Jesus Came To Fulfill Not To Destroy

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BroTan

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Sep 16, 2021
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Don't be ridiculous.

Inasmuch as I walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (Romans 8:4).

And I am certainly not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)); and therefore I can walk consistently according to the Spirit rather than the flesh for an extended period of time; even for the rest of my life (Luke 1:74-75).
If that's the case you should be keeping the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week as all the prophets, Jesus and apostles kept. Now any Christian in their right mind wouldn’t dare say that it’s okay to steal, kill or commit adultery or break any of the other seven commandments. But when it comes to the fourth commandment, people avoid it like a plague! They are either uninformed about which day is the Sabbath day of the God of the Bible or they are just following the tradition of religion that was passed down through the family or maybe they have let some preacher give them other excuses for ignoring God’s true day of worship.

Sabbath Day of the Lord -God of the Bible. (Gen.2:2-5) (v.2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (v.3) And God blessed the seventh day (every seventh day of the week is a blessed and holy day) and sanctified it (it is a day that is separated (sanctified) for a purpose) because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (v.5) “and there was not a man to till the ground.” There was not a Jew, Catholic, Baptist, or Seventh Day Adventist; in fact, there was not a Christian when He constituted the Sabbath Day!
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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If that's the case you should be keeping the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week as all the prophets, Jesus and apostles kept. Now any Christian in their right mind wouldn’t dare say that it’s okay to steal, kill or commit adultery or break any of the other seven commandments. But when it comes to the fourth commandment, people avoid it like a plague! They are either uninformed about which day is the Sabbath day of the God of the Bible or they are just following the tradition of religion that was passed down through the family or maybe they have let some preacher give them other excuses for ignoring God’s true day of worship.

Sabbath Day of the Lord -God of the Bible. (Gen.2:2-5) (v.2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (v.3) And God blessed the seventh day (every seventh day of the week is a blessed and holy day) and sanctified it (it is a day that is separated (sanctified) for a purpose) because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (v.5) “and there was not a man to till the ground.” There was not a Jew, Catholic, Baptist, or Seventh Day Adventist; in fact, there was not a Christian when He constituted the Sabbath Day!
In Romans 14 we find the reality that one person may esteem one day above another and that that person ought to be fully persuaded in his own mind.

And we are to receive each other; but not to doubtful disputations.

In the same passage we are told that there is a person who esteems every day alike and that he also ought to be fully persuaded in his own mind. The person who does not regard the day, does not regard it, to the Lord.

By all means, @BroTan, believe what you want to believe about the sabbath day.

But I am given a commandment not to allow anyone to judge me as concerning a sabbath day or new moon or concerning what I eat or drink (Colossians 2:16-17).

Any further assertion that one must worship in Saturday in order to be saved will be met with abject silence. I receive you as a brother; but this whole issue is a doubtful disputation.

I suggest that you carefully read through Romans 14 and ask the Holy Spirit what He means by it.

I will say again that:

It should also be clear, that no one can keep the letter of the law (Galatians 6:13); but that we have been delivered from the letter of the law and have been set free to be obedient according to the spirit of what is written (Romans 7:6).
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 5:3, For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4, Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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If that's the case you should be keeping the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week as all the prophets, Jesus and apostles kept. Now any Christian in their right mind wouldn’t dare say that it’s okay to steal, kill or commit adultery or break any of the other seven commandments. But when it comes to the fourth commandment, people avoid it like a plague! They are either uninformed about which day is the Sabbath day of the God of the Bible or they are just following the tradition of religion that was passed down through the family or maybe they have let some preacher give them other excuses for ignoring God’s true day of worship.

Sabbath Day of the Lord -God of the Bible. (Gen.2:2-5) (v.2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (v.3) And God blessed the seventh day (every seventh day of the week is a blessed and holy day) and sanctified it (it is a day that is separated (sanctified) for a purpose) because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (v.5) “and there was not a man to till the ground.” There was not a Jew, Catholic, Baptist, or Seventh Day Adventist; in fact, there was not a Christian when He constituted the Sabbath Day!
Here is another aspect of my response.

