Jesus is Both Father & Son

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stillearning

Guest
#1
Jesus is Both Father & Son

Messiah would be born of a virgin:
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah:
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].
 
Messiah would present himself by riding on an ass:
Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Messiah would be tortured to death:
Psalm 22
Psa 22:1 [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring? Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. Psa 22:3 But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel. Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. Psa 22:6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying], Psa 22:8 He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. Psa 22:9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts. Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly. Psa 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble [is] near; for [there is] none to help. Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round. Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion. Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. Psa 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. Psa 22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. Psa 22:25 My praise [shall be] of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Psa 22:28 For the kingdom [is] the LORD'S: and he [is] the governor among the nations. Psa 22:29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done [this].

Messiah would be the Father & the Son:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Messiah would be bruised and despised:
Isaiah 53
Isa 53:1
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5
But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12
Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
 
C

CarrierOfChrist

Guest
#3
Lemme see if I can make his post clearer...

Jesus is Both Father & Son

Messiah would be born of a virgin:


Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah:


Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].
 
Messiah would present himself by riding on an ass:


Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Messiah would be tortured to death:


Psalm 22:1 - [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring? 2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. 3 But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. 6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying], 8 He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9
But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly. s11 Be not far from me; for trouble [is] near; for [there is] none to help. 12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round.13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. 24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. 25 My praise [shall be] of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. 26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom [is] the LORD'S: and he [is] the governor among the nations. 29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. 30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. 31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done [this]. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.


Messiah would be the Father & the Son:

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Messiah would be bruised and despised:


Isaiah 53:1
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
 
C

CarrierOfChrist

Guest
#4
Now, since I clarified it, time for a rebuttal. First, I want to point out that most of the verses you referenced had nothing to do with the topic. You even pointed that out yourself, it seems. The only verse you listed that backed up your topic was Isaiah 9:6. Here's what I believe, and I hope your mind is OPEN before you read it.

In Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is indeed called "Everlasting Father". We can't deny that. But I believe he's called that because he's the father of Christianity. Here's why:

Abraham is called The father (of many nations). That's what his name literally meant. Does that mean he was literally the father of his entire lineage?

Genesis 17:5 - No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

David is called Jesus' "father", because David was a king in Jesus' lineage, and God promised his throne would be eternal. Does that make David Jesus' literal father?

Luke 1:32 - He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David

David's throne is said to be eternal. That would make Jesus' throne eternal. His throne makes him the king of (ready for this? *drum roll*) Christianity.

2 Samuel 7:16 [To David, from God] - Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.

Is it so far-fetched, with such precedents as these, to come to the conclusion that "Eternal Father" meant Eternally the Father of Christianity, not "God the Father"? Is it? Please tell me why it is, and please, PLEASE use relevant verses this time.
 
S

stillearning

Guest
#5
Now, since I clarified it, time for a rebuttal. First, I want to point out that most of the verses you referenced had nothing to do with the topic. You even pointed that out yourself, it seems. The only verse you listed that backed up your topic was Isaiah 9:6. Here's what I believe, and I hope your mind is OPEN before you read it.

In Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is indeed called "Everlasting Father". We can't deny that. But I believe he's called that because he's the father of Christianity. Here's why:

Abraham is called The father (of many nations). That's what his name literally meant. Does that mean he was literally the father of his entire lineage?

Genesis 17:5 - No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

David is called Jesus' "father", because David was a king in Jesus' lineage, and God promised his throne would be eternal. Does that make David Jesus' literal father?

Luke 1:32 - He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David

David's throne is said to be eternal. That would make Jesus' throne eternal. His throne makes him the king of (ready for this? *drum roll*) Christianity.

2 Samuel 7:16 [To David, from God] - Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.

Is it so far-fetched, with such precedents as these, to come to the conclusion that "Eternal Father" meant Eternally the Father of Christianity, not "God the Father"? Is it? Please tell me why it is, and please, PLEASE use relevant verses this time.
First of Thank you for the help on the study. Now time for my rebuttal.

