Jesus Came To Fulfill Not To Destroy

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#21
This topic comes up from time to time. The OT laws can apply, but they don't necessarily apply to every Christian. Paul covers this topic in some depth. .
I don't believe that ever, at any time, God does not speak truth and that truth is truth for humanity--not for a select few.

The commands of the OT were not changed, the only thing that changed was God's method of delivering the truth. We are not to cut flesh--it was a way to telling humanity to belong to God through the flesh humanity understood. That was the old covenant. It was truth, but now we know the truth through the heart and we are no longer to use earthly commands to learn.

Carefully and prayerfully please read Jeremiah 31:31. It does not say the law is changed, what is changed is how the law is given.

God's truth applies to Christians. We are to accept the Lord.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
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#22
but one can keep the law and not love other people if I don’t kill someone but I also refuse to help them in tbier time of need it’s not love

or if I don’t kill someone but I hate them in my heart it’s not love

if I’d not commit adultery but I do look at others with lust I have violated Gods word in Christ broken his commandment

the law can’t provide righteousness it’s a description of what not to do to people don’t lie to them don’t steal from them don’t cheat then don’t kill them ect

it’s what you tell People that want to do all those things
The law is spiritual.

Even in the ten commandments, God tells us not to steal; and a few commandments later tells us not to even covet.

Since coveting is the inward sin that results in stealing, God is saying something here.

He is hinting at the fact that all of the commandments, which basically speak of outward behaviour, also have an application to the element of indwelling sin.

Jesus spoke of this when He re-defined the law for us in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). He brought many of the commandments; which before were interpreted wrongly as merely being outward requirements, home to the heart. He taught us that the law is actually spiritual; that it applies to the inward motivations and not just to outward behaviour.

When I speak of the law I am referring to all of the moral tenets in the Old and New Testaments, including Jesus' re-definition of the law in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7).

The New Testament speaks of requirements that are not spoken of in the Old; and these requirements stand as law...they define for us what is sin; for by the law is the knowledge of sin; and therefore whatsoever brings the knowledge of sin is law.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,135
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#23
The law is spiritual.

Even in the ten commandments, God tells us not to steal; and a few commandments later tells us not to even covet.

Since coveting is the inward sin that results in stealing, God is saying something here.

He is hinting at the fact that all of the commandments, which basically speak of outward behaviour, also have an application to the element of indwelling sin.

Jesus spoke of this when He re-defined the law for us in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). He brought many of the commandments; which before were interpreted wrongly as merely being outward requirements, home to the heart. He taught us that the law is actually spiritual; that it applies to the inward motivations and not just to outward behaviour.

When I speak of the law I am referring to all of the moral tenets in the Old and New Testaments, including Jesus' re-definition of the law in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7).

The New Testament speaks of requirements that are not spoken of in the Old; and these requirements stand as law...they define for us what is sin; for by the law is the knowledge of sin; and therefore whatsoever brings the knowledge of sin is law.
I think maybe that makes a difference you have defined law your way but what does the scripture mean when it says “the law “ though ?

“When I speak of the law I am referring to all of the moral tenets in the Old and New Testaments, including Jesus' re-definition of the law in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7).”

when your reading scripture and discussing “the law of Moses “ or “ the law “ or the law of sin and death “ it’s a reference to the covenant law of
Made through Moses most often unless the context is saying something else


what I say is why is it different ? Moses allows divorce and remarriage for any reason the man decided both free then to remarry others. Jesus taught the contrary ?

Which morality do we follow Moses or Jesus ? Moses taught “eye for an eye justice tooth for tooth wound for wound justice “ Jesus taught no retaliation , forgive instead of repay wrong for wrong

if you compare what Moses said to do to the children of Israel and what Jesus tells his disciples to do it’s different we can follow Moses word on marriage and divorce and Jesus because the two are different contrary

we can’t follow what Moses said about justice and go eye for eye and also not take revenge like Jesus taught it’s opposite do you see what I mean ?

How can we say it’s the same of Moses said to do something one way and Jesus said no that’s for others but I tell you this other thing to do ? Do we hear Jesus word in the gospel or refer back to what Moses taught in the law ?

even things like swearing an oath to God Moses said one thing Jesus said another different thing “ fulfill The vows you make to the lord “ v “ do not swear an oath by anything under heaven or on earth but just say yes and no anything more is not good “

that’s what I can’t understand about your argument there I agree with you at points but the summary that Jesus retaught Moses law I don’t agree there of course because it’s opposite of the morality Moses taught he taught folks without the Holy Spirit how to pass mustard and restrain thier evil desires until they eventually sinned and died.

the Bible defines Moses law as whatever Moses gave commandment to Israel and wrote in his book all Of it the blessing and curses. Paul makes this point a lot

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭

This is Moses law

“And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.

There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.”
‭‭Joshua‬ ‭8:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s the law of Israel’s covenant which they broke and it curses the earth

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Remember Moses words all are the law all He commanded them in the four books of his life and time exodus , leviticus , numbers , Deuteronomy are like the ots four gospels bekng all
About Moses and the 12 of Israel

whereas the gospel is about Jesus the messiah and the 12 apostles to world. The ot foretells the new but I’ve never understood why it’s opposite commands like that if it’s the same

Christians aren’t commanded “ don’t commit adultery “

they are commanded “ be faithful to your word and spouse and do not harbor wicked fantasy and ideas about lust in your heart”

if we follow the spirit and are filled with what’s right in our head and heart ….we don’t need to be reminded about sin anymore is the thing that’s for people who crave sin the gospel is better and very different
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
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#24
The law remains to condemn those not saved by grace
through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ.


