Just a thought ....

[Scotth1960]

Friends, Just a thought. Is there such a thing as hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is a sin that certain

people can fall into, if they are not careful. I am not without sin, so I am not casting

aspersion against anyone who commits that sin. It just seems strange to me, just a

thought, for those Protestants who get into a dire ire over images. They say that icons

amount to idolatry, and against the second of the ten commandments. And thus they

forbid images to be made of Christ, Mary, the Saints, the angels, the Cross, the

Resurrection of Christ, scenes from Christ's life, any of the saints of the New Testament,

whether Saint Andrew, Saint John, Saint Paul, Saint Peter, and so on. But then they make

icons and examples of their own Protestant Reformers. Not only do they venerate and

honor their own theologians and Reformers of Western Christendom, such as Martin

Luther, John Calvin, John Knox, and so on. They actually make icons, images, of Luther,

Calvin and the other Protestant teachers. Even while forbidding the Orthodox Church to

make images of the NT Saints and the Virgin, etc. They preach against Orthodoxy, but

they do not follow their own rule of no images whatsoever. They make paintings and

drawings of Martin Luther and John Calvin and the other heroes of the Protestant

Reformation. They forbid the veneration and honoring of the Orthdox Saints, Peter, Paul,

John, Andrew, James, Matthew, and so on. But they extol and honor and praise as great

reformers as preachers of what they say is "the Gospel" in making images of Luther and

Calvin and so on. I do not understand their hypocrisy. I don't understand why they don't

confess and admit they are contradicting themselves, and their iconoclasm has limits.

They make exception for their own Protestant heroes: Luther, Calvin, and so on. Granted,

the Lutherans aren't so gung ho about forbidding images. The Calvinists especially like to

forbid icons in their "churches". What no one is advocating in the Orthodox Church is

idolatry or worship of icons. There is a difference between honor and veneration, and

adoration and worship. Protestants should understand this distinction, for they greatly

honor and venerate Martin Luther and John Calvin, but they don't worship these men.

Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Friends,

Recommended reading, March 31, 2011.

On Protestantism, a general reference book that is fairly

straightforward and unbiased

and neither promotes nor denigrates the views of Luther. In:

Hendrix, Scott H. (2010). Martin Luther: A Very Short

Introduction. New York: Oxford University Press.

The following tract was very influential in changing my mind

to an Eastern Orthodox Christian point-of-view.

See: Stratman, Chrysostomos H. (1949). To the Orthodox

Christians of the United States of America. Jordanville, NY:

Holy Trinity Monastery. From Cincinnati, Ohio, in 1949 AD.

Take care. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

What, God said to put images of

Abraham and Issac and Jacob. Moses (who gave the law) Arron (the

first High priest) Heck while we are at it. what about Noah and Adam

and Job.

Of course not. That is what Pagans did. God had the jews create an ark

in a way which shows how God will deal with mankind at the mercy

seat. It was not so we could look at angels and remember them, praise

them, or whatever one does with pictures.

As for the NT temple?? God destroyed the temple. Because he no

longer was restricted to a building to deal with mankind. He also did

away with the priesthood, which never could take away sin, but was a

shadow of things to come (Christ is now the only priest we need) The

NT also states my body is the temple. Because God deals with me

personally through the HS who is in me.

Now should we gather together as the body of Christ. Yes, Yet they did

not have temples in the NT, they met in peoples houses.

Pagans met in temples filled with images of men or Gods they

venerated.


These images are not the same, and were used for a purpose.

See above!

Yes, God deals with each of us personally? How? Through the

ministry of others. If Christ is the only priest we need, will

Christ come and baptize us? Only through another priest.

But Christ demands His Church baptize people. Clearly, other

priests beside Christ Himself as the only High Priest and God

and Saviour, are needed. Christ says so in Matthew 28:19.

Even Protestants rely on ministers to give them their KJV

Bible. So, it is interceded for by the translators of the Bible

into English. After all, Matthew 28:19 can't happen by a

person alone. It takes other persons to make other persons

disciples. Some people serve as ministers of grace. Grace is

freely available to all, but it isn't just a "me alone with Jesus"

and "I don't need nobody else but Jesus" trip. We need each

other. We need other Christians. We wouldn't even be

talking to each other in this if this were'nt so. But,

unfortunately, there are a wide variety of differing,

sometimes conflicting opinions, on what the Bible says and

what the Bible means. Go figure. In Erie PA Scott R.

Harrington

PS It was Charlemagne who was relying on a faulty Latin

translation of the Greek (the Latins were ignorant of the

Greek language; the Greeks were mostly ignorant of the Latin

language), that Charlemagne condemned icons as idolatry

and worship. All based on the wrong Latin verb for venerate

(as opposed to adore or worship). Christians don't worship

images (icons); the respect (venerate) them. Big difference!

As individuals, you venerate and respect images of your wife

and children and parents. Same thing with church icons.

It isn't worship. It's respect for the persons being depicted in

pictures. But Charlemagne committed a big sin by insisting

that the Latin-speaking Frankish Church (the Frankish-

speaking West Roman Church) add the word "FILIOQUE" to

the Creed in Latin (in defiance of Jesus Christ in John 15:26

and in the Creed of Constantinople I in 381 AD).

