Jesus and Nicodemus

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arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
771
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#21
When Jesus speaks with Nicodemus about being born again, John 3-7, I believe that Jesus is speaking about being baptized, reborn into the family of God, as a child of God. To put the story of Nicodemus in prospective look at the Bible as a whole. Jesus is speaking of being reborn of the water and the Spirit and the very next passage in the Gospel of John has Jesus and the Apostles going out and baptizing. John 3:22, Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people. And Jesus taught His disciples to baptize in the name of the Spirit; Jesus taught that His disciples were to baptize others in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ( Matthew 28:19 ).

Did Jesus think baptism was important, I think so. In the last chapter of Mark, 16:16 Jesus makes his thoughts on baptism clear.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

From the above logic, I believe that Jesus was talking about being reborn again, of water and the Spirit, in reference to baptism which is a rebirth into the family of God.
 
O

Omegatime

Guest
#22
I am puzzled, you probably profess to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, the belief that Scripture is the sole authority of God, God's word. But then you want to site both Luther and Calvin as your authority also. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Furthermore, Luther and Calvin didn't even agree with each other on important Christian issues/beliefs.
I believe jaumej said it best. Please, why are you puzzled? Just because a person is aware of Luther and others historically does not translate as being a disciple.
 
O

Omegatime

Guest
#23
The real question is "how does one enter the kingdom of God". Yes, the kingdom of God is sealed within us by the Holy Spirit when we become believers but we are not living in the times of the Lord's kingdom. Have you not read flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God?? Do you believe you are living in a spiritual indestructible body at the present time????????

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,688
13,140
113
#24
When Jesus speaks with Nicodemus about being born again, John 3-7, I believe that Jesus is speaking about being baptized, reborn into the family of God, as a child of God. To put the story of Nicodemus in prospective look at the Bible as a whole. Jesus is speaking of being reborn of the water and the Spirit and the very next passage in the Gospel of John has Jesus and the Apostles going out and baptizing. John 3:22, Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people. And Jesus taught His disciples to baptize in the name of the Spirit; Jesus taught that His disciples were to baptize others in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ( Matthew 28:19 ).

Did Jesus think baptism was important, I think so. In the last chapter of Mark, 16:16 Jesus makes his thoughts on baptism clear.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

From the above logic, I believe that Jesus was talking about being reborn again, of water and the Spirit, in reference to baptism which is a rebirth into the family of God.
Being born of water is a Jewish expression for physical birth.

by saying to Nicodemus that a man must be born of water and of spirit, Jesus is saying we must be born again - that physical birth ((e.g. having been born as a Jew, by water)) is not sufficient to enter His Kingdom. we must be born again by spirit.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,688
13,140
113
#25
Being born of water is a Jewish expression for physical birth.

by saying to Nicodemus that a man must be born of water and of spirit, Jesus is saying we must be born again - that physical birth ((e.g. having been born as a Jew, by water)) is not sufficient to enter His Kingdom. we must be born again by spirit.
Nicodemus is following this conversation, but many people today are not.
Jesus says he must be born again.
Nicodemus assumes that by saying 'born again' Jesus is talking about a physical birth or one of the 6 things in Judaism called 'rebirth' - see my post on page 1 - so he asks hyperbolically if he's supposed to crawl back into his mother's womb??
Jesus responds by saying not only of water ((physical birth)) but of spirit. Jesus mentions the spirit again and again but never brings up water again to Nicodemus. Jesus isn't talking about baptism. Jesus is talking about the Spirit.
the Jews believed they would inherit the kingdom because they were descended from Abraham through Isaac. they believed their ethnic identity was sufficient, because they are God's chosen people.
Jesus is countermanding that idea. He will only save a remnant, and He will cast out the wicked from among His people: being Jewish does not guarantee salvation.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
4,947
2,871
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#26
you need to understand that 'born again' is not an alien concept to Nicodemus.
in Judaism there are at least 6 different things called being 'born again'


  • a Gentile converting to Judaism
  • a bar mitvah
  • being crowned king
  • being married
  • becoming a rabbi
  • becoming head of a rabbinic school

Nicodemus doesn't just ask, how can a person become born again? -- he is familiar with the concept. he is a very, very learned man and very, very intelligent & wise.
he asks, how can a man be born again when he is old?