I believe that in order to be faithful as a minister, you ought to do as Paul did in the following passage.

1Co 2:1, And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2, For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


You ought to know nothing except Jesus Christ and Him crucified; and that excludes the sabbath as a topic of discussion.
 
Jan 14, 2021
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Now we're getting into some heavy hermeneutics. This is a bit long, so sorry in advance: "Handwriting of ordinances" and "law of commandments contained in ordinances" both refer to the concept known as "bills of debt", which is MOSAIC, NOT MORAL. This is, among several other of articles of reason, proof of the Biblical distinction between the Mosaic Law and the Ten Commandments, which distinction should be easily seen by any Christian willing to be honest: Abraham's seed, of which Christians are according to Galatians 3:29 KJV), are no longer obligated to get circumcised, sacrifice lambs, keep Passover, etc., but it will for all eternity be sin to worship another god, steal, lie, etc. No one has a problem with this until we bring up the Sabbath, which they know full well will be kept for all eternity but for some reason think they can weasel out of keeping it now by virtue of some of the most unBiblical, crafty, legalistic reasoning that would make even the most crooked lawyer grin ear to ear with admiration.
So your position is that the handwriting on the stone tablets is different than the handwriting on the Book of Law? And that the book of law is nailed but not the writing on the stones?

We see this can't be the case in 2 Cor 3:6-8

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" - 2 Cor 3:6-8 KJV

"For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." - Luke 20:38 KJV

And looking deeper, your distinction between circumcision not being a requirement (Leviticus 12) and dietary rules still being a requirement (Leviticus 11) makes no sense. They are part of the same Book of Law.

You're trying to have it both ways: you can't retain "every creature of God is good" but reject "nothing to be refused" because if you refuse a plate of maggots covered in E-coli sauce, you are violating Romans 14:14 KJV, if "every creature" includes every creature.
They don't contradict each other at all.

1 Tim 4:4 says "nothing is to be refuse, if it is received with thanksgiving"

It's a conditional statement. Eat according to faith, that is the bottom line.

But, thankfully, you don't have to worry, because what we are to consume is "sanctified by the word of God" in Leviticus, and pork and shellfish ain't on the menu....as God did from His (labor)". What kind of rest did God take? Literal rest, and according to Hebrews 4:9-10 KJV, those resting spiritually in Jesus inwardly will rest literally and outwardly. Biblical principle and Holy Spirit conviction tells me restoring communications for first responders, telehealth, caregivers, etc., is emergency - however, new service for residential or business profit/leisure is routine. My refusal to perform such work on the Sabbath is what ultimately led to my termination.

Although that is exactly what the text says, right? :rolleyes:
Do you understand the difference between a literal thing, a figurative thing, and a symbolic thing? Your statement here is silly because the direct text seldom explicitly points out which one it is.

No, friend, while there are other arguments to support the NT distinction between cleain and unclean meat, the burden is upon YOU


Do you understand how the burden of proof works? Your comment here is silly because if you want to declare an interpretation is necessarily the only interpretation, the burden is on you to make that case.

You've tried to show that "unclean of itself" in Romans 14:14 proves we can now eat anything that crawls across our plate
Nothing is unclean in itself. You can try to make the case that Roman 14:14's context is only toward that which is ceremonially unclean (common), but Romans 14:14 is just one of many passages that speaks to the concept that any food is permissible if our faith leads us to it and it does not jeopardize other people's faith.

You could argue that references to "all" refers only to a subset of things, but this would have to be demonstrated.

If you try to prove this from Acts 10, I'm prepared to shoot that down, as well.
Looking at your argument for Acts 10/11, you make a sound point. We have to try to interpret that section too. Are the animals literal, figurative, or symbolic?

We see at least one "unclean" set of animal listed (reptiles), which God declares clean. Based on the conclusion in Acts 11 (as a representation that nonIsraelites have been made clean) the animals have to either be figurative or symbolic (symbolic being both literal and figurative representations at the same time).

