"Jesus died for everybody's sins"

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Oct 25, 2018
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The gospel tells you how you are saved eternally, but it is not the cause of your eternal salvation. Obedience to the gospel requires an action on man's part, which results in eternal salvation by the work of man.

You probably have explained your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 to me, but I have forgotten what it was. Would you be so as to restating it?
The natural man is a lost person. An unregenerate person. Unless God quickens him, he can not understand it.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Scripture is what makes one wise in regards to salvation[2 Tim. 3:15]. God was well pleased that through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe[1 Cor. 1:21]. It is only after someone has heard the gospel is one sealed with the Holy Spirit[Eph. 1:13].
Eph 2 explains how that a spiritually dead person is transformed, by God's sovereign grace into a spiritual being, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Ezek 36:26-27 is included in this transformation.

The scriptures are not what saves you eternally. They do make the born again child of God wise in regards to how God saved them eternally by his sovereign grace, without the help of man.

The preaching of the gospel can deliver those who believe in God, but are ignorant of God's righteousness, and are going about to establish their own righteousness, by their good works, and have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. This is why Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach the gospel to the lost sheep of the house of Jacob/Israel.

Believing the gospel is not what saves you eternally. When a person is born again they are quickened together with Christ. 2 Tim 2:13, says "if we believe not, yet Christ abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself".

Eph 1 Paul is preaching to the saints which are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus, who already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit telling them that they have obtained an inheritance, and after they believed (belief following regeneration) they were told that the Holy Spirit of promise within them was the earnest of their inheritance until the redemption of their bodies.

We can not ignore some scriptures. They must all harmonize in order to understand the doctrine of Jesus.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,801
447
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The natural man is a lost person. An unregenerate person. Unless God quickens him, he can not understand it.
Then how can the natural man understand the spiritual gospel to get saved by it if he has not been quickened to a spiritual man?
 
May 22, 2020
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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:


The natural man is a lost person. An unregenerate person. Unless God quickens him, he can not understand it.

Then how can the natural man understand the spiritual gospel to get saved by it if he has not been quickened to a spiritual man?
The Spirit regenerates/quickens the natural man, he is now 'born again' and no longer a natural man, no longer spiritually dead. The spiritually alive man is given faith and repentance as part of regeneration ; he now is able to understand, though he is still a babe in Christ and requires more understanding (process of sanctification).

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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Eph 2 explains how that a spiritually dead person is transformed, by God's sovereign grace into a spiritual being, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Ezek 36:26-27 is included in this transformation.

The scriptures are not what saves you eternally. They do make the born again child of God wise in regards to how God saved them eternally by his sovereign grace, without the help of man.

The preaching of the gospel can deliver those who believe in God, but are ignorant of God's righteousness, and are going about to establish their own righteousness, by their good works, and have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. This is why Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach the gospel to the lost sheep of the house of Jacob/Israel.

Believing the gospel is not what saves you eternally. When a person is born again they are quickened together with Christ. 2 Tim 2:13, says "if we believe not, yet Christ abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself".

Eph 1 Paul is preaching to the saints which are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus, who already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit telling them that they have obtained an inheritance, and after they believed (belief following regeneration) they were told that the Holy Spirit of promise within them was the earnest of their inheritance until the redemption of their bodies.

We can not ignore some scriptures. They must all harmonize in order to understand the doctrine of Jesus.
I don’t ignore any scriptures. Salvation occurs via the gospel proclamation, not before it. God uses means to save His ppl, and the gospel is that means.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:


The natural man is a lost person. An unregenerate person. Unless God quickens him, he can not understand it.



The Spirit regenerates/quickens the natural man, he is now 'born again' and no longer a natural man, no longer spiritually dead. The spiritually alive man is given faith and repentance as part of regeneration ; he now is able to understand, though he is still a babe in Christ and requires more understanding (process of sanctification).

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.
And I agree with this. The unregenerate person isn’t zapped with the Spirit and then later on saved via the gospel.
 
May 21, 2020
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This is the tension between those who believed in limited atonement vs one who don't.

Romans 5:12-19 had Adam's disobedience being so powerful that, all his descendants, whether or not they acknowledged, pursue or accept and receive Adam, are automatically condemned into unrighteousness.

But the final Adam, even though he was obedient to the cross and died for us, still required man to make a deliberate choice to pursue and accept his work, in order to be righteous.

You see a slight asymmetry there?
I understand where you are coming from, however, this is a complicated topic that ties into the idea of free will and predestination. I will try to explain the concept I believe as best I can. To begin this explanation, I must set the stage. To do so one will ahve to accept the following statement: As humans, I believe we have free will.


Adam made the mistake, and brought death into the world. As his descendants, we are brought into a world of death created by the first downfall of Adam.

