Jesus Failed according to Dispensationalism
- Thread starter Locutus
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This is from leading dispensationalist writer Dwight Pentecost's book "Things to Come":
For the cause of Christ
Roger
because you asked about rejecting the kingdom once it's established - that seemed like a straightforward jump to 'what's to stop man/angels falling again once all things have been reconciled?' i.e. what prevents this whole sin & death thing from starting all over again, what about possibility of Satan 2.0 ?
i admit seeing that in Satan's deception of Eve is complex tho..
let's start there -- is that kinda the same thing you're asking about?
I dunno - the dispensational position is that Christ came to setup an earthly theocratic kingdom for the Jews/Israel and Him to rule over them from Jerusalem. But because he was rejected by many He withdrew the kingdom offer only to re-offer it in the future and supposedly they will accept then.
Now in regards to the thwarting of the Kingdom set up by Jewish rejection my question is why could they not reject him again and re-thwart the kingdom.
One answer posed in the thread was he will do it by force.
My position is that he did not fail because it was not God's will to setup an earthly based theocratic kingdom, but rather a spiritual kingdom of believers built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles.
Now in regards to the thwarting of the Kingdom set up by Jewish rejection my question is why could they not reject him again and re-thwart the kingdom.
One answer posed in the thread was he will do it by force.
My position is that he did not fail because it was not God's will to setup an earthly based theocratic kingdom, but rather a spiritual kingdom of believers built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles.
thanks & ok, i guess you're asking a different ((though similar)) question. what i was talking about is probably an whole other topic ((though a tangential one)) & we can just drop that from this thread for now.
i'm not well-versed on eschatology at all, but doesn't Revelation say Satan is going to be released for a time after the 1,000 years? so that if one sees this as a literal theocratic kingdom, the scripture itself is saying that yes, people will reject Christ even with full knowledge of who He is?
i.e. it's not a question of "if" at all
another point -- the people wanted to make Jesus king on earth, but He would not allow it ((John 6:15)) -- so it seems to me that aside from all the other evidence in scripture that the kingdom isn't an earthly one, that fact alone pokes a hole big enough in the idea to sink it, right?
i'm not well-versed on eschatology at all, but doesn't Revelation say Satan is going to be released for a time after the 1,000 years? so that if one sees this as a literal theocratic kingdom, the scripture itself is saying that yes, people will reject Christ even with full knowledge of who He is?
i.e. it's not a question of "if" at all
another point -- the people wanted to make Jesus king on earth, but He would not allow it ((John 6:15)) -- so it seems to me that aside from all the other evidence in scripture that the kingdom isn't an earthly one, that fact alone pokes a hole big enough in the idea to sink it, right?
No, carry on Bones.
That's a good question - if he supposedly comes as King with power who can ignore or deny this - so all would be saved in his millennial kingdom.
You hit the nail right on the head here - the Jew's wanted to make him King but he flat out rejected that by withdrawing.
John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
I'm pretty sure the dispensationalist view would it was not the right time as a "get out of kingdom" card.
Paul plainly states that first the physical then the spiritual - this applies to all the type/anti-types through out the scripture.
1 Cor 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
What the dispensational paradigm is asserting is natural then spiritual then back to natural.
7
so is this part II then? now how were we supposed to know that?
so then, this is a sequel...but that is just what I said..you just keep posting threads that illustrate your UNBELIEF of scripture
and listen, you and your little gang are the hecklers and mockers here. and proud of it too
false accusations coming from you and yours are par for the way you interact with most people here
so then, this is a sequel...but that is just what I said..you just keep posting threads that illustrate your UNBELIEF of scripture
and listen, you and your little gang are the hecklers and mockers here. and proud of it too
false accusations coming from you and yours are par for the way you interact with most people here
7
here are some of the verses posted by locutus...this whole big whack of scripture was in different posts and only in response to someone else. but somehow, I became a heckler with a memory problem.
I didn't post until the 2nd page and included two posts with a quote article with a source reference with regards to his 'proof' that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD.
in response to those posts, he made a joke:
no refutation of any merit...just a joke that is supposed to offer 'proof' against a well written article that he could not refute so he jokes. well haha we are all edumakated now I guess...
I didn't post until the 2nd page and included two posts with a quote article with a source reference with regards to his 'proof' that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD.
in response to those posts, he made a joke:
Bin there seen dat....
7
She traveled the world and the seven seas, looking for someone who disagrees....
You have any easy choice seven - the ignore button....yer problems solved.
