Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 11, 2011

I do not agree with LBG. And I don't demonstrate a "post-modern" mindset of blanket love and tolerance. That's why I vehemently opposed the extra-biblical error-upon-error of Filioque-Trinity as doctrine of men, since God is not three "persons".

God's Soul/The Father was well pleased in the Son (Matt. 12:18, 2Pet. 1:17). Jesus was the fullness (pleroma) of the Godhead (Theotes) bodily (Col. 2:9), and the express image (charakter) of God's substance (hupostasis) (Heb. 1:3); and was the person/face/appearance (prosopon) of God to man (2Cor. 2:10); the Holy Spirit being the spirit of His mouth (2Thess. 2:8).

Jesus proceeded*forth (exerchomai) and came (heko) from (ek) God; and did not come (erchomai) of Himself, but was sent (apostellos) by the Father (John 8:42, John 17:8). The Holy Spirit proceedeth (ekporeuomai) from (para) the Father, sent unto (pempo) us by Jesus and the Father (John 15:26, John 14:26).

The "L"ogos is God's own Logos (Rev. 19:13), and out of (ek) His mouth (stoma) goeth (ekporeuomai) a sharp sword (Rev. 19:15, 19:21, 1:16, 2:12, 2:16) with two edges. The "Logos" speaks the "logos". The word (logos) of God (Theos) is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing (diikneuomai) to the dividing*asunder (merismos) of soul-spirit and joints-marrow (body-soul) (Heb. 4:12). And there appeared unto them cloven (diamerizo) tongues of fire, and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:3-4).

The Word ("L"ogos) pierced to the dividing*asunder of God's Soul (Father) and Spirit (Holy Spirit); the Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father by being pierced through and dispatched out from its place of origin (ekporeuomai). The word ("l"ogos) spoken by the Word-made-flesh does the same for our soul-spirit, joints-marrow.

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.
The Father is God's Soul.
The Word (Son) is God's embodiment (Body).
God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.
Man is spirit-soul-body of one person.

God is not three "persons". That is an extra-biblical doctrine of men, and is wholly inferred and propagated through indoctrination.

livingbygrace · Apr 11, 2011

phil36 said:

But of course as you always do Phil you will simply ignore the plain scripture put to you for you have no answer to it. As does Red you cannot understand or accept the clear scripture written. It does not fit in with the man made beliefs you blindly follow

The true absurdity of your belief is that according to scripture YOU MUST believe Paul is a heretic too

When it says that everything has been put under him IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GPOD HIMSELF who put everything under Christ
1 Cor 15:27

But somehow you must reason that for Paul to believe Christ is not God Himself does not make him a heretic, but I am one for believing what he wrote

This is the absolute absurdity of your man made beliefs

John lived with Christ for three years when he lived on earth. What did John say?

No-one has seen God
1 John 4:12

So if you had any consistency in your opinions you would have to say John is a heretic too.

So as Red does all you can do is ignore the plain continuous scripture put to you, you have no answers for them, but then you come back with scripture you THINK supports your weak, man made opinions

CAN YOU GIVE ME ONE PLAIN VERSE OF SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS
IF WE DO NOT BELIEVE CHRIST IS GOD HIMSELF WE CAN HAVE NO ETERNAL LIFE

CAN YOU GIVE ME ONE PLAIN VERSE OF SCRIPTURE WHERE CHRIST COMMANDED ANYONE TO BELIEVE HE WAS GOD HIMSELF

No you cannot

But all of this has to means nothing to you, it is the only way you can cling to your weak, man made beliefs. It is you who believes what is not scriptural, that is plain, but you will never see it. You are lost in the man made beliefs you follow and the scholar/theologians you rely on for the truth

phil36 · Apr 11, 2011

Hi Pneuma,

I know you don't believe that God is triune. I know that LBG thinks Jesus is some other 'type of God' but not God the Father.

You both believe different thins about God, and that is your own personal preference.

I will go with the testimony and truth of Scripture and all the Church Fathers through out the ages and that is God is triune, Father, Sonand Holy Spirit.

Have a blessed day Pneuma.

Phil

phil36 · Apr 11, 2011

Hi LBG,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.... Are we not to believe in Jesus, that means who is is, and who he said He is?

He did not say believe in any man made theory of who you think I may be, like the muslims do, like the JW's do, Like the mormons do.