You still can't escape the fact that Acts 10 and 11 is stating that God has made many unclean (more than just ceremonially unclean) things clean. If your concept is that things like reptiles are referenced but are only figurative placeholders, this diminishes your argument that "swine" in Isaiah is necessarily literal and not itself a figurative placeholder.

Let's be clear: there's nothing about the RCC that is consistent with Scripture
People from the RCC can make unsound arguments, but that isn't necessarily an indication that the fundamental RCC doctrine is unsound.

, except that Scripture identifies the papacy (the union of the RCC and the State) as the end time Antichrist kingdom.
No it doesn't.

I keep showing you "unclean of itself" is not the proper rendering of Romans 14:14, and yet you continue to ignore solid exegesis
Do you understand that there can be multiple exegesis conclusions that are each consistent with scripture but contradict each other?

Do you understand that the square root of 4 is 2 and -2 at the same time?

If you don't understand that, you don't understand exegesis.

in order to remain contrary. Why? No it isn't. God's choice not to act in no way limits His limitless ability to act.
No, Isaiah's Messianic Second Coming prophecy which is well into the future of 1st century Paul sure does, so why do you continue to reject it? Paul says the things written aforetime pertain to us down here at the end of time, which include Isaiah's Messianic writings. Wrong again. Jesus and Paul did not once attempt to lift the prohibition against eating unclean food and Peter himself, who ate at Jesus' side 3 1/2 years, protested against the idea before Almighty God while in vision. Let's be spiritually mature, OK? Jesus was clarifying the issue of "spiritual cleanliness/uncleanliness", which the Jewish leaders claim depended on ritualistic washing, while Jesus correctly stated was dependent on faith in Him alone.
Yes, eat by faith, and Peter's faith initially led him to only eat according to his upbringing. And as his faith grew stronger, his faith would permit him to see that things were clean. There is no contradiction there. Shortsightedness becomes a stepping stone to greater understanding that is shared by many in scripture, whether it's Paul, Peter, Job, etc. By virtue of not getting it right the first time, they were able to climb to a better perspective for the benefit of everyone. And as Paul points out, just because someone does something for the sake of winning over people to faith, it doesn't mean that is a hard rule "To those under the law, I appeared as one under the law"

which is MOSAIC, NOT MORAL


I'm still looking for that special secret recipe you are using to differentiate between the "Mosaic" vs "Moral" law.

If I were to place a dividing line, I would call it the "letter of the law" vs the "spirit of the law" via 2 Cor 3:6-8. While the spirit of the law has always been valid, the letter of the law has never been the thing that leads us to life.

So far you have acknowledged Leviticus 11 and dismissed Leviticus 12 despite the structure of the commands being identical. Why is that? Because of the topic? Why does the topic make a difference in that case?

So far you have said "rest on the Sabbath" but acknowledged that "good works" is an exception. You state that you have determined what you consider to be "good works" through your conviction in the Holy Spirit, and yet you claim that others can't be led by the Holy Spirit in different ways?

"He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk." - John 5:11 KJV
 
Aug 3, 2019
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So your position is that the handwriting on the stone tablets is different than the handwriting on the Book of Law? And that the book of law is nailed but not the writing on the stones? We see this can't be the case in 2 Cor 3:6-8

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" - 2 Cor 3:6-8 KJV

"For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." - Luke 20:38 KJV
The only way this reasoning would stand is if there were no verses in the New Testament commanding Christians to keep the Ten Commandments, but so sorry, they are there for all to read: didn't Paul say "him that stole, let him steal no more"?

So, rather than admit there must be some other interpretation of your text - which is simply Paul clarifying that those who've been baptized into the "United Church of Salvation By Works" are following a ministry of death - your refusal to stop doing things your way and start doing them God's way compels you to reject harmonious truth in favor of inconsistent error, and I always say when truth is rejected, a lie naturally fills the vacuum; in this case, the lie of Antinomianism.
 
