Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh
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Then what? If the Son was created for that purpose, then after that purpose is fulfilled the Son would be no more needed and the Father could put Him away and reign over all things as the one and true God. This notion that Jesus Christ was created by the Father takes away the Deity of Christ and does not make Him equal with God the Father. It also takes away from God becoming a man and being manifest in the flesh. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. They are inseperable and they are one and they are same in being, in nature, in eternal life and in all things, because they are eternal uncreated life. They have always been and always will be. There is no Father without the Son and no Son without the Father. When Jesus was born of a virgin, this was the beginning of God taking on a human form as a man to be manifested as the Son of God or God with us. Jesus said that if you have seen me you have seen the Father and he never took it back
Jn 12:44-50 Jesus cried and said , He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. WHAT DOES THIS STATEMENT MEAN TO YOU?
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken , the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say , and what I should speak . 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak .
Jesus said that you can't believe upon the Father without me and you can't believe upon me without believing upon the Father also. Jesus made it very clear that He and the Father are one and you can't believe upon one without the other and together they reveal only one true God giving one true fellowship with the Father and the Son.
Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jn 12:44-50 Jesus cried and said , He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. WHAT DOES THIS STATEMENT MEAN TO YOU?
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken , the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say , and what I should speak . 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak .
Jesus said that you can't believe upon the Father without me and you can't believe upon me without believing upon the Father also. Jesus made it very clear that He and the Father are one and you can't believe upon one without the other and together they reveal only one true God giving one true fellowship with the Father and the Son.
Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Nope, Christ is God and is ALL God and there is nothing about Him that is not God or only a part of God. For Him to be part of God would mean that something is missing but there is nothing missing because He is the exact expressed image of the Father. NOTHING IS MISSING! He is God in the flesh and is now ascended at the right hand of the Father and is equal with God.
"he who believes in the Son has eternal life, he who rejects the Son does NOT have life for GOd's wrath remains on him..". John 3:36
it is believing in the Son that saves us.
some tend to make the subject of 'salvation' very complicated. i think it is very simple
it is believing in the Son that saves us.
some tend to make the subject of 'salvation' very complicated. i think it is very simple
Probably the best post I have read on this entire thread.
Just goes to show, you don't have to write much to go to the heart of the truth
A
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
Albert Einstein
Read more: Albert Einstein Quotes - BrainyQuote
And Jesus made it really simple that's why the pharisees and scribes had a hard time, put them out of work.
Albert Einstein
Read more: Albert Einstein Quotes - BrainyQuote
And Jesus made it really simple
that's why the pharisees and scribes had a hard time, put them out of work.
Very good qiuestion Ananda and a very important oe indeed. Silverwind also answered it with an wonderful verse.
One question I can add to that.
At which point do you realise who Jesus is, I eman at conversion you may not exactly know, but once reading through scriptures you do learn. So I guess is OK to have any view about Jesus?
Can I believe Jesus is the son of God yet not God himself, or can I believe jesus is one of many god's, is he a divine being just above the angels? Who did Jesus say he was for us to believe in Him?
I think Silverwinds verse answers that, He who believes in the Son
that is the Son Jesus said He was!
Very good qiuestion Ananda and a very important oe indeed. Silverwind also answered it with an wonderful verse.
One question I can add to that.
At which point do you realise who Jesus is, I eman at conversion you may not exactly know, but once reading through scriptures you do learn. So I guess is OK to have any view about Jesus?
Can I believe Jesus is the son of God yet not God himself,
Well that is the question is it not that preoccupies so many
If a belief that Christ is the son of God but not God Himself means a person cannot have eternal life any church truly led of God would have to clearly and plainly preach that from the pulpit, this is unarguable
Which leads me to the inevitable question.
Have you YET found me one seremon from ANY Baptist church in the UK that plainly preaches from the pulpit that which you proclaim?
