Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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Jul 23, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
Never even tried. But why do you reject so much Scripture?

Well, that's honest. I asked by you reject so much Scripture, and you claim that i have never posted ANY (Scripture) to approve of.

Amazing!! You have actually and unambiguously admitted that there are Scriptures that you DON'T APPROVE of. Unbelievable.

But at least you finally admitted what so many already know.

This explains WHY you've never bothered trying to exegete or offer an explanation of any of the verses that I've shared that prove unambiguously that there is ONLY ONE resurrection for the saved, and that it occurs at the Second Advent.


I have them. But, as you just pointed out, you don't "approve" of them.


Oh, no. I've never refuted the truth of the Bible. So it's impossible to "refute verses" as you seem to think.

What we repeatedly DO refute is your TAKE on the verses you try to use to support your theory. That's a big difference.


And I do that by using verses that clearly and unambiguously state the opposite of what you guys keep claiming.


Since "gather" is a biblical word and used TWICE in regard to the Second Coming (Matt 24, 2 Thess 2:1) it's not a rabbit trail. It's just a word that you admittedly don't "approve of", because it refutes your theory.

The real rabbit trails here is your forcing a "rapture" into Noah's account, Lot's account and the parable of the 10 virgins.


Right. It takes NO brains at all to "not approve of" any verse. Which you've just admitted to doing.
Every time i talk to you, ( hit the "show ignored content") it is the same thing.

Invincible ignorance.
I suggest you put me also on ignore.
You just spew nonsense.

I am done with your silly mess

Bye bye now.


You have never engaged a single point.
 

Charlie24

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Oct 31, 2021
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otoh, it's pretribbers who have the burden of proof (verses) that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. Because that's what you claim and that's what you over-emphasize. And not found in the Bible.

Instead, the Bible teaches plainly that there is just ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.

Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'

To recap, there is:

1. ONE resurrection of the saved. All of them. From Adam on.
2. This ONE resurrection occurs after the Trib martyrs are resurrected, which proves the SINGULAR resurrection of "those who belong to Him" is when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
Oh no, my friend! We were established before you were established, look through history! What Paul taught on pre-trib. was the way the church seen it until the lie of Covenant Theology took over the church!

I will show you for my case what you can't show for your case.

Rev. 4:1-2


"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

This is the picture of the rapture of the church! Then the tribulation begins at this point in time.

John is called into heaven to the Throne of God (the saved saints of the church from all of history to this point) and the things written in Rev. (the tribulation) begin to unfold.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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No, they were advised to get out of the way of God's wrath. Tribulation is not God's wrath. Conflating God's wrath with tribulation is a common, and critical, error of the pre-tribber.
show me the postrib rapture.
Generalized safe statements prove nothing

Make a case for a postrib rapture.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Charlie24 said:
Be glad to when you show us the verse that says the Church will go through the tribulation and be resurrected at the Second coming.
Never in 40 years of my own study have they done that.
But, you know good and well that there is no need for such a verse, since the Bible clearly teaches that there is just ONE resurrection of the saved and that it will occur when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

Here are the verses again, since you haven't been reading my posts.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.

Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'

So, the burden of proof or refute is on you to show how each verse doesn't say what I believe it says.

I've done that will all your verses. And pointed out the hole in your theory; that there are no verses that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

Here's the diff between us.

I have verses that actually say what I claim.

You have no verses that actually say what you claim.

Since you don't, you have to address my verses above and prove they don't say what I claim about them.

If the red and blue words of 2 Thess 2:1 aren't about the Second Advent and rapture, then prove it by explaining what those colors do refer to.

And how there ARE "waves" or "stages" or "series" of resurrections of saved people.
 

FreeGrace2

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Every time i talk to you, ( hit the "show ignored content") it is the same thing.

Invincible ignorance.
I suggest you put me also on ignore.
You just spew nonsense.
Well, I'm not surprised that you view the verses that I keep quoting as "spewing nonsense" since you have recently admitted that there are verses that you don't approve. Makes total sense.

I am done with your silly mess
Said the guy who has the silly mess.

You have never engaged a single point.
Everyone knows this is a lie. Of course I have. Unlike yourself and the verses I keep sharing.
 

