John 5:3 and Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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As far as the eunuch goes, show me where faith alone is all that's necessary for salvation .
Whosoever believes means faith alone.

I challenge those who believe that water-baptism is essential for salvation to answer this:

What happens to all the Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopalians [& other denominationals] who happen to trust Christ as Savior, but were sprinkled as babies and die without being actually being water-baptized (as defined by dipping, dunking, immersing)?


Are they roasted in the Lake of Fire with weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth?
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Whosoever believes means faith alone.

I challenge those who believe that water-baptism is essential for salvation to answer this:

What happens to all the Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopalians [& other denominationals] who happen to trust Christ as Savior, but were sprinkled as babies and die without being actually being water-baptized (as defined by dipping, dunking, immersing)?


Are they roasted in the Lake of Fire with weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth?
how can say you trust someone and not obey his word? Why do you want to change the command of God? repent and be baptised....how does a baby repent? false teachings is not an excuse to disobey God....when you were young and your mom told you to go take a bath ....if you just sprinkled a bit of water over yourself...do you think she would consider that a bath?
God is not a respector of persons
Ezekiel 20:38

And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Is it a command to be baptized? then why wasn't the the thief on the cross had some water thrown on him. I will tell you why, it is by faith in the work of the cross and not your own. Baptism is a good thing but can be a bad thing. If your faith is placed in your baptism then your in for a hurting.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Is it a command to be baptized? then why wasn't the the thief on the cross had some water thrown on him. I will tell you why, it is by faith in the work of the cross and not your own. Baptism is a good thing but can be a bad thing. If your faith is placed in your baptism then your in for a hurting.
Faith in Christ....Christ said to be baptised...how can it be a bad thing
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Faith in Christ....Christ said to be baptised...how can it be a bad thing
1) Who said it was bad to be water-baptized?
2) Did Christ say to be sprinkled?

Do babies sprinkled go to Heaven if they trust Christ as SAvior, yet never get immersed?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
how can say you trust someone and not obey his word?
The point is what brings salvation, not what happens after a man is saved. Is there an argument about works following the new birth after God recreates a man to good works? Why go on kicking a dead horse, arguing vs a straw man. The argument is not that after a man is saved his works validate his faith; the argument is about what does a sinner do to get saved.

Why do you want to change the command of God? repent and be baptised....how does a baby repent?
But what do you mean by "baptised"? That is a transliteration of a Greek work for which you are not giving a meaning. Do you mean immersed? If so, do those who trust the Lord Jesus as SAvior, but never get immersed go to Hell if only sprinkled?
 
Mar 28, 2014
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1) Who said it was bad to be water-baptized?
2) Did Christ say to be sprinkled?

Do babies sprinkled go to Heaven if they trust Christ as SAvior, yet never get immersed?
post was in response to Kerry....more baby talk ...seriously I don't think babies trust anyone but their mommies I don't even know if they understand anything about Christ....
 
Mar 28, 2014
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The point is what brings salvation, not what happens after a man is saved. Is there an argument about works following the new birth after God recreates a man to good works? Why go on kicking a dead horse, arguing vs a straw man. The argument is not that after a man is saved his works validate his faith; the argument is about what does a sinner do to get saved.
repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the HS
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.



But what do you mean by "baptised"? That is a transliteration of a Greek work for which you are not giving a meaning. Do you mean immersed? If so, do those who trust the Lord Jesus as SAvior, but never get immersed go to Hell if only sprinkled?
baptised is the same thing that John did to Jesus and the HS came upon him in the form of a dove...those who trust Jesus Christ practise the same baptism...
you actually think there is a disjoint between when you are saved and after you are saved....we are saved by grace through faith...
 
A

Alligator

Guest
Is it a command to be baptized? then why wasn't the the thief on the cross had some water thrown on him. I will tell you why, it is by faith in the work of the cross and not your own. Baptism is a good thing but can be a bad thing. If your faith is placed in your baptism then your in for a hurting.
This has been answered numerous times. Christ's baptism of the Great Commission did not take effect until after His death.We live under the new law, the thief lived under the Old. See Hebrews 9:16-17
 
A

Alligator

Guest
Greek Baptizo is used here which is to submerge the word you are looking for is bapto which is to dip repeatedly. Baptizo is never used for water baptism. A whole host of folks have endeavored to illuminate you on this

Oh really. Look at this: Matt. 3:11 Jesus said "I baptize you with water" and guess what word he uses, BAPTIZO. Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; are other scriptures that use it. You re spreading false information. It is obvious you are just trying to make a case for Spirit baptism.

As far as the eunuch goes, show me where faith alone is all that's necessary for salvation .
Whosoever believes means faith alone.

I challenge those who believe that water-baptism is essential for salvation to answer this:

What happens to all the Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopalians [& other denominationals] who happen to trust Christ as Savior, but were sprinkled as babies and die without being actually being water-baptized (as defined by dipping, dunking, immersing)?


Are they roasted in the Lake of Fire with weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth?