Nicodemus isn't a Gentile.
Nicodemus has already had his bar mitvah.
Nicodemus cannot be made king. he's a Levite.
Nicodemus is very likely already married.
Nicodemus is already a rabbi.
Nicodemus is very likely already head of a rabbinic school, or at the least considered to be at such a level.


he knows that Jesus is talking about something else; something he doesn't know about. that's why he has come to Jesus in the first place, to be taught by Him: he calls Him 'rabbi' and this is a term of intellectual respect; he from the moment he met Him is bowing to Jesus in terms of knowledge and understanding. he is coming to him as tho wishing to be His disciple

his answer, asking shall he climb back into his mother's womb? -- this answer is couched in this context. he's being very Jewish, lol, using hyperbole to indicate his amazement at what Jesus is telling him.

Jesus replies by introducing the Spirit into the conversation. Nicodemus isn't unfamiliar with the Spirit of God -- he is a master of the Torah. he can probably recite the entire OT from memory. but while he has a concept of 'rebirth' in a spiritual sense, and he has a concept of the Spirit of God coming over a person so that he prophesies or is filled with power, he doesn't yet have a concept of being 'reborn' i.e. permanently changed on a fundamental level through the Spirit of God.

should he have? well he certainly could have. it is written in the scripture. Jesus isn't being unfair when he asks "you do not know these things?" -- but what this is showing is that Nicodemus, who represents the pinnacle of human scholarship & understanding of the scripture, was not able to arrive at these things on his own. the Bible is not a book that can be understood without the guidance of God; God must open a person's understanding -- when He does, these things look obvious. but we should not think of ourselves as 'smarter' than others because He has granted us to be able to see! it's the working of God, not of human ability and intelligence.

again, Nicodemus is not stupid -- don't read John 3 as tho he is, or you'll miss what's happening here
I've never thought of Nicodemus as stupid. I've thought if an intelligent person trying to understand a great mystery beyond intellect. I've never heard the idea that Jews thought of bar mitzvah being born again, even from Messianic Jews that I listen to from time to time. I've also never come across anyone who thought that Nicodemus was stupid. Still, I've not met every believer so maybe some do think that.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,688
13,140
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#27
I've never thought of Nicodemus as stupid. I've thought if an intelligent person trying to understand a great mystery beyond intellect. I've never heard the idea that Jews thought of bar mitzvah being born again, even from Messianic Jews that I listen to from time to time. I've also never come across anyone who thought that Nicodemus was stupid. Still, I've not met every believer so maybe some do think that.
here, a Messianic Jewish teaching on Nicodemus that mentions the 6 things called 'new birth' in Judaism:

https://ariel.org.nz/mbs016-nicodemus-a-rabbis-quest/
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,688
13,140
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#28
I've also never come across anyone who thought that Nicodemus was stupid.
i've never met anyone who would be willing to say it so bluntly, but i've met plenty of people who talk about him as though he is.
same with Adam -- almost no one is willing to say "Adam was stupid" but almost everyone talks about him as though he is.

Nicodemus is brilliant; Adam is brilliant

i just wanted to emphasize that Nicodemus is perhaps one of the most intelligent and learned people in the whole nation - so we understand that John 3 is a very special thing, and that the conversation has many layers that aren't spoken.
not because i thought someone was thinking of him lightly, but so we don't miss the fact that John 3 is as deep as it really is.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
771
113
#29
Nicodemus is following this conversation, but many people today are not.
Jesus says he must be born again.
Nicodemus assumes that by saying 'born again' Jesus is talking about a physical birth or one of the 6 things in Judaism called 'rebirth' - see my post on page 1 - so he asks hyperbolically if he's supposed to crawl back into his mother's womb??
Jesus responds by saying not only of water ((physical birth)) but of spirit. Jesus mentions the spirit again and again but never brings up water again to Nicodemus. Jesus isn't talking about baptism. Jesus is talking about the Spirit.
the Jews believed they would inherit the kingdom because they were descended from Abraham through Isaac. they believed their ethnic identity was sufficient, because they are God's chosen people.
Jesus is countermanding that idea. He will only save a remnant, and He will cast out the wicked from among His people: being Jewish does not guarantee salvation.
You say that Jesus isn't talking about Baptism. I strongly disagree. John the Baptist clearly foretells that Jesus will 'Baptize with the Spirit. " Also make no mistake that all Baptism is a ritual performed with water. And when Jesus speaks with Nicodemus there is no reason to assume he is talking about embryotic fluid. All baptism is performed with water.