That LBG, is Idolatry.

Phil

livingbygrace · Apr 11, 2011

phil36 said:

Hi Pneuma,

I know you don't believe that God is triune. I know that LBG thinks Jesus is some other 'type of God' but not God the Father.

LBG knows according to scripture there is one true God, the Father. There are not three different Gods

For even if there are so-called gods whether in Heaven or on earth(as indeed there are many gods and many lords.)
Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER FROM whom all things came and FOR whom we live, and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST THROUGH WHOM all things came and THROUGH WHOM we live

1 Cor 8:5&6

If people were refered to as gods to whom the message of God came, should not God's only begotten son be refered to as God also?

I do not read up on any scholars/theologians, I do not rely on them for the truth. And all of your reading and intellectualisation concerning the word of God has simply left you unable to answer plain scripture when it is put to you.
And you condemn as heretics anyone who says they believe Christ is the son of God but not God Himself

You demand for true Christianity what Christ never demanded, you add to what is written.

If anyone acknowledges that Christ is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God

1 John 4:15

DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN

1 Cor 4:6

You both believe different thins about God, and that is your own personal preference.

I will go with the testimony and truth of Scripture and all the Church Fathers through out the ages and that is God is triune, Father, Sonand Holy Spirit.

Can you tell me why it took the church until 300 years after the death oif Christ to make official something on which you believe eternal life hinges?
Therefore this was not clearly believed throughout all ages
Have a blessed day Pneuma.

Phil

Answers ablove

livingbygrace · Apr 11, 2011

phil36 said:

You don't unberstand what I mean? Everyone alse has when I have put these questions

Christ continuously claimed to be the son of God
The Pharisees believed that was who he claimed to be

John 19:7

So phil, do you not understand the following question?

PLEASE GIVE ME A PLAIN, CLEAR SCRIPTURE WHERE CHRIST COMMANDED ANYONE TO BELIEVE HE WAS THE ONE TRUE GOD HIMSELF. For if you are right Christ would have made very plain what you believe to be true

AND PLEASE GIVE ME A CLEAR SCRIPTURE WHERE CHRIST STATED THAT UNLESS A PERSON BELIEVES HE IS GOD HIMSELF THEY CAN HAVE NO ETERNAL LIFE

phil36 · Apr 11, 2011

livingbygrace said:

Don't worry LBG, I know exactly what you mean, and it is Biblical Christianity!

I have gave you them before, and others have given you them. Even those who believe in 'oneness' will say Jesus is the one true God manifest in the flesh.. but here's the big problem, you believe Jesus to be another sort of God.

Now, You have been shown where Jesus Himself claied to be God Himself. Anyhow, I personally dont see your beliefs as Christian. You may class yourself as a christian but so do many cults etc. But your beliefs are not biblical Christianity.

As I said before LBG. Do you believe who Jesus said He was, that is the biggest question we all have to answer?

May you have a blessed day LBG

phil36 · Apr 11, 2011

I will answer that with a question. Do you believe in Jesus? that means to believe someone you have to believe who they are and what they have said.

I pray the viel over your eyes are removed LBG, I pray that in all humility.

Blessings

Phil

livingbygrace · Apr 11, 2011

phil36 said:

Don't worry LBG, I know exactly what you mean, and it is Biblical Christianity!

I have gave you them before, and others have given you them. Even those who believe in 'oneness' will say Jesus is the one true God manifest in the flesh.. but here's the big problem, you believe Jesus to be another sort of God.

God was manifest in the flesh of Christ, but Christ was not the one true God

Now, You have been shown where Jesus Himself claied to be God Himself.

I have not. Please show me scripture where Christ claimed to be the one true God Himself

I know scripture where Christ said the Father was greater than he and the Father was the one true God, but not where Christ claimed to be the one true God

Anyhow, I personally dont see your beliefs as Christian. You may class yourself as a christian but so do many cults etc. But your beliefs are not biblical Christianity.

Thios goes from the sublime to the ridiculous. I give you much plain scripture to back up what I believe. As usual you IGNORE everything put to you, you have no answers to the scripture put to you so you dismiss it to cling to ypour man made beliefs

As I said before LBG. Do you believe who Jesus said He was, that is the biggest question we all have to answer?