Jan 14, 2021
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I had a quote-nested portion in my last response, I'll repost it here:.

Phoneman-777 said:
Although that is exactly what the text says, right? :rolleyes:
Do you understand the difference between a literal thing, a figurative thing, and a symbolic thing? Your statement here is silly because the direct text seldom explicitly points out which one it is.

Phoneman-777 said:
No, friend, while there are other arguments to support the NT distinction between cleain and unclean meat, the burden is upon YOU


Do you understand how the burden of proof works? Your comment here is silly because if you want to declare an interpretation is necessarily the only interpretation, the burden is on you to make that case.

Phoneman-777 said:
You've tried to show that "unclean of itself" in Romans 14:14 proves we can now eat anything that crawls across our plate

Nothing is unclean in itself. You can try to make the case that Roman 14:14's context is only toward that which is ceremonially unclean (common), but Romans 14:14 is just one of many passages that speaks to the concept that any food is permissible if our faith leads us to it and it does not jeopardize other people's faith.

You could argue that references to "all" refers only to a subset of things, but this would have to be demonstrated.

Phoneman-777 said:
If you try to prove this from Acts 10, I'm prepared to shoot that down, as well.
Looking at your argument for Acts 10/11, you make a sound point. We have to try to interpret that section too. Are the animals literal, figurative, or symbolic?

We see at least one "unclean" set of animal listed (reptiles), which God declares clean. Based on the conclusion in Acts 11 (as a representation that nonIsraelites have been made clean) the animals have to either be figurative or symbolic (symbolic being both literal and figurative representations at the same time).

You still can't escape the fact that Acts 10 and 11 is stating that God has made many unclean (more than just ceremonially unclean) things clean. If your concept is that things like reptiles are referenced but are only figurative placeholders, this diminishes your argument that "swine" in Isaiah is necessarily literal and not itself a figurative placeholder.

Phoneman-777 said:
Let's be clear: there's nothing about the RCC that is consistent with Scripture
People from the RCC can make unsound arguments, but that isn't necessarily an indication that the fundamental RCC doctrine is unsound.

Phoneman-777 said:
, except that Scripture identifies the papacy (the union of the RCC and the State) as the end time Antichrist kingdom.
No it doesn't.

Phoneman-777 said:
I keep showing you "unclean of itself" is not the proper rendering of Romans 14:14, and yet you continue to ignore solid exegesis
Do you understand that there can be multiple exegesis conclusions that are each consistent with scripture but contradict each other?

Do you understand that the square root of 4 is 2 and -2 at the same time?

If you don't understand that, you don't understand exegesis.

Phoneman-777 said:
in order to remain contrary. Why? No it isn't. God's choice not to act in no way limits His limitless ability to act.
No, Isaiah's Messianic Second Coming prophecy which is well into the future of 1st century Paul sure does, so why do you continue to reject it? Paul says the things written aforetime pertain to us down here at the end of time, which include Isaiah's Messianic writings. Wrong again. Jesus and Paul did not once attempt to lift the prohibition against eating unclean food and Peter himself, who ate at Jesus' side 3 1/2 years, protested against the idea before Almighty God while in vision. Let's be spiritually mature, OK? Jesus was clarifying the issue of "spiritual cleanliness/uncleanliness", which the Jewish leaders claim depended on ritualistic washing, while Jesus correctly stated was dependent on faith in Him alone.
Yes, eat by faith, and Peter's faith initially led him to only eat according to his upbringing. And as his faith grew stronger, his faith would permit him to see that things were clean. There is no contradiction there. Shortsightedness becomes a stepping stone to greater understanding that is shared by many in scripture, whether it's Paul, Peter, Job, etc. By virtue of not getting it right the first time, they were able to climb to a better perspective for the benefit of everyone. And as Paul points out, just because someone does something for the sake of winning over people to faith, it doesn't mean that is a hard rule "To those under the law, I appeared as one under the law"

Phoneman-777 said:
which is MOSAIC, NOT MORAL


I'm still looking for that special secret recipe you are using to differentiate between the "Mosaic" vs "Moral" law.