'If a person believes Christ is the son of God but not God himself they are a heretic, condemned and can have no eternal life.'
You know as well as I do yuou will NEVER be able to produce such a sermon from any mainstream Baptist church in the UK
Therefore, either they are terribly letting down their congregations, or you are simply giving your own personal opinions that your church will not publically proclaim
Where does that leave the credibility of your man made belief?
or can I believe jesus is one of many god's, is he a divine being just above the angels? Who did Jesus say he was for us to believe in Him?
I think Silverwinds verse answers that, He who believes in the Son that is the Son Jesus said He was!
One question I can add to that.
At which point do you realise who Jesus is, I eman at conversion you may not exactly know, but once reading through scriptures you do learn. So I guess is OK to have any view about Jesus?
Can I believe Jesus is the son of God yet not God himself,
Well that is the question is it not that preoccupies so many
If a belief that Christ is the son of God but not God Himself means a person cannot have eternal life any church truly led of God would have to clearly and plainly preach that from the pulpit, this is unarguable
Which leads me to the inevitable question.
Have you YET found me one seremon from ANY Baptist church in the UK that plainly preaches from the pulpit that which you proclaim?
'If a person believes Christ is the son of God but not God himself they are a heretic, condemned and can have no eternal life.'
You know as well as I do yuou will NEVER be able to produce such a sermon from any mainstream Baptist church in the UK
Therefore, either they are terribly letting down their congregations, or you are simply giving your own personal opinions that your church will not publically proclaim
Where does that leave the credibility of your man made belief?
or can I believe jesus is one of many god's, is he a divine being just above the angels? Who did Jesus say he was for us to believe in Him?
I think Silverwinds verse answers that, He who believes in the Son
that is the Son Jesus said He was!
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Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees which is Hypocrisy
Luke 12:1
Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Saducees
Then they understood thast he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Saducees
Matt 16:12
A
Very good qiuestion Ananda and a very important oe indeed. Silverwind also answered it with an wonderful verse.
One question I can add to that.
At which point do you realise who Jesus is, I eman at conversion you may not exactly know, but once reading through scriptures you do learn. So I guess is OK to have any view about Jesus?
Can I believe Jesus is the son of God yet not God himself, or can I believe jesus is one of many god's, is he a divine being just above the angels? Who did Jesus say he was for us to believe in Him?
I think Silverwinds verse answers that, He who believes in the Son that is the Son Jesus said He was!
One question I can add to that.
At which point do you realise who Jesus is, I eman at conversion you may not exactly know, but once reading through scriptures you do learn. So I guess is OK to have any view about Jesus?
Can I believe Jesus is the son of God yet not God himself, or can I believe jesus is one of many god's, is he a divine being just above the angels? Who did Jesus say he was for us to believe in Him?
I think Silverwinds verse answers that, He who believes in the Son
that is the Son Jesus said He was!
i have another. I still believe Jesus is God but it is a hard concept for people to grasp which is why Jesus made it easier for them and says:Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Luke 12:10
“And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.
The Holy Spirit testifies that JESUS came from GOD and not a DEMON
To believe upon Jesus Christ as the Son of God for salvation is to believe upon God who became flesh and lived among us. God who became flesh in the womb of a virgin and was born as God in the flesh (Mt 1:23). He came down from heaven and grew up as God in the flesh and had His ministry doing the will of the Father as God in the flesh (Lk 2:49, Jn 6:38-40). He was justified in the Spirit as God in the flesh and was seen of angels as God in the flesh (1Tim 3:16). The disciples had seen and laid their eyes upon Him and handled Him as the Word of life (1Jn 1:1).
God had to become a man in the likeness of sinful flesh so that He could condemn sin in His flesh by shedding His blood and being crucified unto death (Rom 8:3). God had to become a man and experience what is was like to be a man in the world in which man lived and He did this without any sin mentally, emotionally or in any part of his flesh that was tempted from without. As a man He was crucified through weakness (2Cor 13:4) and he came from heaven that we might have life (Jn 5:40, 10:10).