Jesus is both the creator and descendant of David
Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Mat 1:1 ¶ The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mat 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;
Mat 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
Mat 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
Mat 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
Mat 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 ¶ And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
Mat 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon [are] fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ [are] fourteen generations.
Mat 1:18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Mat 22:41 ¶ While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.
Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat 22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

 
C

CarrierOfChrist

Guest
#6
Again with the load of unrelated verses?? Where does "And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;" tie in with your rebuttal, honestly!? How does "Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily." show Jesus was both the Creator and descendant of David??

I hope you're not expecting me to sort through all of that to find what your rebuttal is, and I hope you're not going to try to claim a victory by confusion either.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#7
Again with the load of unrelated verses?? Where does "And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;" tie in with your rebuttal, honestly!? How does "Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily." show Jesus was both the Creator and descendant of David??

.
So you don't believe Jesus is the Creator or the decendant of David?
 
C

CarrierOfChrist

Guest
#8
So you don't believe Jesus is the Creator or the decendant of David?
Yes, I do. I was simply saying over half of the verses he gave were irrelevant. I want him to break down his argument like I do so I don't have to spend 10 extra minutes realizing that most of the verses he gave have absolutely nothing to do with the point he's trying to make. If he wants to convince someone of something (which is what we're trying to do), it's best to not be confusing about it.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#9
Yes, I do. I was simply saying over half of the verses he gave were irrelevant. I want him to break down his argument like I do so I don't have to spend 10 extra minutes realizing that most of the verses he gave have absolutely nothing to do with the point he's trying to make. If he wants to convince someone of something (which is what we're trying to do), it's best to not be confusing about it.
Yes Jesus is Creator, so how many Creators is that? Just One, or are you saying there is more than one?
 
S

stillearning

Guest
#10
Yes, I do. I was simply saying over half of the verses he gave were irrelevant. I want him to break down his argument like I do so I don't have to spend 10 extra minutes realizing that most of the verses he gave have absolutely nothing to do with the point he's trying to make. If he wants to convince someone of something (which is what we're trying to do), it's best to not be confusing about it.
Now why would i want to break down Gods Holy written Word, let Gods Word Interpret itself.
 
C

CarrierOfChrist

Guest
#11
Hey guys, seriously, this same topic is in 3 separate threads and we're all responding to them. Cup-Of-Ruin: here's my response to you in another thread - http://christianchat.com/showpost.php?p=121920&postcount=60

As for you, stillearning, because you're creating confusion by adding irrelevant verses. Don't give me that "let God's Word Interpret itself" malarkey. The Bible can't interpret itself, it's up to us to read, pray, and perceive the truth.

If I were to paste entire chapters when only 2 verses from it were relevant to the discussion (and contained the entire context), the discussion would grind to a halt, like it's doing with your posts.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#12
Hey guys, seriously, this same topic is in 3 separate threads and we're all responding to them. Cup-Of-Ruin: here's my response to you in another thread - http://christianchat.com/showpost.php?p=121920&postcount=60

.
That is not a response, I asked 'how many Creators do you think there are?' God has taken more than 3 'roles' as you put it and more than 3 forms, or are you saying He is limited to three 'roles', is that act of Creation another 'role'?
 
C

CarrierOfChrist

Guest
#13
Yes, Jesus is the Creator. All persons of the Godhead had a role in the Creation, the Father (Genesis 1:1), the Son (John 1:3; 10; Colossians 1:16), and the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30).
 
C

CarrierOfChrist

Guest
#14
Going to bed now, I'm expecting some COHERENT rebuttals when I return!
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#15
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool....



(speaking of David)
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#16
Yes, Jesus is the Creator. All persons of the Godhead had a role in the Creation, the Father (Genesis 1:1), the Son (John 1:3; 10; Colossians 1:16), and the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30).
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the water"

"And God said 'Let there be light'"

"And God divided"

"And God called"

"And God" etc, etc, etc...