By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one
obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Exactly!

Galatians 3:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
 

Charlie24

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2021
998
270
63
#25
Exactly!

Galatians 3:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Rom. 3:31

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

I would rethink that position, it's not as simple as what meets the eye!
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#26
The law of sin and death is actually the principle spoken of in Romans 7:14-25, esp. v.21, that "when I would do good, evil is present with me."
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,133
29,446
113
#27
Exactly!

Galatians 3:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Galatians 3:22-25
:)
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
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#28
Rom. 3:31

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

I would rethink that position, it's not as simple as what meets the eye!
You don't keep the Law. Why are you preaching it?
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#29
what I say is why is it different ? Moses allows divorce and remarriage for any reason the man decided both free then to remarry others. Jesus taught the contrary ?

Which morality do we follow Moses or Jesus ? Moses taught “eye for an eye justice tooth for tooth wound for wound justice “ Jesus taught no retaliation , forgive instead of repay wrong for wrong

if you compare what Moses said to do to the children of Israel and what Jesus tells his disciples to do it’s different we can follow Moses word on marriage and divorce and Jesus because the two are different contrary

we can’t follow what Moses said about justice and go eye for eye and also not take revenge like Jesus taught it’s opposite do you see what I mean ?
Moses' law was the civil law and it applied to government and laws concerning how government is to treat sinners.

Jesus' law brought that law down home to the heart and His law applies to us on a personal basis. We personally obey Jesus' word apart from government influence; because He is our personal Lord and Saviour; therefore we, in obedience to Him, do more than what the civil law requires.

The civil law requires justice of an "eye for an eye" but Jesus taught us that in our personal lives we are not to utilize this to become vigilantes and exact personal revenge.

The civil law allows divorce because God knows that the hearts of men are hard. But for those of us whose hearts are soft, we follow Jesus' word and do not divorce our wives.

There is therefore a difference between the civil law and the law that God places on the hearts and minds of those who are under the New Covenant.
 

Charlie24

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2021
998
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#30
You don't keep the Law. Why are you preaching it?
There are two ways for man to attempt to keep the Law. I'm speaking here of the moral Law, the Ten Commandments.

One brings the death sentence the other brings life! As Paul has said, the Law (the moral Law) is not made void.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#31
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬
And of course this is speaking of the fact that there is a curse on all those who seek to be justified by the law (see Galatians 5:1-4) in that they are required to obey the law perfectly from conception into eternity if they are going to enter into the kingdom on the basis of works, law-keeping, or personal merit.

But for those who know that they know that they know that they are entering in on the basis of faith in Jesus' blood, the law becomes a blessing rather than a curse (James 1:25).
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#32
Exactly!

Galatians 3:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
This is so true. If we did not have the law telling us what sin is we wouldn't know of our need for Christ.

What I see so many not understanding is that we are to learn from ALL scripture, not just ones that explain this use of the law. The entire psalm 119 explains another use of the law. We are not to wipe Galatians from our scripture, and we are also not wipe 119th Psalm from our scripture.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
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#33
There are two ways for man to attempt to keep the Law. I'm speaking here of the moral Law, the Ten Commandments.

One brings the death sentence the other brings life! As Paul has said, the Law (the moral Law) is not made void.
You're playing word games. You preach the Law but you don't keep the Law! I think Jesus would call that hypocrisy.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
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#34
Christians aren’t commanded “ don’t commit adultery “

they are commanded “ be faithful to your word and spouse and do not harbor wicked fantasy and ideas about lust in your heart”
The latter is the same thing as a command of "don't commit adultery in your heart".
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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#35
I don't know of anyone who obeys the Law of Moses! Nobody.
 

Charlie24

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2021
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#36
You're playing word games. You preach the Law but you don't keep the Law! I think Jesus would call that hypocrisy.
I have spent 95% of my time since I came here explaining this, obviously you haven't been reading.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#37
Exactly!

Galatians 3:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Once we have been trained by a schoolmaster/tutor, we do not need the schoolmaster/tutor anymore because we have been trained by that schoolmaster/tutor to do what it taught us to do.

So, did the schoolmaster/tutor teach us to be disobedient, by showing us that we cannot be anything but disobedient?

I think that such an idea is false doctrine in the slightest.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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#38
Once we have been trained by a schoolmaster/tutor, we do not need the schoolmaster/tutor anymore because we have been trained by that schoolmaster/tutor to do what it taught us to do.

So, did the schoolmaster/tutor teach us to be disobedient, by showing us that we cannot be anything but disobedient?

I think that such an idea is false doctrine in the slightest.
Are you preaching the Law of Moses or Christianity? We Christians have the New Covenant.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
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#39
I don't know of anyone who obeys the Law of Moses! Nobody.
If we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
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#40
If we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).
Are you preaching the Law of Moses or the New Covenant in the Blood of Jesus? Can't be both.