Regarding your first statement, the Jewish religion was established as a way to go to heaven, however atonement was required for every sin in the form of sacrifices, in order to be a righteous person. We know people from the old testament went to heaven because of the example of Elijah in 1 Kings 18.

Jesus was sent down to earth as the ultimate sacrifice for all of our sins. In order to reap the benifits of the sacrifice, similar to the way they were in Judaism, we as Christians instead only need to accept the sacrifice made for us, instead of needing to sacrifice animals like the Jews.

Adam was not a sacrifice, he made the first mistake.

So to accept Jesus is not the same as to accept Adam, as implied in your response. I apologize for any misintepriation, but based on the statements i have presented, your statement would be considered a false analogy.

An attempt to simplify the statements I have made:

we as humans are born into a world of sin because of adam

we do not deserve forgiveness period but we were given a chance through salvation

to do this we must work for it even though there is technically nothing we can do to earn it

to get back to God, we must follow his instruction

Jews had to make sacrifices for their sins to get to heaven

we know there was heaven for Jews because of the story of Elijah rising to heaven

Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice

we as Christians no longer need to sacrifice

But to receive blessings caused by Jesus's sacrifice we need to love and accept him



I hope this helped explain my point of view! I'm willing to work a bit more to put it into a more organized thought if necessary.
 
May 21, 2020
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The "all" in verse 15 of 2 Corinthians 5 are the same as those in verse 5 who God has given the earnest of the Spirit. that is, if you want to keep it in context.
yes! however, I do not see how this changes what I wrote. If it does, please explain how so, so that I can correct either my view or the way I wrote it out.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
4,330
751
113
I understand where you are coming from, however, this is a complicated topic that ties into the idea of free will and predestination. I will try to explain the concept I believe as best I can. To begin this explanation, I must set the stage. To do so one will ahve to accept the following statement: As humans, I believe we have free will.


Adam made the mistake, and brought death into the world. As his descendants, we are brought into a world of death created by the first downfall of Adam.

Regarding your first statement, the Jewish religion was established as a way to go to heaven, however atonement was required for every sin in the form of sacrifices, in order to be a righteous person. We know people from the old testament went to heaven because of the example of Elijah in 1 Kings 18.

Jesus was sent down to earth as the ultimate sacrifice for all of our sins. In order to reap the benifits of the sacrifice, similar to the way they were in Judaism, we as Christians instead only need to accept the sacrifice made for us, instead of needing to sacrifice animals like the Jews.

Adam was not a sacrifice, he made the first mistake.

So to accept Jesus is not the same as to accept Adam, as implied in your response. I apologize for any misintepriation, but based on the statements i have presented, your statement would be considered a false analogy.

An attempt to simplify the statements I have made:

we as humans are born into a world of sin because of adam

we do not deserve forgiveness period but we were given a chance through salvation

to do this we must work for it even though there is technically nothing we can do to earn it

to get back to God, we must follow his instruction

Jews had to make sacrifices for their sins to get to heaven

we know there was heaven for Jews because of the story of Elijah rising to heaven

Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice

we as Christians no longer need to sacrifice

But to receive blessings caused by Jesus's sacrifice we need to love and accept him

I hope this helped explain my point of view! I'm willing to work a bit more to put it into a more organized thought if necessary.
Actually I have no problem rejecting universalism, I do believe that you have to respond in faith in order to receive Christ's righteousness. We are not automatically saved just because Jesus died on the cross.

I was debating this with some reformed baptist elsewhere who believed in limited atonement. After that debate, I begin to empathize with their position and understand why the idea can be appealing.

Reading Romans 5:12-19 again, which is my favorite Pauline passage on the gospel of grace, made me understand why their belief might make sense to them.
 
May 21, 2020
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This makes the self righteous their own savior and robs God of his glory in salvation.
Allow me to further explain my view! In order to receive salvation, one has to love and accept God into their hearts. The verse I chose says "He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them." I believe that the statement "they will live for Christ" requires humility. Why? In an interview with John Piper, the founder & senior teacher of desiringGod.org, titled To live is to Christ, he says "to live is Christ. To live is to magnify Christ. To live is to show that Christ is magnificent...". Humility is a major piece of magnifying Christ. (I state this as a given, but will explain if necessary) As the definition of self righteousness is stated as "having or characterized by a certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior." in the oxford dictionary, to say that
Actually I have no problem rejecting universalism, I do believe that you have to respond in faith in order to receive Christ's righteousness. We are not automatically saved just because Jesus died on the cross.

I was debating this with some reformed baptist elsewhere who believed in limited atonement. After that debate, I begin to empathize with their position and understand why the idea can be appealing.

Reading Romans 5:12-19 again, which is my favorite Pauline passage on the gospel of grace, made me understand why their belief might make sense to them.
ah, got it
 
May 21, 2020
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This makes the self righteous their own savior and robs God of his glory in salvation.
Allow me to further explain my view! In order to receive salvation, one has to love and accept God into their hearts.