Whosoever believes absolutely does NOT mean faith alone. That's you cherry picking again. Isn't it ironic that the only time the phrase "faith alone" is used in the bible it says we are NOT justified by faith alone.
 
A

Alligator

Guest
Whosoever believes means faith alone.

I challenge those who believe that water-baptism is essential for salvation to answer this:

What happens to all the Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopalians [& other denominationals] who happen to trust Christ as Savior, but were sprinkled as babies and die without being actually being water-baptized (as defined by dipping, dunking, immersing)?


Are they roasted in the Lake of Fire with weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth?
Trust Christ as savior? And refuse to,obey him? I think not.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Trust Christ as savior? And refuse to,obey him? I think not.
So Alligator maintains that only the immersed go to Heaven?

So or Alligator all the Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopalians [& other denominationals] who happen to trust Christ as Savior, but were sprinkled as babies and die without being actually being water-baptized (as defined by dipping, dunking, immersing)?

Alligator is saying that they are roasted in the Lake of Fire with weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth for being sprinkled instead of immersed?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
I guess Alligator's claim is that if you are sprinkled & not immersed, you go to hell, even if you trusted Christ as Savior.

Whosoever believes absolutely does NOT mean faith alone. That's you cherry picking again. Isn't it ironic that the only time the phrase "faith alone" is used in the bible it says we are NOT justified by faith alone.
But justifies is not the same as saved.

Whosoever believes implies faith alone results in salvation.

Justification is not = to salvation. Justification is a declaration that a man is righteous. This is freely given to all believers the moment they believe. (Abe believed God & it was accounted for righteousness, no water immersion, no works). But a number of years later, after he had been saved & declared righteous, when he did an act of obedience in offering up Isaac, that act declared Abe righteous.

So salvation is to whosoever believes, & the only must I do for salvation.
Justification is a different topic, very related, as it is freely given for believing but also after being saved good works declare a man righteous (they don't save).
 
A

Alligator

Guest
So Alligator maintains that only the immersed go to Heaven?

So or Alligator all the Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopalians [& other denominationals] who happen to trust Christ as Savior, but were sprinkled as babies and die without being actually being water-baptized (as defined by dipping, dunking, immersing)?

Alligator is saying that they are roasted in the Lake of Fire with weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth for being sprinkled instead of immersed?
AND I TOLD YOU THAT IM NOT THE JUDGE. But I would not want to meet God on judgment day knowing I had refused to obey him.
 
A

Alligator

Guest
I guess Alligator's claim is that if you are sprinkled & not immersed, you go to hell, even if you trusted Christ as Savior.



But justifies is not the same as saved.

Whosoever believes implies faith alone results in salvation.

Justification is not = to salvation. Justification is a declaration that a man is righteous. This is freely given to all believers the moment they believe. (Abe believed God & it was accounted for righteousness, no water immersion, no works). But a number of years later, after he had been saved & declared righteous, when he did an act of obedience in offering up Isaac, that act declared Abe righteous.

So salvation is to whosoever believes, & the only must I do for salvation.
Justification is a different topic, very related, as it is freely given for believing but also after being saved good works declare a man righteous (they don't save).
Oh, so you believe you can be justified and still not be saved,? One can be righteous and still not be saved??
 
A

Alligator

Guest
I guess Alligator's claim is that if you are sprinkled & not immersed, you go to hell, even if you trusted Christ as Savior.



But justifies is not the same as saved.

Whosoever believes implies faith alone results in salvation.

Justification is not = to salvation. Justification is a declaration that a man is righteous. This is freely given to all believers the moment they believe. (Abe believed God & it was accounted for righteousness, no water immersion, no works). But a number of years later, after he had been saved & declared righteous, when he did an act of obedience in offering up Isaac, that act declared Abe righteous.

So salvation is to whosoever believes, & the only must I do for salvation.
Justification is a different topic, very related, as it is freely given for believing but also after being saved good works declare a man righteous (they don't save).
Trust in Christ as savior is your little pet phrase. It is not found In the Bible.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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I guess Alligator's claim is that if you are sprinkled & not immersed, you go to hell, even if you trusted Christ as Savior.



But justifies is not the same as saved.

Whosoever believes implies faith alone results in salvation.

Justification is not = to salvation. Justification is a declaration that a man is righteous. This is freely given to all believers the moment they believe. (Abe believed God & it was accounted for righteousness, no water immersion, no works). But a number of years later, after he had been saved & declared righteous, when he did an act of obedience in offering up Isaac, that act declared Abe righteous.

So salvation is to whosoever believes, & the only must I do for salvation.
Justification is a different topic, very related, as it is freely given for believing but also after being saved good works declare a man righteous (they don't save).
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Straw man nonsense or delusion.

As you astutely said, salvation of demons is not taught in the Bible & irrelevant. There is no such thing. Neither does BELIEF THAT (belief of mere facts) save.

The Savior must be trusted.