He is the Son of God (Jn 1:34), the Son of man (Jn 1:51), and God in the flesh (Rom 8:3, 1Tim 3:16, 1Jn 4:2,3). For man to believe upon the Son, who died and shed His blood for the remission of sins (Mt 26:28) was to have eternal life that came from the Father and the Son (Jn 5:26).
Jn 3:12-18 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe , if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up : 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved . 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned : but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jn 14:6,7 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way , the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.7 If ye had known me , ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jn 12:44,45 Jesus cried and said , He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 6:44,45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard , and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
*This is the living Word of Life that cometh down from heaven as the bread of life. This Word of Life came down to reveal the Father that man would believe upon Him through the Son...
Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
The spirit of this age denies that Christ came in the flesh as God with us, to humanize Jesus Christ and not recognize Him as God that came in the flesh. This is done to deify man to make man equal with Christ without the deity of God. To make Jesus Christ the Son to be lesser than the Father is to strip Deity and Divinity away from the Son. To strip Him of these, humanizes the Lord Jesus Christ and makes His blood and death on the cross only a human experience of a sacrificed life and not one of obtaining eternal redemption for man (Heb 9:12).
God is the only one that can obtain eternal redemption for man. For sinful man to be redeemed from His sin that separated Him from God, that redemption must come from God through the shedding of His own blood from one that is perfect and without sin. God is the only one that is perfectly righteous and knows no sin and that perfection is in the Son and there is no way that we can know the perfect righteousness of the Father without knowing the Son. The Son was sent to reveal the perfect righteousness of the Father and is our righteousness...
1Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
In order for any of this to take place God had to become a man through His Son. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their sins unto them (2Cor 5:18,19)
To say that the Son is not as great as the Father is to say that what was offered through the Son was something less than the greatness and goodness of the Father. The Father has always been in the Son and the Son could offer nothing but the life of the Father who was in Him. This is what Christ meant when He said the Father was greater than He and that the Father was only good, because the Father was revealing Himself to man through the Son. This made the Son equal with the Father, for not only was the Father in the Son but the Son was in the Father. That means that the Father could reveal nothing but the Son whom He sent as the only begotten.
The Son was the only begotten because the Father could reveal no other. They are one and the same, within and without. The Father revealed the Son and the Son revealed the Father. If you have seen me you have seen the Father, Jesus said. They are one and they agree in one and no man cometh unto the Father but by me, Jesus said, and no man cometh to me except the Father draw them. There is no salvation, no redemption, no reconciliation, no righteousness, no justification or sanctification or forgiveness of sins through the Son without the Father. If any believe otherwise or any other doctrine, then they deny that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh through the Son.
God had to become a man in the likeness of sinful flesh so that He could condemn sin in His flesh by shedding His blood and being crucified unto death (Rom 8:3). God had to become a man and experience what is was like to be a man in the world in which man lived and He did this without any sin mentally, emotionally or in any part of his flesh that was tempted from without. As a man He was crucified through weakness (2Cor 13:4) and he came from heaven that we might have life (Jn 5:40, 10:10).
He is the Son of God (Jn 1:34), the Son of man (Jn 1:51), and God in the flesh (Rom 8:3, 1Tim 3:16, 1Jn 4:2,3). For man to believe upon the Son, who died and shed His blood for the remission of sins (Mt 26:28) was to have eternal life that came from the Father and the Son (Jn 5:26).
Jn 3:12-18 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe , if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up : 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved . 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned : but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jn 14:6,7 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way , the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.7 If ye had known me , ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jn 12:44,45 Jesus cried and said , He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 6:44,45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard , and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
*This is the living Word of Life that cometh down from heaven as the bread of life. This Word of Life came down to reveal the Father that man would believe upon Him through the Son...
Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
The spirit of this age denies that Christ came in the flesh as God with us, to humanize Jesus Christ and not recognize Him as God that came in the flesh. This is done to deify man to make man equal with Christ without the deity of God. To make Jesus Christ the Son to be lesser than the Father is to strip Deity and Divinity away from the Son. To strip Him of these, humanizes the Lord Jesus Christ and makes His blood and death on the cross only a human experience of a sacrificed life and not one of obtaining eternal redemption for man (Heb 9:12).
God is the only one that can obtain eternal redemption for man. For sinful man to be redeemed from His sin that separated Him from God, that redemption must come from God through the shedding of His own blood from one that is perfect and without sin. God is the only one that is perfectly righteous and knows no sin and that perfection is in the Son and there is no way that we can know the perfect righteousness of the Father without knowing the Son. The Son was sent to reveal the perfect righteousness of the Father and is our righteousness...
1Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
In order for any of this to take place God had to become a man through His Son. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their sins unto them (2Cor 5:18,19)
To say that the Son is not as great as the Father is to say that what was offered through the Son was something less than the greatness and goodness of the Father. The Father has always been in the Son and the Son could offer nothing but the life of the Father who was in Him. This is what Christ meant when He said the Father was greater than He and that the Father was only good, because the Father was revealing Himself to man through the Son. This made the Son equal with the Father, for not only was the Father in the Son but the Son was in the Father. That means that the Father could reveal nothing but the Son whom He sent as the only begotten.
The Son was the only begotten because the Father could reveal no other. They are one and the same, within and without. The Father revealed the Son and the Son revealed the Father. If you have seen me you have seen the Father, Jesus said. They are one and they agree in one and no man cometh unto the Father but by me, Jesus said, and no man cometh to me except the Father draw them. There is no salvation, no redemption, no reconciliation, no righteousness, no justification or sanctification or forgiveness of sins through the Son without the Father. If any believe otherwise or any other doctrine, then they deny that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh through the Son.
Jesus is God.
God manifested in the flesh, to men.
The Father is God.
Jesus came from The Father.
God is a Spirit.
whenever the trinity debate comes up, i stop short of the words "persons", because for me it is one small step from there to 3 gods.
the Godhead has been revealed to man in various and sundry ways, now in these last days in His Son (Who is God)
GodHead
Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: theotés
Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)
Short Definition: deity, Godhead
Definition: deity, Godhead.
2320 theótēs (a feminine noun derived from 2316 /theós, "God") – the personal God revealed in the Bible who is triune and infinitely relational as demonstrated by the embodiment of the Godhead in the incarnated Christ (used only in Col 2:9).
2320 /theótēs ("fullness of deity") expresses God's "essential (personal) deity, as belonging to Christ" (WS, 906). 2320 (theótēs) focuses on Christ physically embodying the Godhead through His incarnation and shown throughout His perfect life of faith (cf. Heb 12:2).
[For more on Christ's full deity, see 2316 /theós ("God") at Sidebar A.]
EVERTHING WE CAN KNOW AND MUST BE GRASPED IS IN THE WORK AND PERSON (the two can not be separated) OF JESUS CHRIST (WHO IS GOD).
God manifested in the flesh, to men.
The Father is God.
Jesus came from The Father.
God is a Spirit.
whenever the trinity debate comes up, i stop short of the words "persons", because for me it is one small step from there to 3 gods.
the Godhead has been revealed to man in various and sundry ways, now in these last days in His Son (Who is God)
GodHead
2320. theotés
deity
deity
Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: theotés
Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)
Short Definition: deity, Godhead
Definition: deity, Godhead.
2320 theótēs (a feminine noun derived from 2316 /theós, "God") – the personal God revealed in the Bible who is triune and infinitely relational as demonstrated by the embodiment of the Godhead in the incarnated Christ (used only in Col 2:9).