Then please give me the verse where Christ said

I am the one true God

If you cannot you are making claims you cannot substantiate
May you have a blessed day LBG

Answers ablove

livingbygrace · Apr 11, 2011

phil36 said:

Do not answer questions with a question

For once please just answer a question

CAN YOU GIVE ME A VERSE OF SCRIPTURE WHERE CHRIST STATED THAT IF WE DO NOT BELIEVE HE IS GOD HIMSELF WE CAN HAVE NO ETERNAL LIFE

Yoy have answered NONE of my questions thismorning and have IGNORED all of the scripture I have put to you, something I hope the independant observer has noticed

But then you continually ramble on that my beliefs are not Biblical, but you cannot scripturally refute any of them

So you cannot answer any of the scriptures put to you or any of the questions put to you but you say I am not a Christian, yet I stand on the plain words of Christ for my salvation

You by your own admittance stand on the church and unfortunately in many(not all) instances never the twain shall meet

phil36 · Apr 11, 2011

LBG,

one question that might help you.

John 8:59

At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Why where the Jews going to stone him to death (Jesus)?

livingbygrace · Apr 11, 2011

phil36 said:

As my nephew, an ordained Baptist minister shook his head at yoiur beliefs on this subject I shake my head now

Firstly, as are you and the Trinitarians who take your view on this, all of the plain scripture given to you on this subject is put to one side and ignored and you quote a verse where Christ DOES NOT SAY HE IS THE ONE TRUE GOD, but you try to make something which isn't written appear as if it was

Firstly. Who did the Pharisees believe Christ claimed to be

We have a law and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be THE SON OF GOD
John19:7
This was just before Christ was crucified, so after hearing all he had said this was who the Pharisees believed Christ had claimed to be.
And

The high priest said to him
'I charge you under oath BY THE LIVING GOD. Thell us if you are the Christ, THE SON OF GOD

Yes it is as you say, Jesus replied

Matt 26:63&64

If they believed Christ had claimed to be God Himself they would have acciused him as such, now to your verse of scripture

Well Christ certainly did exist before Abraham was born, absolutely, but let us adress the inference, the burning bush

Who appeared to Moses in the burning bush?

There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush
Ex 3:2

And

He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself through the angel who appeared to him in the bush
Acts 7:35

Unfortunately you do not understand the basics of Father and son. You have followed the church who say that Christ is God Himself. The Father spoke through the son, and the Fathers work was done through the son, but the son was not the one true God, only the Father is as Christ, Paul and John clearly testified
THERE ARE NOT THREE GODS, there is one true God who is greater than all and greater than Christ
AS CHRIST HIMSELF TESTIFIED

I say again. I answer the scriptures you put before me, you answer NONE that I put before you, yet you read up on many theologians/scholars I read up on none

Maybe it would be better if you put them all to one side and trusted yourself to God and the spirit for truth, for he is the greatest theologian of them all

phil36 · Apr 11, 2011

I am very suprised at your Nephews response, especilally considering the High significance the 'London School of Theology' teach the trinity, and also the Baptist union, and the Fiec.. Something doesnt sound right with your statements there????

Anyhow, LBG, I will shake the dust of my Shoes concernign yourself. couple of reasons below.

1)You deny who Jesus is, and not out of ignorance! therefore it is Idolatry

2) The real problem is that you claim to be a Christian and in the body of Christ, this most certainly cannot be, when you wilfully and with full knowledge deny who Christ is.

There would be no problem if someoe who isnt a Christian said such things, as we know they are in the dark, but you claim to be in the light yet believe and espouse false teachings on here and porbably whoever you get the chance to. therefore you rubbish the name of the Lord and claim to be His.

Phil

livingbygrace · Apr 11, 2011

phil36 said:

I am very suprised at your Nephews response, especilally considering the High significance the 'London School of Theology' teach the trinity, and also the Baptist union, and the Fiec.. Something doesnt sound right with your statements there????

My nephews response is based on the fact that you say anyone who simply believes Christ is the son of God and not God Himself is a heretic and condemned and can have no eternal life
I don't know how any Christian who stands on what is written in the Bible could react differentl.y. Your Gospel of what is required to have eternal life is not written in the Bible.
I have given you ample opportunity to give me JUST ONE verse of scripture that states
'Unless you believe I am God Himself you can have no eternal life.'
You cannot give me a scripture that supports your belief, therefore your belief is not Biblical, but nevertheless you accuse me of having non Biblical beliefs

Wisdom is always proved right by its inconmcistencies

Anyhow, LBG, I will shake the dust of my Shoes concernign yourself. couple of reasons below.

