Joab: Bible Hero or Villain?

[SomeDisciple]

Looking at the bible's accounts of Joab is very interesting to me. I've seen a lot of preachers preach on Joab, and to me it often times seems like they are super bias and handwave everything wrong that King David ever did, while condemning Joab outright... saying how Joab's heart was always full of hatred and selfishness- but it's their preaching that seems hateful to me. I never feel like it's a fair analysis.
I also find it interesting that Joab died at the altar, but i read studies that insist that he must have been taken away from the altar first- even though Joab says "I will die here" and Solomon says "do as he said" when ordering his execution.
My personal opinion on Joab, is that most of his crimes were morally grey and I don't think he was a selfish murderer at heart like some people say. I think he tried making the best decisions that he could and died seeking the Lord's mercy.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

For what its worth, here are my personal notes on Joab:

Joab killed David's Chosen Commander. He also killed Abner in revenge for Abner killing his brother, Asahel. - Was vital in rebuilding the lesser parts of the City of David after he captured it from the Philistines. Joab restored "the rest of the city" (1 Chron 11:08). - Joab murders Amasa with a dagger to the belly (2 Sam 20:08-10). What's terrible about this story of Amasa and the dagger is that Joab reached out and grabbed Amasa by the beard, kissed him on the cheek, and then thrust the dagger into his belly for the kill. What a terrible pre-image of Judas Iscariot. - Joab was an unfaithful Commander for King David, the original commander for King Saul's army. Joab not only turned on David when his son Absalom tried to take over the throne, and now, here in 1 Kings 01:07, Joab is at it again but with another of David's sons, Adonijah. So why would David keep him as his commander? I have no answer as of yet. However, in chapter 2, verse 6, we find that King David is, in fact, not happy with Joab, for he asks of his son, Solomon, the new King, to not let Joab's "gray head" go to the grave in peace.

I would say that my view of Joab is not a good one. But . . . I like how you think!

 

[Evmur]

Looking at the bible's accounts of Joab is very interesting to me. I've seen a lot of preachers preach on Joab, and to me it often times seems like they are super bias and handwave everything wrong that King David ever did, while condemning Joab outright... saying how Joab's heart was always full of hatred and selfishness- but it's their preaching that seems hateful to me. I never feel like it's a fair analysis.
I also find it interesting that Joab died at the altar, but i read studies that insist that he must have been taken away from the altar first- even though Joab says "I will die here" and Solomon says "do as he said" when ordering his execution.
My personal opinion on Joab, is that most of his crimes were morally grey and I don't think he was a selfish murderer at heart like some people say. I think he tried making the best decisions that he could and died seeking the Lord's mercy.

A serious mistake people make is in supposing that because people were punished in OT times even the ultimate punishment of death, they were also damned. That is not so. Joab was actively involved in treachery. But he had been a valiant commander in David's army.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

A serious mistake people make is in supposing that because people were punished in OT times even the ultimate punishment of death, they were also damned.

Good call, Billy. You never know . . . we might even see king Saul in Heaven.

 

[Evmur]

Good call, Billy. You never know . . . we might even see king Saul in Heaven.

There is no doubt about it ... Samuel said when he appeared to him "this time tomorrow you will be with me".

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

There is no doubt about it ... Samuel said when he appeared to him "this time tomorrow you will be with me".

Yeah, but Samuel was called "up" from Sheol.

 

[Evmur]

Yeah, but Samuel was called "up" from Sheol.

In Sheol was a great chasm between the righteous and the unrighteous which could not be crossed.

Christians read damnation into texts where it just is not intended. This applies also to those darksome texts in Hebrews 6 & 10 which the salvation losers love to quote. Physical punishment and physical death is in view, not damnation.

Paul says of those who were punished in the OT that these things happened to them as a warning for us upon whom the ends of the worlds have come ... so although they are punished they remain in the church as teachers.

... how many sermons have you heard on Lot's wife?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

how many sermons have you heard on Lot's wife?

That's a great question. Zero?

Christians read damnation into texts where it just is not intended.

Yes, and I think that this is because few "christians" have read the Old Testament, let alone try to understand it within the context of the Holy Book, from cover to cover.