FreeGrace2

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Oh no, my friend! We were established before you were established, look through history!
Excuse me, friend. Why the need to "look through history" when by the 2nd Century, nearly all the "divines" got grace wrong and taught salvation by works. Furthermore, I don't need church history because I have the very words of Scripture.

It's your burden to prove the verses I've just shared with you don't say what I claim they mean.

Amazing that one would discount the very words of Scripture, as if they don't count, and default to looking through history for truth.

What Paul taught on pre-trib. was the way the church seen it until the lie of Covenant Theology took over the church!
Interesting. Covenant theology is reformed theology, and I've heard that many of them believe the rapture is post trib.

I will show you for my case what you can't show for your case.

Rev. 4:1-2


"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

This is the picture of the rapture of the church!
Well, this "picture" is just your imagination. Where does the text mention the church or a rapture? It doesn't.

Then the tribulation begins at this point in time.

John is called into heaven to the Throne of God (the saved saints of the church from all of history to this point) and the things written in Rev. (the tribulation) begin to unfold.
So you really think all this negates the verses I shared with you?

In fact, you just did what ALL pretribbers have been doing. Inserting their opinions into a verse/text that DOESN'T say what they claim.

When you are able to prove that the verses I've shared CANNOT mean what they say clearly, let me know.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Absolutely said:
Never in 40 years of my own study have they done that.
And they never will, because it's not found in scripture, and not even hinted at!
Again, here are the verses that totally refute a pretrib rapture.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.

Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'

To recap, there is:

1. ONE resurrection of the saved. All of them. From Adam on.
2. This ONE resurrection occurs after the Trib martyrs are resurrected, which proves the SINGULAR resurrection of "those who belong to Him" is when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

Burden is on you to refute this. Not just disagree.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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I suggest you put me also on ignore.
You just spew nonsense.

I am done with your silly mess

Bye bye now.

You have never engaged a single point.
A very typical response from a poster who has no evidence for their own theory and can't refute the posters who hold to a different view.
 

Laura798

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Jun 6, 2020
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so you are saying that lot stayed for some of the city being burned and was protected, a kinda "no big deal small fire" ....but then came the gasoline from God and lot was removed prior to the " big fire"?

And noah had to swim for his boat mid flood because the first part of the flood was only half a mile deep, and noah and his family hold up on a mountain till God made the ark float by?
He was protected mid flood, then came the ark to deliver him before the " big flood"?

Is that the result of this trib vs wrath midway escape?
'

:unsure:?

I made no reference to either Lot or or Noah--I've simply quoted straightforward scripture.

"33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."--1st Corinthians 14:33
 

Charlie24

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Oct 31, 2021
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Absolutely said:
Never in 40 years of my own study have they done that.

Again, here are the verses that totally refute a pretrib rapture.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.

Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'

To recap, there is:

1. ONE resurrection of the saved. All of them. From Adam on.
2. This ONE resurrection occurs after the Trib martyrs are resurrected, which proves the SINGULAR resurrection of "those who belong to Him" is when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

Burden is on you to refute this. Not just disagree.
LOL, we are doing exactly what those before us have done for centuries! The point I'm making is that you call for proof and have none of your own. That's not a very good argument!
 

Laura798

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Jun 6, 2020
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so you are saying that lot stayed for some of the city being burned and was protected, a kinda "no big deal small fire" ....but then came the gasoline from God and lot was removed prior to the " big fire"?

And noah had to swim for his boat mid flood because the first part of the flood was only half a mile deep, and noah and his family hold up on a mountain till God made the ark float by?
He was protected mid flood, then came the ark to deliver him before the " big flood"?

Is that the result of this trib vs wrath midway escape?
Furthermore--I don't know what angle you think I'm coming from--did you read Matthew 24 that I posted earlier. Clearly I am not a pre-tribber., mid-tribber or any other sort of tribber --God's Word says there's tribulation coming on the earth before Christ's return, then at His return the Judgment, then immediately following that, the wicked and unbelievers along with the destruction of our present heavens and earth-this is His WRATH.