1)You deny who Jesus is, and not out of ignorance! therefore it is Idolatry

More ridiculous statements.

But what about you he asked, who do you say I am?
Simon Peter replied
'You are the Christ, the son of the living God
Jesus replied
Blessed are you Simon Son of Jonah for this was not rervealed to you by man but by my Father in Heaven
Matt 16:15-17

Then the high priest said to him
I charge you under oath, by the living God(note those words) Tell us if you are the Christ the son of God
Yes it is as you say, Jesus replied
Matt 26:64&65

The Jews insisted. 'We have a law and according to that law he must die because he claimed to be the son of God
John 19:7

Don't you think they would have loved to make the accusation. 'He claimed he was God Himself?'

2) The real problem is that you claim to be a Christian and in the body of Christ, this most certainly cannot be, when you wilfully and with full knowledge deny who Christ is.

I accept who Christ is and who he claimed to be, and who the Pharisees said he claimed to be. And when Christ was asked under oathkif he was the son of God he said he was he did not say he was God Himself
Unfortunately you put the reasoninig of man before the plain words of scriptyure,

There would be no problem if someoe who isnt a Christian said such things, as we know they are in the dark, but you claim to be in the light yet believe and espouse false teachings on here and porbably whoever you get the chance to. therefore you rubbish the name of the Lord and claim to be His.

False teaching according to man made beliefs, yes I accept that charge.
Everrything I believe is backed up by plain scripture. You as usual ignore all the plain scripture put before you and just continually say I am condemned, a heretic and espouse false teaching. What utterly ridiculous nonsense
IT IS YOU WHO DO NOT HOLD TO WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE
But as with so many others you have no answers to the scripture placed before you for it does not agree with the teaching of your theologians and scholars.
And so we have a watered down Christianity in most churches that lacks REAL POWER for it is a Christianity built on the shalllowness of the human mind and its wisdom, not the Holy Spirit filled Bible
But as you and so many others will not accept the plain words of Christ, Paul, John and the Father no wonder record niumbers are leaving the mainstream churches disebchanted, and by your own admittance most churches are mainly filled with those who come from the more affluent half of society and the more intellectually gifted half of society, for these churches stand on the intellect of man, not the Holy Spirit breathed Bible

Phil

Answers above

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 11, 2011

phil36 said:

Hi, Phil-

Even though choose not to provide scriptural support for your Trinity belief, you are more gracious than most.

A quick clarification... I'm not exercising personal preference. I have spent my life the last 13 years in the Word with much fasting and prayer to have the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him (Eph. 1:17), instead of believing what men have said. I disaffirm the one extra-biblical word (person-s) that introduced an erroneous concept of the Theotes (Godhead; Divinity) based on an eisegetic misunderstanding of the Logos.

This is not "personal preference"; it's truth I've very nearly given my physical life for while fasting nigh unto death many times. Led of the Spirit, I also learned Hebrew and Greek from several preeminent sources, while exhaustively studying every Ante-Nicene writing extant to know what every early church father wrote. This isn't "preference", and ought not be for anyone.

I have yet to meet a Trinitarian who has given ANY part of their life to truly know Him, and virtually nobody fasts to know its effects on both flesh and spirit. I also have yet to meet a Trinitarian who can support the doctrine from Scripture beyond mere inference of tradition and indoctrination. Trinitarians don't search the Word by the Spirit to discover who God is; what little study is mere confirmation and assent through eisegetic proof-texting based solely on inference and the influence of tradition.

And Filioque compounds the error, going beyond extra-biblical to unbiblical.

God was manifest in the flesh. The Logos is God's OWN Word that became flesh, the image of His OWN substance to be the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

There is no Trinity "personal preference" that can be substantiated from Scripture.

Be blessed across the Pond.

phil36 · Apr 11, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

Hi Pneuma,

I'm not evading your questions, I have debated here at length before answering the same old questions. You have your heart set that God is not triune, and that is up to you to do so.