Mark 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
Luke 3:16 16John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

And, as I said, immediately after Jesus conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus and the Apostles went on a mission of baptizing. John 3:22 Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people. And they were baptizing with water and the Spirit.

Just before Jesus ascended to heaven, He gave His apostles a new commission, and their mission consisted of baptizing with water and the Spirit:

Matthew 28:16-20 16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Water has always been an essential part of baptism.

And the baptisms continued after Jesus ascension, with water and the Spirit: Acts 2:38 On the Day of Pentecost, Peter told the crowd, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). His command concerning baptism was that it be done “in the name of Jesus Christ.”

Baptism continues to this day, 2,000 years later, a baptism of water and the Spirit. Nothing to do with embryotic fluid.

And, it is foolish to believe that Baptism is just a non essential ritual. Just before Jesus ascended to heaven, He told His apostles, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. " Mark 16:16

Does that sound like a non essential ritual to you? And, keep it clear. Jesus was talking about baptism of water and the Spirit.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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#30
i've never met anyone who would be willing to say it so bluntly, but i've met plenty of people who talk about him as though he is.
same with Adam -- almost no one is willing to say "Adam was stupid" but almost everyone talks about him as though he is.
Nicodemus is brilliant; Adam is brilliant


i just wanted to emphasize that Nicodemus is perhaps one of the most intelligent and learned people in the whole nation - so we understand that John 3 is a very special thing, and that the conversation has many layers that aren't spoken.
not because i thought someone was thinking of him lightly, but so we don't miss the fact that John 3 is as deep as it really is.
Nicodemus was the teacher of Israel was he not ?
...xox...
 
Feb 16, 2017
1,037
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#31
When I read the scriptures in John 3, I see no hint of this story being about salvation.
If you read.....>"you must be born again", and do not understand why, or what this causes, and why this is the only reason you go to heaven.... then, that explains why you wrote your confused Thread.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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#32
Nicodemus coming to Jesus in the night time I believe so he would not be seen by the Pharisees ect , but he was really seeking for the truth...
I believe also that maybe the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus probably went on through the night , because Nicodemus even came to the tomb of our Lord with a huge sack of herbs and spices , I mean this was just an abundance of respect for Jesus , so who knows what changed Nicodemus heart , I say he was born again from above , he certainly showed his love for Christ in the end...
...xox...
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
771
113
#33
If you read.....>"you must be born again", and do not understand why, or what this causes, and why this is the only reason you go to heaven.... then, that explains why you wrote your confused Thread.
If you read.....>"you must be born again", and do not understand why, or what this causes, and why this is the only reason you go to heaven.... then, that explains why you wrote your confused Thread.
You say that you see no hint of this being a story of salvation when Jesus explicitly explains that those who aren't born of water and the Spirit shall not enter the Kingdom of God. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
534
259
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#34
I believe this story is all about the resurrection and not when one believes or has anything to do with salvation. Your comments please
The new birth happens to a person prior to physical death; and therefore prior to the resurrection of the body.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (KJV)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again [past tense]
unto a lively hope [the hope is yet to be realized in the future]
by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance [the inheritance is future]
incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, [the hope/inheritance is presently reserved for those who are already born again]
who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

James 1:18 (KJV)
Of his own will begat he us [past tense] with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:21-23 (KJV)
Who by him do believe in God ... being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. [believers are already born again]

1 John 2:29 (KJV)
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. [present tense]

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
Whosoever is born of God [present tense] doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:1 (KJV)
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God [present tense]

1 John 5:18 (KJV)
We know that whosoever is born of God [present tense] not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Col 1:13 (KJV)
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Born again believers are already in the kingdom during this lifetime. In order to enter God's kingdom, you must be born of the Spirit before you die.
 
Feb 16, 2017
1,037
285
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#35
You say that you see no hint of this being a story of salvation when Jesus explicitly explains that those who aren't born of water and the Spirit shall not enter the Kingdom of God. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Listen

everyone who is breathing is born of water.
This happens when your mother's "water breaks" and you the baby are in the WATER SAC.
It breaks, and then the pregnancy is completed, as you are born.
So, there is your FIRST BIRTH "Of" water. or "by" water".

THINK.
You have to be born, to be born again.......so, the 1st Birth is when you are born.
This is not so difficult to understand, is it?

Now, .. Jesus says.....You must be born again........as you have already been born once, arthurfleminger.
But this 2nd Birth is different then the 1st birth, as the 2nd birth is a SPIRITUAL BIRTH = born again spiritually.