That's the bad news--the good news God's dwelling place will now be with the believers in the New Heavens and New Earth--we will be with Him forever.

PS Furthermore, no one can stand before God and live--that is NO MORTAL Believers cannot ascend to heaven/be in God's presence without their glorified bodies. No one has ascended to heaven and no one ever will--Christ hands over the reign of the kingdom to the Father and He dwells with us in the new paradise."Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."--1st Corinithians 15:24
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Think for a sec. Where do you think the resurrected saints reside during the Millennium?

In fact, Rev 20 tells you.
Think for once , what does that have to do with the rapture ?
Thank you for asking. All pretribbers focus solely on "the rapture".

However, what really needs to be focused on is the resurrection of all believers.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.

Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'

So, we see from Scripture that there is just ONE singular recurrection of all believers. And "the rapture" occurs WHEN the singular resurrection occurs.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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LOL, we are doing exactly what those before us have done for centuries! The point I'm making is that you call for proof and have none of your own.
Please address the verses I have already given you. What do they teach, iyo?

That's not a very good argument!
You've missed the whole point. The verses I have shared say what I claim. And they do it in plain, unambiguous language.

So, if I'm wrong, then prove it by exegeting the verses to SHOW they mean something else.
 

Laura798

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Jun 6, 2020
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Excuse me, friend. Why the need to "look through history" when by the 2nd Century, nearly all the "divines" got grace wrong and taught salvation by works. Furthermore, I don't need church history because I have the very words of Scripture.

It's your burden to prove the verses I've just shared with you don't say what I claim they mean.

Amazing that one would discount the very words of Scripture, as if they don't count, and default to looking through history for truth.


Interesting. Covenant theology is reformed theology, and I've heard that many of them believe the rapture is post trib.


Well, this "picture" is just your imagination. Where does the text mention the church or a rapture? It doesn't.


So you really think all this negates the verses I shared with you?

In fact, you just did what ALL pretribbers have been doing. Inserting their opinions into a verse/text that DOESN'T say what they claim.

When you are able to prove that the verses I've shared CANNOT mean what they say clearly, let me know.
FreeGrace2--not to interrupt your dialogue, but I must say it is why the Roman Catholics burned Christians at the stake and destroyed Bibles--the very Word of God! They hated the truth and would prefer man's teaching over that of the Creator and Father.

The Roman Catholic Church states that the Pope's words are God and he stands in the place of Christ here on earth.
I see this repeatedly in these forums--people arguing from the doctrine of what they have been taught--just as cults and Roman Catholics do, as well as isolating verses and not looking at the whole of scripture. It's sad but true, "If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."


"Cardinal Sarto, who became Pope Pius X, said this: "The Pope represents Jesus Christ Himself..." Sadly, there are Christians who would disagree with this, yet put their pastors teachings above the word of God.

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."--1st John 1:41
 

Laura798

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Jun 6, 2020
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LOL, we are doing exactly what those before us have done for centuries! The point I'm making is that you call for proof and have none of your own. That's not a very good argument!
Charlie, using LOL is disrespectful in the context of a bible forum discussion which I assume are nearly all adults. Furthermore, to say FreeGrace has not given proof is preposterous as they have quoted numerous verses--why don't you compare your response to theirs and see-- I'm really surprised at you. Truly.:confused:
 

Charlie24

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Oct 31, 2021
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Charlie, using LOL is disrespectful in the context of a bible forum discussion which I assume are nearly all adults. Furthermore, to say FreeGrace has not given proof is preposterous as they have quoted numerous verses--why don't you compare your response to theirs and see-- I'm really surprised at you. Truly.:confused:
LOL, is my nature, I use it quite a bit! Sorry you have taken that the wrong way!

Where has @FreeGrace2 shown me in scripture where the Church goes through the tribulation and then resurrected at the Second Coming? That's what we were discussing and it has not been shown!
 

Laura798

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Jun 6, 2020
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LOL, is my nature, I use it quite a bit! Sorry you have taken that the wrong way!

Where has @FreeGrace2 shown me in scripture where the Church goes through the tribulation and then resurrected at the Second Coming? That's what we were discussing and it has not been shown!

Ay yai yai....
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