I have agve you on another thread regarding John 17 and the personal pronouns that are both in the Greek and English text, and you cannot say as you tried to, that it is just 'Language'. For it is by language that we can understand that God Almighty Himself chose to reveal Himself and His work in creation and History and the future.

Anyhow, Something for you to think about.

Why did God create man?

was God Lonely and he wanted someone to relate to, have a relationship with?

God is love, each person in the trinity love one another in perfect harmony, they are co equal, co eternal yet, the Father sends the Son, the son Sends the Holy Spirit.

Man has the ability and desire to be in loving relations, thats with friends, wives/husbands, because we were created to be like God, a relational being.

Anyhow, We could go on and on and on, I believe from Scripture that God is triune, I Know we will never be able to know the depths and complexities of the Godhead, but we can gleam what God has revealed. I know that without God being a perfect relation being with each person of the trinity, I would not desire relationships in the same way.

I cannot force you to believe what you do not want neither do I desire too. You have said you were once a Trinitarian, but I also know there are many 'oneness' believers who have seen the real glory of God.

I humbly pray that you too, se the great Glory of the Godhead in God's glorious relational love.

Phil

resurrection33 · Apr 11, 2011

Red33 said:

1Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

How can so many that say they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation and the forgiveness of sins, but do not believe that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh?

I believe Jesus was God in the flesh.

wakeup · Apr 11, 2011

livingbygrace said:

As Red is ignoring my comments could someone else ask him the following two questions please

Can he produce a verse of scripture where Christ commanded anyone to believe he was God Himself?

Can he produce a scripture where Christ stated that unless a person believes he is God Himself they can have no etetrnal life

have to make one up.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 11, 2011

phil36 said:

Briefly, God created man to give His uncreated life to.

God isn't lonely; and doesn't need internal schizophrenic love as three "persons". This is based on Filioque, which indicates it was the mutual love between Father and Son that spirated the Holy Spirit as the third person. Problem is, that leads to a potential infinitely-expanding pleroma of "persons" beyond the three as all their mutual love continually spirates. F+HS=4. S+HS=5. F+4=6. S+4=7. HS+4=8. F,S,HS,4+5=9,10,11,12,13. F,S,HS,4,5+6=14,15,16,17,18. Ad infinitum.

The Holy Spirit ekporeuomai-eth from the Father (only), sent by both the Father and the Son. It wasn't a spiration from mutual love between the F-S. That's a concept that originated in the troubled mind of Augustine and was ultimately adopted in the West.

The Son proceeded*forth and came from God, sent by the Father. The Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father, sent by the Father and the Son. Different rendering for all the Greek.

As for persons, perfect harmony, and the rest; it's inferred conceptualization. Just once, I'd love to hear a Trini say something like... "I realize it's inference and the overall concept is derived by men, but isn't actually scriptural; but I still choose to believe it, even though it's literally unprovable from the text."

You desire relationships with other persons that are distinct other selves within yourself?

I believe the Word, not men or my own perceptions and prefernces. I have seen that great love since hearing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

-PPS

Red33 · Apr 11, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

With all of this prayer and fasting and exhaustive study, where is the fruit.? You don't believe in the Trinity, fine, but where is the fruit that you have been ordained to bear much of that is to remain? We have the testimony in the scriptures of Christ's fruit, we also see Paul's fruit in many of the churches and also the other apostles that have been mentioned in scripture. BUT, where is your fruit?

Through faith you have trusted Christ for salvation and the forgiveness of sins. Christ is in you and you are in Christ and have the indwelling of the Spirit. You have been born of the incorruptible seed of God's word, RIGHT? You have all it takes and it all came from God through mercy and grace and you have been around for awhile as a Christian, so where is the fruit that God has borne in your own life? Is it hidden or yet to be revealed? Is it obvious to all that know you or is it underground following the vine?

Do you cast your bread upon the waters, do you sow when the weathers bad, do you take up your cross and deny yourself to follow Christ who is always bearing fruit through the branches that abide in Him? Do you want all the verses on this, if you do then ask I have them all and they are not man made. These are questions for you to apply to yourself, you do not have to answer me or to me. If you have (13) years invested, you must surely have some fruit to show for it. If not, what are we to think of your life and what you know and understand concerning Christ when you have no fruit?

Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

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