

[michael56]

Those led of the theological mind use the allegories, those led of the spirit accepts the prophecies

 

[crossnote]

Those led of the theological mind use the allegories, those led of the spirit accepts the prophecies

There's lots of truth there. Over allegorization has led to the liberalization and then to the deadness of Churches.
It's the enemies way of diluting the truths of Scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There's lots of truth there. Over allegorization has led to the liberalization and then to the deadness of Churches.
It's the enemies way of diluting the truths of Scripture.

I agree, we can make scripture say whatever we want it to say, and no one can prove us wrong.

 

[kaylagrl]

"I will scatter. ..I will regather"...is not allegory. Allegory opens up Scripture to myriads of fanciful interpretations and has been used to justify all kinds of social evils in God's name.

Exactly,that is where this misunderstanding came from.For the most part the Bible is literal.When allegorical interpretation is used you get replacement/covenant theology.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Home | True Torah Jews

the ironic part about this is that these so called 'true torah jews' are actually members of the most anti christian jewish sect there is...they are called haredi or sometimes 'ultra orthodox' jews...they are obsessively adherent to the talmud and to the same rabbinic traditions jesus condemned...and when you see churches being vandalized in israel it is usually by these haredi sects...

their actual reasoning for being against zionism is that they believe...like the lost jews of jesus' time...that the messiah will reestablish israel as a state...and that -only- the messiah is allowed to do that...and since like their pharisaical predecessors they reject jesus as messiah...they believe that the modern establishment of israel is not 'kosher'...

this is the really ironic thing about many anti zionists...they constantly condemn zionism as some kind of heretical anti christian movement...yet they are willing to associate themselves with -any- heresy or anti christian teaching as long as that teaching opposes zionism...

 

[Sophia]

There's lots of truth there. Over allegorization has led to the liberalization and then to the deadness of Churches.
It's the enemies way of diluting the truths of Scripture.

I have to agree with you on that. Over-alligorization is the very center of liberalism, and the very essence of the teachings of the Saduccees.
Unlike the Saduccees and liberals, what I am talking about is seeing the Prophets through the Spirit rather than the Letter. This includes "allegory", but is not taking the meaning from the physical mind, but from what is revealed already in the Word, and applying it.

 

[Sophia]

There is a place between the valleys of liberalism and legalism, which are the Saducees and the Pharisees: the allegorical and the literal.
This place is the very mountain of the Word.
It is not to be interpreted by the Letter (grammatical) but by the Spirit.

 

[tribesman]

There is a place between the valleys of liberalism and legalism, which are the Saducees and the Pharisees: the allegorical and the literal.
This place is the very mountain of the Word.
It is not to be interpreted by the Letter (grammatical) but by the Spirit.

As for the sects of non-messianic judaism, the two far least worse would imo be the essenes and later on the karaites.

 

[tribesman]

the ironic part about this is that these so called 'true torah jews' are actually members of the most anti christian jewish sect there is...they are called haredi or sometimes 'ultra orthodox' jews...they are obsessively adherent to the talmud and to the same rabbinic traditions jesus condemned...and when you see churches being vandalized in israel it is usually by these haredi sects...

their actual reasoning for being against zionism is that they believe...like the lost jews of jesus' time...that the messiah will reestablish israel as a state...and that -only- the messiah is allowed to do that...and since like their pharisaical predecessors they reject jesus as messiah...they believe that the modern establishment of israel is not 'kosher'...

this is the really ironic thing about many anti zionists...they constantly condemn zionism as some kind of heretical anti christian movement...yet they are willing to associate themselves with -any- heresy or anti christian teaching as long as that teaching opposes zionism...

A well needed and balanced input in this topic.

 

[Sophia]

The temple was not a prophesy, and we are told it was symbolic. thus not a good example, for it does not fit.

Lets look at prophesy. and just pick a few.

1. Jesus born of a virgin in Bethlehem (literally fulfilled)
2. Will perform miracles. the sick will be healed, dead will rise, blind sea, deaf hear (literally fulfilled)
3. Will sufer a painful death, and be risen again. (literally fulfilled)
4. Will come after the 69 weeks of daniels prophesy (literally fulfilled)
5. will be cut off (killed (literally fulfilled)
6. Will be introduced on a donkey (literally fulfilled)
7. will be Despised and rejected by his own people (literally fulfilled)
8. Salvation will come to the gentiles (literally fulfilled)
9. His people will rebel, Be cut off. Their city and temple destroyed, and they will be scatted to all ends of the earth (literally fulfilled)

so if all these things are literally fulfilled (I have just touched the surface of literal fulfilments there are many more)

why would the rest of what God say not be literally fulfilled? Did God change how he does things? is he not the same yesterday today and tomorrow?

The Temple certainly was prophecy. How can you deny it's revelation to mankind of God?

 

[KJV1611]

Romans 9:8 says that physical Israel is not the inheritance seed, the spiritual Israel is. Why would anyone think otherwise?

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[kaylagrl]

Romans 9:8 says that physical Israel is not the inheritance seed, the spiritual Israel is. Why would anyone think otherwise?

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

We have spoken of this before,Romans 11. Very clear.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Temple certainly was prophecy. How can you deny it's revelation to mankind of God?

Prophesy is a fortelling of future events.

Symbology is using a physical thing to represent a spiritual truth.

The temple is not prophesy. It is symbology.

a vastly different thing.

 

[KJV1611]

We have spoken of this before,Romans 11. Very clear.

Romans 11 says that there is a remnant of physical Jews that will saved and become spiritual Jews. That doesn't counter 9:8. Those spiritual Israel Jews will inherit the promises along with us.

 

[kaylagrl]

Romans 11 says that there is a remnant of physical Jews that will saved and become spiritual Jews. That doesn't counter 9:8. Those spiritual Israel Jews will inherit the promises along with us.

The OT verses have already been posted on other threads.It is clear that Israel is that nation born in a day.It is very clear God will bring them back from the countries they were scattered to and give them Israel.You'd have to ignore entire books of the OT to say the creation of Israel is not by the hand of God.Please read the OP.

 

[KJV1611]

The OT verses have already been posted on other threads.It is clear that Israel is that nation born in a day.It is very clear God will bring them back from the countries they were scattered to and give them Israel.You'd have to ignore entire books of the OT to say the creation of Israel is not by the hand of God.Please read the OP.

You have to ignore Romans 9 and 11 to say what you just said. Since physical Israel has existed, there has always been physical Israel and spiritual Israel. Some parts of the OT talk about physical Israel and some talk about spiritual Israel... but the bible doesn't put physical or spiritual in front of Israel, you have to figure it our for yourself.

If physical Israel inherits the promises given to Abraham then Paul lied in Romans 9:8

 

[kaylagrl]

You have to ignore Romans 9 and 11 to say what you just said. Since physical Israel has existed, there has always been physical Israel and spiritual Israel. Some parts of the OT talk about physical Israel and some talk about spiritual Israel... but the bible doesn't put physical or spiritual in front of Israel, you have to figure it our for yourself.

If physical Israel inherits the promises given to Abraham then Paul lied in Romans 9:8

[h=1]Ezekiel 36:24-28New International Version (NIV)[/h]24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.



[h=1]Ezekiel 37-The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”[/h]I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”
4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am theLord.’”
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four windsand breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.
11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord,when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”


15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
18 “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding,[b] and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.