My Bible says GOD created does not say "Godhead" does not say "Triune God" it says Theos in the oldest manuscripts of the full Genesis, and it means supreme Deity, and I don't care for no Chaldean plural gods el of the land of Babylon and their unholy decendents - the Masorete Priests!

There is in Christianity and I mean the real Christianity, not the apostacy that passes as christian most of the time, but in real Christianity, there is one God, it is monotheistic.

Now I translate from the proper Koine Greek of original scripture;

Hebrews 1.

"Many were the forms and fashions in which God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these days at the end he has spoken to us by a Son- a Son whom he appointed heir of the universe, as it was by him that he created the world. He reflecting God's bright glory and stamped with God's own character, sustains the universe with his word of power; when he had secured our purification from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; and thus he is superior to the angels, as he has inherited a Name superior to theirs."

"he says of the Son, 'God is thy throne for ever and ever"

And He who does not have the Son does not have the Father as He says "Behold I make a new covenant" for there was need for a second and only the Father whom with the covenant was made can the new covenant be instituted. "Then He said lo I come to do Thy will O God" He taketh away the first which He stablished so that He may establish the second for which we are 'sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ.' once and for all, for He makes a new covenant 'not like I made with your fathers' and I will be a God to them and they shall be My people and they will know Me, an he who knows the Son knows the Father.

Revelation 4:11

"Thou deservest, our Lord and God, to recieve glory and honour and power, for it was thou who did'st create all things: they existed and were created by thy will."
 
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Dec 24, 2008
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#17
Jesus Christ said he was the Son of God........and he ought to know who he is.
The trinity is a false doctrine started in the latter half of the fourth century.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#18
Rev 4:11 talks of the Father. We see in Rev 5 the Lamb standing in the midst of the throne, but he is not on the throne, the Lamb (Christ) takes the scroll from the one sitting on the throne. Therefore the Lamb (Son) is not the one on the throne. That is the Father.
"Many were the forms and fashions in which God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these days at the end he has spoken to us by a Son-"
Therefore the Son is like a mouthpiece of the Father but not the Father Himself. The Son is a servant just as the prophets were.

a Son whom he appointed heir of the universe,
The Son is appointed heir by the Father. A father cannot appoint himself or be an heir to himself.


as it was by him that he created the world.
It was by the son that he (the Father) created the world.

He reflecting God's bright glory and stamped with God's own character, sustains the universe with his word of power;
The Son reflects God's glory and is stamped with God's own character, but is not God (the Father).

when he had secured our purification from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
The Son sits down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Obviously, then Jesus is not the Majesty on high, that is the Father.

and thus he is superior to the angels, as he has inherited a Name superior to theirs."
Again, the Son inherits a Name superior from the father. God (the Father) cannot inherit Himself.


The koine Greek doesn't do much justice to the Oneness position it seems.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#19
Mahogony, your main problem is that you do not ubnderstand the incarnation nor the ramifications of it. It does not make Jesus a separate god from the Father, or a lesser god or a different person of the God head, it simply made God human therefore distinct from the Father because the Father is God. The distinction between the Father, and son come from the incarnation or humanity of Christ. Not only do you not understand why or where you are wrong you are to pridful to take a step back and learn.
 
C

CarrierOfChrist

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#20
Mahogony, your main problem is that you do not ubnderstand the incarnation nor the ramifications of it. It does not make Jesus a separate god from the Father, or a lesser god or a different person of the God head, it simply made God human therefore distinct from the Father because the Father is God. The distinction between the Father, and son come from the incarnation or humanity of Christ. Not only do you not understand why or where you are wrong you are to pridful to take a step back and learn.
Whoa whoa whoa.. man you guys need to learn sentence structure.

"... made God human, therefore distinct from the Father..." made him a distinct WHAT? *slams palm on desk* THERE. GOT YA. Made him a distinct what, human? Meaning he wasn't God on earth, as in Jesus wasn't God? Jesus was just another human created by God, is that what you're saying?
 
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