Charlemagne, in his IGNORANCE, even accused the Byzantine

Greeks of DELETING the words "AND THE SON" (FILIOQUE)

from the Greek Creed. Big deal! The word "kai Huiou" (or

however you spell "and (from) the Son" in Greek!) was never

in any Christian version of the Nicene Creed. "FILIOQUE" is

HERESY: PAGAN AND POLYTHEISTIC, and not TRINITARIAN.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, God deals with each of us personally? How? Through the

ministry of others. If Christ is the only priest we need, will

Christ come and baptize us?

John the baptist made it clear, He baptises with water, But Jesus will baptize with the HS. Jesus promised after he left that we will be baptized with the HS. Peter witnessed this baptism with the Gentiles.

Yes Jesus can come to baptize us, with the HS. Which will save us.

Only through another priest.

A priest can only get us wet. The HS through Jesus can wash our sins away

But Christ demands His Church baptize people.

Yes he did. As God demanded that the OT priest circumcise people. Yet as Paul made it clear, this physical circumcision did nothing to make someone clean, It was our spiritual circumcision done by the hands of God which made us clean by being buried with him in baptism, after which we were raised with him through faith, all of this being the work of God, who raised him from the dead (not a priest)


col 2: 11 - 12 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

By the way, A warning is given for giving credit to anyone the work which is performed by God.

Clearly, other priests beside Christ Himself as the only High Priest and God and Saviour, are needed. Christ says so in Matthew 28:19.

No. Christ told them to go make DISCIPLES. then BAPTIZE THEM.

Why? so they can go and make disciples of others, who in turn can go and make disciples of others. This is how the church is to grow. And nowhere did he mention priest in this verse or passage.

Even Protestants rely on ministers to give them their KJV

Bible. So, it is interceded for by the translators of the Bible

into English. After all, Matthew 28:19 can't happen by a

person alone. It takes other persons to make other persons

disciples. Some people serve as ministers of grace. Grace is

freely available to all, but it isn't just a "me alone with Jesus"

and "I don't need nobody else but Jesus" trip. We need each

other. We need other Christians. We wouldn't even be

talking to each other in this if this were'nt so. But,

unfortunately, there are a wide variety of differing,

sometimes conflicting opinions, on what the Bible says and

what the Bible means. Go figure. In Erie PA Scott R.

Harrington

I find it amazing, you who protest the catholic church, call me a protestant!

Second. As far as salvation and eternal life goes. It is "you and jesus"

as far as ourt christian lives go., Your right, we do need each other. But salvation can not be gained by the help of anyone else. Only your faith in Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

PS It was Charlemagne who was relying on a faulty Latin

translation of the Greek (the Latins were ignorant of the

Greek language; the Greeks were mostly ignorant of the Latin

language), that Charlemagne condemned icons as idolatry

and worship. All based on the wrong Latin verb for venerate

(as opposed to adore or worship). Christians don't worship

images (icons); the respect (venerate) them. Big difference!

As individuals, you venerate and respect images of your wife

and children and parents. Same thing with church icons.

It isn't worship. It's respect for the persons being depicted in

pictures. But Charlemagne committed a big sin by insisting

that the Latin-speaking Frankish Church (the Frankish-

speaking West Roman Church) add the word "FILIOQUE" to

the Creed in Latin (in defiance of Jesus Christ in John 15:26

and in the Creed of Constantinople I in 381 AD).

Charlemagne, in his IGNORANCE, even accused the Byzantine

Greeks of DELETING the words "AND THE SON" (FILIOQUE)

from the Greek Creed. Big deal! The word "kai Huiou" (or

however you spell "and (from) the Son" in Greek!) was never

in any Christian version of the Nicene Creed. "FILIOQUE" is

HERESY: PAGAN AND POLYTHEISTIC, and not TRINITARIAN.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

I am sorry. I do not get my doctrine from charlemagne, or the catholic church. I get it from Christ. who took the time to talk through men, and give me his word, which he promised would never fade away.

I pray you do not do as catholics and say if it were not for them I would have no bible. I have the Bible because God promised I would have it. Not because they gave it to me.

Some people like to take credit for the work of God. Even paul did not do this.

 

[Scotth1960]

John the baptist made it clear, He baptises with water, But Jesus will baptize with the HS. Jesus promised after he left that we will be baptized with the HS. Peter witnessed this baptism with the Gentiles.

Yes Jesus can come to baptize us, with the HS. Which will save us.


A priest can only get us wet. The HS through Jesus can wash our sins away



Yes he did. As God demanded that the OT priest circumcise people. Yet as Paul made it clear, this physical circumcision did nothing to make someone clean, It was our spiritual circumcision done by the hands of God which made us clean by being buried with him in baptism, after which we were raised with him through faith, all of this being the work of God, who raised him from the dead (not a priest)


col 2: 11 - 12 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

By the way, A warning is given for giving credit to anyone the work which is performed by God.