If I were to place a dividing line, I would call it the "letter of the law" vs the "spirit of the law" via 2 Cor 3:6-8. While the spirit of the law has always been valid, the letter of the law has never been the thing that leads us to life.

So far you have acknowledged Leviticus 11 and dismissed Leviticus 12 despite the structure of the commands being identical. Why is that? Because of the topic? Why does the topic make a difference in that case?

So far you have said "rest on the Sabbath" but acknowledged that "good works" is an exception. You state that you have determined what you consider to be "good works" through your conviction in the Holy Spirit, and yet you claim that others can't be led by the Holy Spirit in different ways?

"He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk." - John 5:11 KJV

The only way this reasoning would stand is if there were no verses in the New Testament commanding Christians to keep the Ten Commandments,


The Mosaic 10 commandments don't reappear in the same way that they did in the OT. There are no verses that say to keep the Mosaic 10 commandments, as much as you would like to shoehorn the Mosaic 10 into any reference to "commandments". "Keep the commandments" means to keep the ordinances of the NT covenant. Are you now conceding this?

So, rather than admit there must be some other interpretation of your text - which is simply Paul clarifying that those who've been baptized into the "United Church of Salvation By Works" are following a ministry of death - your refusal to stop doing things your way and start doing them God's way compels you to reject harmonious truth in favor of inconsistent error, and I always say when truth is rejected, a lie naturally fills the vacuum; in this case, the lie of Antinomianism.
To follow the stone tablets is to follow the ministry of death. If you are so against antinomianism, why do you advocate for it?
 
Aug 3, 2019
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I had a quote-nested portion in my last response, I'll repost it here:.



Do you understand the difference between a literal thing, a figurative thing, and a symbolic thing? Your statement here is silly because the direct text seldom explicitly points out which one it is.



Do you understand how the burden of proof works? Your comment here is silly because if you want to declare an interpretation is necessarily the only interpretation, the burden is on you to make that case.




Nothing is unclean in itself. You can try to make the case that Roman 14:14's context is only toward that which is ceremonially unclean (common), but Romans 14:14 is just one of many passages that speaks to the concept that any food is permissible if our faith leads us to it and it does not jeopardize other people's faith.

You could argue that references to "all" refers only to a subset of things, but this would have to be demonstrated.



Looking at your argument for Acts 10/11, you make a sound point. We have to try to interpret that section too. Are the animals literal, figurative, or symbolic?

We see at least one "unclean" set of animal listed (reptiles), which God declares clean. Based on the conclusion in Acts 11 (as a representation that nonIsraelites have been made clean) the animals have to either be figurative or symbolic (symbolic being both literal and figurative representations at the same time).

You still can't escape the fact that Acts 10 and 11 is stating that God has made many unclean (more than just ceremonially unclean) things clean. If your concept is that things like reptiles are referenced but are only figurative placeholders, this diminishes your argument that "swine" in Isaiah is necessarily literal and not itself a figurative placeholder.



People from the RCC can make unsound arguments, but that isn't necessarily an indication that the fundamental RCC doctrine is unsound.



No it doesn't.



Do you understand that there can be multiple exegesis conclusions that are each consistent with scripture but contradict each other?

Do you understand that the square root of 4 is 2 and -2 at the same time?

If you don't understand that, you don't understand exegesis.



Yes, eat by faith, and Peter's faith initially led him to only eat according to his upbringing. And as his faith grew stronger, his faith would permit him to see that things were clean. There is no contradiction there. Shortsightedness becomes a stepping stone to greater understanding that is shared by many in scripture, whether it's Paul, Peter, Job, etc. By virtue of not getting it right the first time, they were able to climb to a better perspective for the benefit of everyone. And as Paul points out, just because someone does something for the sake of winning over people to faith, it doesn't mean that is a hard rule "To those under the law, I appeared as one under the law"



I'm still looking for that special secret recipe you are using to differentiate between the "Mosaic" vs "Moral" law.