The verse I chose says "He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them."

I believe that the statement "they will live for Christ" requires humility.
Why? In an interview with John Piper, the founder & senior teacher of desiringGod.org, titled To live is to Christ, he says "to live is Christ. To live is to magnify Christ. To live is to show that Christ is magnificent...".

Humility is a major piece of magnifying Christ. (I state this as a given, but will explain if necessary) As the definition of self righteousness is stated as "having or characterized by a certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior." in the oxford dictionary, to say that pursuing Christ, which requires living for Christ, which as I have stated requires humility, makes the self righteous their own savior is a bit of an oxymoron.

In other words, how would living for Christ and by association humbly glorifying him for this salvation be robbing God of his glory in salvation?

I apologize if I poorly worded or misinterpreted anything.
 
"Jesus died for everybody's sins".

This is what I hear often from Christians and non-Christians alike.

Surely it isn't true though.

Jesus said
"I am the way, the truth and the life".
Humanity turned away from God when we ignored God's commandments in the garden of Eden.
Jesus offers us a way to develop a relationship with God and to start following Him again.

Jesus died for the sins of the people who choose to follow Him, and believe in Him.
He did not die for every random person, whether they choose to follow and believe in Him or not.

Thoughts?
Jesus died for the sins of the world so that everyone ho believed in Him is save spiritually.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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Jesus died for the sins of the world so that everyone ho believed in Him is save spiritually.
Exactly, SO THAT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVED IN HIM...

When people say "Jesus died for my sins", they mean to imply that Jesus' sacrifice covers their sins.
But this is not the case for people who do not reconcile themselves with God through Jesus, i.e. Jesus' sacrifice doesn't save everybody, i.e. Jesus didn't die for everybody's sins.

He provided everybody the OPPORTUNITY to follow him, but not everybody will.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
4,330
751
113
Jesus died for the sins of the world so that everyone ho believed in Him is save spiritually.
So he did not die for everyone’s sins then, but only those who are willing to believe in him?
 
Apr 21, 2020
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So he did not die for everyone’s sins then, but only those who are willing to believe in him?
When people say "Jesus died for my sins", they mean to imply that Jesus' sacrifice covers their sins and reconciles them with God.
But this is not the case for people who do not reconcile themselves with God through Jesus by following him, i.e. Jesus' sacrifice doesn't save everybody, i.e. Jesus didn't die for everybody's sins.

He provided everybody the OPPORTUNITY to follow him, but not everybody will.

Are you saying that people who do not follow our Lord Jesus Christ are also saved?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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Allow me to further explain my view! In order to receive salvation, one has to love and accept God into their hearts.

The verse I chose says "He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them."

I believe that the statement "they will live for Christ" requires humility.
Why? In an interview with John Piper, the founder & senior teacher of desiringGod.org, titled To live is to Christ, he says "to live is Christ. To live is to magnify Christ. To live is to show that Christ is magnificent...".

Humility is a major piece of magnifying Christ. (I state this as a given, but will explain if necessary) As the definition of self righteousness is stated as "having or characterized by a certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior." in the oxford dictionary, to say that pursuing Christ, which requires living for Christ, which as I have stated requires humility, makes the self righteous their own savior is a bit of an oxymoron.

In other words, how would living for Christ and by association humbly glorifying him for this salvation be robbing God of his glory in salvation?

I apologize if I poorly worded or misinterpreted anything.
If people could love God they would not need for him to save them. People love sin and hate God.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
4,330
751
113
When people say "Jesus died for my sins", they mean to imply that Jesus' sacrifice covers their sins and reconciles them with God.
But this is not the case for people who do not reconcile themselves with God through Jesus by following him, i.e. Jesus' sacrifice doesn't save everybody, i.e. Jesus didn't die for everybody's sins.

He provided everybody the OPPORTUNITY to follow him, but not everybody will.

Are you saying that people who do not follow our Lord Jesus Christ are also saved?
i.e. Jesus' sacrifice doesn't save everybody, i.e. Jesus didn't die for everybody's sins.

Yes, that is what I was paraphrasing the argument above too.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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Allow me to further explain my view! In order to receive salvation, one has to love and accept God into their hearts. The verse I chose says "He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them." I believe that the statement "they will live for Christ" requires humility. Why? In an interview with John Piper, the founder & senior teacher of desiringGod.org, titled To live is to Christ, he says "to live is Christ. To live is to magnify Christ. To live is to show that Christ is magnificent...". Humility is a major piece of magnifying Christ. (I state this as a given, but will explain if necessary) As the definition of self righteousness is stated as "having or characterized by a certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior." in the oxford dictionary, to say that

ah, got it
If you write down all verses on the atonement and balance them against each other, Christ died only for those whom God saves recognized by their faith.