This applies also to those darksome texts in Hebrews 6 & 10 which the salvation losers love to quote.

Now, that was just plain ol' funny!

 

[SomeDisciple]

Joab not only turned on David when his son Absalom tried to take over the throne,

You may have some inaccuracies in your notes, depending on what you mean "turned on david". Joab personally kills Absalom himself. The morally grey part to me is because King David commanded him "be gentle with him for my sake". But I personally might have interpreted that as "give him a swift death".

 

[SomeDisciple]

Joab murders Amasa with a dagger to the belly (2 Sam 20:08-10). What's terrible about this story of Amasa and the dagger is that Joab reached out and grabbed Amasa by the beard, kissed him on the cheek, and then thrust the dagger into his belly for the kill. What a terrible pre-image of Judas Iscariot.

See, I have heard this same language comparing him to Judas before, but I don't see any other parallel besides the kiss. Amasa had taken longer to assemble than David had allowed him, but Joab is presumptuous in assuming that he can just kill Amasa for it. It's the only one of his killings that I consider a "murder" as it is an improper execution. David's decision to give Amasa command is also very strange to me, and I think he had already planned to do something against Joab by this time, but never could.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

You may have some inaccuracies in your notes, depending on what you mean "turned on david". Joab personally kills Absalom himself. The morally grey part to me is because King David commanded him "be gentle with him for my sake". But I personally might have interpreted that as "give him a swift death".

Sweet! I appreciate your message. And . . . I'm sure you're right. I'd love to hear more if you have the time to clarify. Thanks!!!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

You may have some inaccuracies in your notes, depending on what you mean "turned on david". Joab personally kills Absalom himself. The morally grey part to me is because King David commanded him "be gentle with him for my sake". But I personally might have interpreted that as "give him a swift death".

Absalom did turn on his father in at least two ways. First, he set up a tent on the roof of David's palace and essentially raped his father's concubines. Then, Absalom tried to claim his father's Holy Throne, but was unsuccessful. Those are pretty big deals . . . right?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

but I don't see any other parallel besides the kiss.

It's more than the simple kiss, but it is about pleasant deception that results in death. It is the height of hypocrisy . . . something you'd NEVER want to be remembered by. They're both snakes in the grass . . . Absalom and Judas. BUT . . . many of the analogies that I think I see could absolutely be wrong. I'm just a mere human trying to understand deep, Spiritual things. I'd hate to be wrong, but if I am, I need to know and get myself corrected. Thanks again!

 

[SomeDisciple]

Absalom did turn on his father in at least two ways. First, he set up a tent on the roof of David's palace and essentially raped his father's concubines. Then, Absalom tried to claim his father's Holy Throne, but was unsuccessful. Those are pretty big deals . . . right?

Right, Absolom turns on David, but you said Joab turned on David.

Joab not only turned on David when his son Absalom tried to take over the throne,

But Joab didn't take Absalom's side. Joab killed Absalom.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Right, Absolom turns on David, but you said Joab turned on David.

But Joab didn't take Absalom's side. Joab killed Absalom.

Oh muh goodness. I completely lost focus. And, after trying to figure out my notes . . . I can't! So it seems that you are right. It also turns out that I changed a few parts of my notes. Thanks for the heads up!!

This . . . is what I'm looking for, here. I want to share with others and be corrected the right way. You corrected me the right way, and I thank you for that.

 

[SomeDisciple]

This . . . is what I'm looking for, here. I want to share with others and be corrected the right way. You corrected me the right way, and I thank you for that.

No problem. I don't know why, but I am drawn in by the story of Joab. I feel like there is much to learn from him, just like David.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

No problem. I don't know why, but I am drawn in by the story of Joab. I feel like there is much to learn from him, just like David.

Interesting. I haven't found much of a character in him, however, I get the feeling that he was the kind of guy that might have a continuous frown upon his face. Sort of a rough, tough guy capable of doing just about anything. The only other thing that stands out about him, to me, is that his name is written throughout a lot of Scripture.

I have to admit that I've never thought to pay close attention to Joab's character. I'm in the middle of the chronological story of Joab and David right now . . . lasting about two months, reading every day. I'll take note of him, so thanks for directing my attention to something new for me to chew on. Very cool.