If I were to place a dividing line, I would call it the "letter of the law" vs the "spirit of the law" via 2 Cor 3:6-8. While the spirit of the law has always been valid, the letter of the law has never been the thing that leads us to life.

So far you have acknowledged Leviticus 11 and dismissed Leviticus 12 despite the structure of the commands being identical. Why is that? Because of the topic? Why does the topic make a difference in that case?

So far you have said "rest on the Sabbath" but acknowledged that "good works" is an exception. You state that you have determined what you consider to be "good works" through your conviction in the Holy Spirit, and yet you claim that others can't be led by the Holy Spirit in different ways?

"He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk." - John 5:11 KJV



The Mosaic 10 commandments don't reappear in the same way that they did in the OT. There are no verses that say to keep the Mosaic 10 commandments, as much as you would like to shoehorn the Mosaic 10 into any reference to "commandments". "Keep the commandments" means to keep the ordinances of the NT covenant. Are you now conceding this?



To follow the stone tablets is to follow the ministry of death. If you are so against antinomianism, why do you advocate for it?
Thank you, but I'm not going to spend any more time on one who refuses to accept Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV as it is written, claiming without any basis, contextual or otherwise, that it is a symbolic passage.

Isaiah's passage destroys your premise and is why you cannot allow it to be a literal passage, despite the future fire being literal, the future judgment of "all flesh" being literal, the future judgment against idolaters being literal, and the future judgment against those who partake of abominations being literal...but someone "swine" and "mice" are symbolic? No. The only thing that is symbolic is your claim to practicing honest hermeneutics.
 
Jan 14, 2021
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Thank you, but I'm not going to spend any more time on one who refuses to accept Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV as it is written, claiming without any basis, contextual or otherwise, that it is a symbolic passage.

Isaiah's passage destroys your premise and is why you cannot allow it to be a literal passage, despite the future fire being literal, the future judgment of "all flesh" being literal, the future judgment against idolaters being literal, and the future judgment against those who partake of abominations being literal...but someone "swine" and "mice" are symbolic? No. The only thing that is symbolic is your claim to practicing honest hermeneutics.
I accept your forfeit.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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I accept your forfeit.
No, I simply choose to no longer answer a fool in his folly, because anyone claiming Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV is a symbolic just because they don't agree with the condemnation of a singular item on the list therein shows himself to be very foolish.
 
Jan 14, 2021
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No, I simply choose to no longer answer a fool in his folly, because anyone claiming Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV is a symbolic just because they don't agree with the condemnation of a singular item on the list therein shows himself to be very foolish.
Calling yourself a fool is not very kind to yourself. It's OK that you can't answer any of the questions regarding your position. You cannot answer my questions because your position is self-contradictory. As I said, I accept your forfeit.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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no one ever forfeits to anyone in the Bible discussion fourm.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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When it comes to what exactly was "nailed to the Cross" in Colossians 2:14-16 KJV, we hear different things:

1. Everything except the Two Great commandments
2. Only the Mosaic Law
3. Only the Mishna and Talmud (bogus "ex cathedra" oral tradition)
Are you saying all three of these points are what you hear, or were you listing the different things possibly interpreted from the passage (I'm asking because I'm not sure)?

What I'm saying is Paul wasn't referring to your number 1 or 2 in Colossians 2. What I mean is, those weren't the issue Paul was addressing at this point in his letter. Note here:


Colossians 2:4-7
And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.



In context, what "faith" had they been taught?

Well, if we assume that the same instructions established at the Council in Acts 15:19-21 were distributed to all followers of The Way, then it's safe to assume that all were instructed that "no extra burden be placed on the people except to abstain from sexual immorality, from eating blood and food sacrificed to idols, for the Law of Moses would be peached every Sabbath day."