So have you sent all the sprinkled to Hell, Newb?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
I guess Alligator's claim is that if you are sprinkled & not immersed, you go to hell, even if you believed in the Son of God (not merely in the sense of believing facts, but in the sense of trusting Him for salvation).

Whosoever believes implies faith alone results in salvation.

Trust in Christ as savior is your little pet phrase. It is not found In the Bible.
Trust in Christ for salvation is found over & over in the Bible. Trusting Him in the sense of "Savior," instead of mere factual belief, is the issue.

Since believe/belief is used sometimes just for believing facts (as illustrated by satan's belief), it needs to be made clear that saving faith (belief) is trusting in the Son of God who is described as follows:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. It is clear that trusting the Lord Jesus is trusting in the Savior Who brings salvation.

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. pisteuo = trust.

For whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (calling Christ YHWH) shall be saved.

Ps 37

Commit thy way unto YHWH
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
6 And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.



Ps 78:21

"Therefore, YWHW heard, and was wroth;
And a fire was kindled against Jacob,
And anger also went up against Israel;
22 Because they believed not in God,
And trusted not in his salvation.

John 4:42:

and they said to the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy speaking: for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Saviour of the world.

To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is to trust Him as your Savior.


Jer 39:18

18 For I will surely save thee, and thou shalt not fall by the sword, but thy life shall be for a prey unto thee; because thou hast put thy trust in me, saith YHWH.

Isaiah 12:2

2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for Jehovah, even Jehovah, is my strength and song; and he is become my salvation.

2 Chron 13:18

18 Thus the children of Israel were brought under at that time, and the children of Judah prevailed, because they relied upon Jehovah, the God of their fathers.

11 And Asa cried unto Jehovah his God, and said, Jehovah, there is none besides thee to help, between the mighty and him that hath no strength: help us, O Jehovah our God; for we rely on thee, and in thy name are we come against this multitude. O Jehovah, thou art our God; let not man prevail against thee.

7 And at that time Hanani the seer came to Asa king of Judah, and said unto him, Because thou hast relied on the king of Syria, and hast not relied on YHWH thy God, therefore is the host of the king of Syria escaped out of thy hand. 8 Were not the Ethiopians and the Lubim a huge host, with chariots and horsemen exceeding many? yet, because thou didst rely on YHWH, he delivered them into thy hand.

Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help, and rely on horses, and trust in chariots because they are many, and in horsemen because they are very strong, but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek YWHW!

Jer 30:10

he that walketh in darkness, and hath no light, let him trust in the name of YHWH, and rely upon his God.

1 Chron 5

20 And they were helped against them, and the Hagrites were delivered into their hand, and all that were with them; for they cried to God in the battle, and he was entreated of them, because they put their trust in him.

Ps 13

But I have trusted in thy lovingkindness;
My heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.
6 I will sing unto YHWH,
Because he hath dealt bountifully with me.

Ps 31

He is our help and our shield.
21 For our heart shall rejoice in him,
Because we have trusted in his holy name.

Ps 78

Therefore Jehovah heard, and was wroth;
And a fire was kindled against Jacob,
And anger also went up against Israel;
22 Because they believed not in God,
And trusted not in his salvation.

Ps 115

O Israel, trust thou in YHWH:
He is their help and their shield.
10 O house of Aaron, trust ye in YHWH:
He is their help and their shield.
11 Ye that fear YHWH, trust in YHWH:
He is their help and their shield.

Prov 3

Trust in YHWH with all thy heart,
And lean not upon thine own understanding:
In all thy ways acknowledge him,
And he will direct thy paths.

Prov 29

The fear of man bringeth a snare;
But whoso putteth his trust in YHWH shall be safe.

Isa 12

2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for YHWH, even YHWH, is my strength and song; and he is become my salvation.

Isa 26

Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee; because he trusteth in thee. 4 Trust ye in YHWH forever; for in YHWH, even YHWH, is an everlasting rock.

Jer 17

7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in Jehovah, and whose trust Jehovah is. 8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots by the river, and shall not fear when heat cometh, but its leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

Jer 39

But I will deliver thee in that day, saith Jehovah; and thou shalt not be given into the hand of the men of whom thou art afraid. 18 For I will surely save thee, and thou shalt not fall by the sword, but thy life shall be for a prey unto thee; because thou hast put thy trust in me, saith Jehovah.

Dan 6

So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no manner of hurt was found upon him, because he had trusted in his God.
 
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Straw man nonsense or delusion.

As you astutely said, salvation of demons is not taught in the Bible & irrelevant. There is no such thing. Neither does BELIEF THAT (belief of mere facts) save.

The Savior must be trusted.

So have you sent all the sprinkled to Hell, Newb?
you call scripture...Straw man nonsense or delusion......the point is devils believe and tremble and they are not saved ...you believe and do nothing not even tremble how can you be saved? you claim trust but you are not taking the step on the water....
I sent no one to hell they took your advice and chose not to enter into the kingdom.....