You have any easy choice seven - the ignore button....yer problems solved.
just use the ignore button
you say this over and over to those who refute your ongoing campaign against the nation of Israel
just ignore me
so sorry. no can do. why should the jokers have all the fun
you have an easy choice too. get a Bible and get educated
this is a public forum. if you don't like people responding to your posts, then don't post. are you teaching here and we should all just clam up?
this is a discussion forum and not your teaching platform.
7
now it's my turn to LOL I guess
I provide proof of the LACK of scripture you inserted and you swtich gears yet again
you need, quite badly really, to see that your lack of proof is part of the issue
another part of the issue is your constant attempt at belittling those who provide proof of your lack of proof
and as usual, you are doing your corgi dog bested, to try and make this personal when that is not the issue
this is not personal for me. why do you always have to try and make it seem that others make things personal when you are the one who starts jabbing at them, just like you did here?
let me remind you of what someone else said in this very thread:
you are staying true to the way you seem to handle any sort of criticism . you falsely accuse and try to make it seem the other person has done it to you and when that fails, you tell them to use the ignore button and ignore you
I don't think you understand what a discussion forum is or what a public forum means
Since their rejection of Him was prophesied, it is a work of God also.
The two references below testify to Jesus being a stumblingstone to the Jews.
Isaiah 8:[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:[SUP]43 [/SUP]Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. [SUP]44 [/SUP]And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
This shows that the Jews would not believe Him as the truth is hid from their eyes.
Isaiah 53:1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [SUP]3 [/SUP]He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Luke 19:[SUP]41 [/SUP]And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, [SUP]42 [/SUP]Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
John 12:[SUP]37 [/SUP]But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: [SUP]38 [/SUP]That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Goes to point....prophecies did not testify of the failure of Jesus but the fulfillment of what Jesus had set out to do.
Psalm 22:1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?........[SUP]6 [/SUP]But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. [SUP]7 [/SUP]All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, [SUP]8 [/SUP]He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.........[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. [SUP]15 [/SUP]My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. [SUP]17 [/SUP]I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.....
He will not fail in His return after the great tribulation to set up His millennium reign on earth.
Zechariah 12:[SUP]8 [/SUP]In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: [SUP]7 [/SUP]But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
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The two references below testify to Jesus being a stumblingstone to the Jews.
Isaiah 8:[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:[SUP]43 [/SUP]Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. [SUP]44 [/SUP]And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
This shows that the Jews would not believe Him as the truth is hid from their eyes.
Isaiah 53:1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [SUP]3 [/SUP]He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Luke 19:[SUP]41 [/SUP]And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, [SUP]42 [/SUP]Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
John 12:[SUP]37 [/SUP]But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: [SUP]38 [/SUP]That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Goes to point....prophecies did not testify of the failure of Jesus but the fulfillment of what Jesus had set out to do.
Psalm 22:1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?........[SUP]6 [/SUP]But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. [SUP]7 [/SUP]All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, [SUP]8 [/SUP]He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.........[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. [SUP]15 [/SUP]My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. [SUP]17 [/SUP]I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.....
He will not fail in His return after the great tribulation to set up His millennium reign on earth.
Zechariah 12:[SUP]8 [/SUP]In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: [SUP]7 [/SUP]But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
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it wasn't Peter's thread. he left for the same reason I left and whole bunch of other people left as well
my intent is to refute your beliefs and that is the same intent of all others here who have done the same as have I
again, this is a DISCUSSION forum. get used to it
stop trying to make things personal. there is nothing personal here whatsoever...perhaps between your ears, but not mine
pointing out how you and others here bully some into silence is not personal either. many here have seen what is being done by this type of behavior and it would be great if we all could have an actual discussion without certain members here calling others names, calling them stupid or ignorant...none of which is fitting for a believer actually...and then ignoring all responses to their bad behavior and just going off and doing it to someone else
it's too bad if you cannot take the criticism you seem so keen on handing out
if you don't like the negative feedback, then create your own site and make it inclusive of all who believe just like you and exclusive for those who disagree
in the meantime, stop sniping and making false claims about how this member or that member is doing this or that to you personally when most of us are fed up with the snarky rhetoric and the behavior of a few that think they are above any sort of debate or questionning or disagreement
that's a really childish perspective, and indicates a person who has the very wrong idea that they know everything
no one here knows everything which is why some of us are trying to discuss without being told to shut up, ignore or else bullied off the thread
you can call that a rant if you like
They had the scriptures back in the 1st century and still rejected him:
John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
So what you are implying is once they see him whizzing out of the clouds someday they will suddenly wake up.
So now it's salvation by seeing and not faith then?
John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
So what you are implying is once they see him whizzing out of the clouds someday they will suddenly wake up.
So now it's salvation by seeing and not faith then?