2320 /theótēs ("fullness of deity") expresses God's "essential (personal) deity, as belonging to Christ" (WS, 906). 2320 (theótēs) focuses on Christ physically embodying the Godhead through His incarnation and shown throughout His perfect life of faith (cf. Heb 12:2).
[For more on Christ's full deity, see 2316 /theós ("God") at Sidebar A.]
EVERTHING WE CAN KNOW AND MUST BE GRASPED IS IN THE WORK AND PERSON (the two can not be separated) OF JESUS CHRIST (WHO IS GOD).
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Are you going to stereotype me into one of your contrived doctrinal molds of influence that comes from your own unbelief that is saturated with religious conviction that has nothing to do with God's light, God's love and God's truth that make up the person-hood of the Godhead that reveals the one and only true God, with the Father who planned it, the Son who executed the plan and the Spirit that reveals the truth of it to the mind and heart of man?
Christ was born as God in the flesh and His name was called Jesus, the Son of God, who was equal with the Father in every way. No man could see the Father without the Son and no man could believe upon the Son without the Father drawing them through lovingness and the Spirit convicting their heart of the truth.
Christ was born as God in the flesh and His name was called Jesus, the Son of God, who was equal with the Father in every way. No man could see the Father without the Son and no man could believe upon the Son without the Father drawing them through lovingness and the Spirit convicting their heart of the truth.
Very wise; "persons" is discrete, not distinct. Agreed about tritheism. But where does that leave a conceptual understanding? Still three separate "who"s?
The question is: Is the Word God's OWN "who" or a separate "who"? And is the HS yet a separate "who"? OR... Is God one "who"? IOW... How many minds does God have?
Though this source imbeds the inference of "triune"; notice the reference to the embodiment of the Godhead.
And is this "person" the prosopon (G4383) and hupostasis (G5287) of God? Or another prosopon and hupostasis?
Can any actual Scripture be utilized to specifically show the Father and Holy Spirit each as a prosopon or hupostasis?
Do you perceive that God and Father are interchangeable terms? If God IS the Father... Son and HS are diminished. THIS is the self-undermining fallacy of Trinity doctrine. God is F-S-HS. The Father is... the Father.
"Where" is God's Soul? Scripture speaks of it. Is it metaphorical or literal? I would hate to have to view all scriptural soul references as euphemistic; which would also lead to all spirit references being euphemistic.
Even Trinity is often referred to as Tripartite. Any way one looks at it, God is comprised of constituent "parts". F-S-HS cannot individually be the whole of God to the exclusion of the others. The primary issue is how distinct or discrete they are.
(And I hope you know by now... but I'm not being adversarial toward you as I tend to be with some others who are wholly indoctrinated and disingenuous.)
The question is: Is the Word God's OWN "who" or a separate "who"? And is the HS yet a separate "who"? OR... Is God one "who"? IOW... How many minds does God have?
Though this source imbeds the inference of "triune"; notice the reference to the embodiment of the Godhead.
And is this "person" the prosopon (G4383) and hupostasis (G5287) of God? Or another prosopon and hupostasis?
Can any actual Scripture be utilized to specifically show the Father and Holy Spirit each as a prosopon or hupostasis?
Do you perceive that God and Father are interchangeable terms? If God IS the Father... Son and HS are diminished. THIS is the self-undermining fallacy of Trinity doctrine. God is F-S-HS. The Father is... the Father.
"Where" is God's Soul? Scripture speaks of it. Is it metaphorical or literal? I would hate to have to view all scriptural soul references as euphemistic; which would also lead to all spirit references being euphemistic.
Even Trinity is often referred to as Tripartite. Any way one looks at it, God is comprised of constituent "parts". F-S-HS cannot individually be the whole of God to the exclusion of the others. The primary issue is how distinct or discrete they are.
(And I hope you know by now... but I'm not being adversarial toward you as I tend to be with some others who are wholly indoctrinated and disingenuous.)