This is the whole of what they were being taught: the Law of Moses. So the issue being addressed wasn't the Law of Moses but was whatever "other men" were saying that led them away from what they were being taught. Paul never taught against the law of Moses. he even performed the Nazarite Vow to prove it, and sought to be in Jerusalem for the feasts. He would also sit in the synagogue as the law was taught, and then afterward - when given the chance to give a word - Paul taught that the rituals that provided the "remedy" for sin (i.e. penalties and judgments, which were always shadow pictures) were fulfilled in Messiah. But in Colossians 2 he's specifically speaking against those who are attempting to lead the people away from their teachings.


Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


Yes, the penalties and judgments were written by Moses, but they were not rudiments of the world or traditions of men or vain deceit or philosophy. They were judgments from the Almighty. Indeed, they were only added because of Israel's transgression and foreshadowed the work Messiah would do, but Paul isn't referring to these when he says "beware"...not in this letter. He's speaking on something else, which he details in verses 20-22.


Colossians 2:20-22
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.



Yes, you are right with regard to Deuteronomy 31:24-26 (what I call the rituals for remedying sin), but Paul is literally speaking about "the ordinances after the commandments and doctrines of men". He's saying "the rituals for remedying sin are done so why then make yourselves subject to these other man-made traditions which do nothing but satisfy the flesh?" He's not speaking against the law of Moses, that's my point.

Both Messiah and Paul promoted keeping the commandments. No one replaced the commandments with just the greatest two, rather, on the two greatest commandments hang all of the others (because if you truly align with the Two you'll follow the others...it'll be easier).

Note the keywords in the following passage further support Paul's warning against following outsiders and their bogus traditions:


Colossians 2:16-18
6 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,



Paul's point: "Let no one but the body of christ instruct you in your walk because others will lead you astray."

Jesus made clear the Mishna was illegit from the get go.
That doesn't mean the issue disappeared. It was a constant problem in the first century and even continues today (over 4000 Christian denominations); adding to the Word man-made traditions...taking away from the Word what's written.

In fact, that's literally at the heart of the mystery of iniquity (Lit. secret lawlessness).
 

TMS

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When men are not willing to see the truth and receive it, because it involves a cross, they are opening the door to Satan’s temptations. He will lead them, as he led Eve in Eden, to believe a lie. The truth through which they might have been sanctified is set aside for some pleasing delusion presented by the destroyer of souls in traditions and feelings. It is often the case that the most precious truth appears to lie close by the side of fatal errors. The rest that Christ promised to all who should learn of him lies close beside indifference and carnal peacefulness, and multitudes overlook the fact that this rest is found only in wearing Christ’s yoke and bearing his burden, in possessing his meekness and lowliness. The great truth of our entire dependence upon Christ for salvation lies close to the error of presumption. Freedom in Christ is by thousands mistaken for lawlessness; and because Christ came to release us from the condemnation of the law, men declare that the law itself is done away, and that those who keep it are fallen from grace. And thus, as truth and error appear so near akin, minds that are not guided by the Holy Spirit will be led to accept the error, and in so doing place themselves under the power of Satan’s deceptions.
 
Jan 14, 2021
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Well, if we assume that the same instructions established at the Council in Acts 15:19-21 were distributed to all followers of The Way, then it's safe to assume that all were instructed that "no extra burden be placed on the people except to abstain from sexual immorality, from eating blood and food sacrificed to idols, for the Law of Moses would be peached every Sabbath day."

This is the whole of what they were being taught: the Law of Moses. So the issue being addressed wasn't the Law of Moses but was whatever "other men" were saying that led them away from what they were being taught. Paul never taught against the Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?law of Moses.
I suggest you read the entirety of Acts 15 to see what it says.

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" - Acts 15:10 KJV

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" - Acts 15:24 KJV

"For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." - Acts 15:28-29 KJV
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Are you saying all three of these points are what you hear, or were you listing the different things possibly interpreted from the passage (I'm asking because I'm not sure)?

What I'm saying is Paul wasn't referring to your number 1 or 2 in Colossians 2. What I mean is, those weren't the issue Paul was addressing at this point in his letter. Note here:


Colossians 2:4-7
And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.


In context, what "faith" had they been taught?

Well, if we assume that the same instructions established at the Council in Acts 15:19-21 were distributed to all followers of The Way, then it's safe to assume that all were instructed that "no extra burden be placed on the people except to abstain from sexual immorality, from eating blood and food sacrificed to idols, for the Law of Moses would be peached every Sabbath day."

This is the whole of what they were being taught: the Law of Moses. So the issue being addressed wasn't the Law of Moses but was whatever "other men" were saying that led them away from what they were being taught. Paul never taught against the law of Moses. he even performed the Nazarite Vow to prove it, and sought to be in Jerusalem for the feasts. He would also sit in the synagogue as the law was taught, and then afterward - when given the chance to give a word - Paul taught that the rituals that provided the "remedy" for sin (i.e. penalties and judgments, which were always shadow pictures) were fulfilled in Messiah. But in Colossians 2 he's specifically speaking against those who are attempting to lead the people away from their teachings.


Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


Yes, the penalties and judgments were written by Moses, but they were not rudiments of the world or traditions of men or vain deceit or philosophy. They were judgments from the Almighty. Indeed, they were only added because of Israel's transgression and foreshadowed the work Messiah would do, but Paul isn't referring to these when he says "beware"...not in this letter. He's speaking on something else, which he details in verses 20-22.


Colossians 2:20-22
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


Yes, you are right with regard to Deuteronomy 31:24-26 (what I call the rituals for remedying sin), but Paul is literally speaking about "the ordinances after the commandments and doctrines of men". He's saying "the rituals for remedying sin are done so why then make yourselves subject to these other man-made traditions which do nothing but satisfy the flesh?" He's not speaking against the law of Moses, that's my point.

Both Messiah and Paul promoted keeping the commandments. No one replaced the commandments with just the greatest two, rather, on the two greatest commandments hang all of the others (because if you truly align with the Two you'll follow the others...it'll be easier).

Note the keywords in the following passage further support Paul's warning against following outsiders and their bogus traditions:


Colossians 2:16-18
6 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,


Paul's point: "Let no one but the body of christ instruct you in your walk because others will lead you astray."



That doesn't mean the issue disappeared. It was a constant problem in the first century and even continues today (over 4000 Christian denominations); adding to the Word man-made traditions...taking away from the Word what's written.

In fact, that's literally at the heart of the mystery of iniquity (Lit. secret lawlessness).
Of course Paul taught against the Law of Moses - he said circumcision and uncircumcision were "nothing" which is a direct foundational attack on the Law of Moses...which Paul knew had been nailed to the Cross, so no big deal.

Furthermore, "put no other burden on you..." did not mean the Ten Commandments were abolished, for only a fool will argue it is now acceptable to steal, murder, etc. The disciples were trying to evangelize bigoted Jews, so certain concessions not imposed by God were necessary for the purposes of establishing credibility. Imagine how quickly they'd have alienated the very ones they were trying to reach by eating meat sacrificed to idols, right or wrong? Even today, there are some cultures where Christian missionary women must be covered before entering among pagan men.

The Ten Commandments are still very much imposed upon the church by God, as they, unlike the Mosaic Law, are found preached throughout the NT.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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Indeed! I don't know of anyone who obeys the Law of Moses.
However, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in some (Romans 8:4).

Not sure why you have the cognitive dissonance as concerning that verse.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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However, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in some (Romans 8:4).

Not sure why you have the cognitive dissonance as concerning that verse.
Amen...everything to which it pertained has ceased to be: the theocracy, the Sanctuary economy, the types and shadows that met their fulfillment in Christ.
 

BroTan

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Sep 16, 2021
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Indeed! I don't know of anyone who obeys the Law of Moses.

I know a lot a people that keeps the Lord's laws (Commandments) that was given to Moses. But not the animal Sacrificial laws which was also given to Moses in Leviticus 4 chapter. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).