No. Christ told them to go make DISCIPLES. then BAPTIZE THEM.

Why? so they can go and make disciples of others, who in turn can go and make disciples of others. This is how the church is to grow. And nowhere did he mention priest in this verse or passage.




I find it amazing, you who protest the catholic church, call me a protestant!

I don't protest the catholic church. The catholic church is the "one holy catholic and apostolic church" of the Orthodox Christians, and has not believed in the phrase "Filioque", while she was still in communion with papal Rome in 806 AD, Pope St. Leo III forbad the Filioque. Later, Rome fell into schism between 1014 AD and 1054 AD, and further estranged from the Church in 1204 AD by the 4th crusade. Not everyone who protests against Roman catholicism is a protestant. I protest against the errors of Martin Luther and John Calvin. I just naturally assume that most people who write to this website are Protestants, as Protestants ARE in a MAJORITY in both USA and Canada, and throughout MOST OF THE WESTERN WORLD. In Erie PA Scott Harrington



Second. As far as salvation and eternal life goes. It is "you and jesus"

as far as ourt christian lives go., Your right, we do need each other. But salvation can not be gained by the help of anyone else.

(What about the words of Saint Paul and the other people who use the word "save". Faith in Christ comes in context of the communion of saints, and we are converted by the Holy Spirit by the preaching and ministry of other Christians. We don't convert in a "church of one member
". Our faith in Christ is as members of a large Body of Christ of many Christians. Only our faith in Christ saves, OUR faith, not an isolated person's individual "my faith". In Erie Scott)


Only your faith in Christ.

 

[Scotth1960]

I am sorry. I do not get my doctrine from charlemagne, or the catholic church. I get it from Christ. who took the time to talk through men, and give me his word, which he promised would never fade away.

I pray you do not do as catholics and say if it were not for them I would have no bible. I have the Bible because God promised I would have it. Not because they gave it to me.

Some people like to take credit for the work of God. Even paul did not do this.


Friend, Yes he did. He said he was "God's co-worker". The Holy Spirit works through other Christians as the body of the Church of the apostles of Christ. In Erie Scott


The Orthodox Catholic Church (Greek Orthodox Church) without Charlemagne gave you your BIble. The KJV which is the text which produced any number of revisions in Western Christendom came from the work or Erasmus among the Roman Catholics, and he got his Byzantine Greek texts from the majority of Greek texts in the CHURCH OF CONSTANTINOPLE, the GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH. So, as the Mother of all other churches, the original TRUE CHURCH is the GOC. She gave to Western Christendom her Bible; Western Christendom SPLINTERED AND FRACTURED, and the PROTESTANTS DELETED WHOLE BOOKS FROM THE OT BIBLE. The RCC kept MOST of the original Greek OT. Take care. In Erie PA Scott

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Orthodox Catholic Church (Greek Orthodox Church) without Charlemagne gave you your BIble. The KJV which is the text which produced any number of revisions in Western Christendom came from the work or Erasmus among the Roman Catholics, and he got his Byzantine Greek texts from the majority of Greek texts in the CHURCH OF CONSTANTINOPLE,

1. I do not use the KJV, Nor do I trust any english text as they all have errors. and thus questionable passage I consult the origional text.

2. Even if all bibles came from these translations. They still did not give me the bible. GODS DID. They gave me a TRANSLATION. A HUGE difference

3. Again, Taking credit for the work of God is dangerous. do we wish to go this route? I don't. I pray you do not either.

the GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH. So, as the Mother of all other churches, the original TRUE CHURCH is the GOC. She gave to Western Christendom her Bible; Western Christendom SPLINTERED AND FRACTURED, and the PROTESTANTS DELETED WHOLE BOOKS FROM THE OT BIBLE. The RCC kept MOST of the original Greek OT. Take care. In Erie PA Scott

1. God gave me the Bible. A church or part of a church may have translated the bible for me, but they did not giev me the word. GOD DID.

2. The books removed were removed because although they have wonderful historical significance (I use maccabees alot for this reason) they also have things in them which contradict the rest of scripture. (such as in Maccabees when the jewsih priests are making penance so God will protect them, even though no where in the law has God commanded any such thing for penance to be given so God will protect them) Gods word can not contradict. If God said do this in the law. and later people are doing something else. they have added to "the law" and can not be taken as truth.

 

[Scotth1960]

S

1. I do not use the KJV, Nor do I trust any english text as they all have errors. and thus questionable passage I consult the origional text.

2. Even if all bibles came from these translations. They still did not give me the bible. GODS DID. They gave me a TRANSLATION. A HUGE difference

3. Again, Taking credit for the work of God is dangerous. do we wish to go this route? I don't. I pray you do not either.



1. God gave me the Bible. A church or part of a church may have translated the bible for me, but they did not giev me the word. GOD DID.

2. The books removed were removed because although they have wonderful historical significance (I use maccabees alot for this reason) they also have things in them which contradict the rest of scripture. (such as in Maccabees when the jewsih priests are making penance so God will protect them, even though no where in the law has God commanded any such thing for penance to be given so God will protect them) Gods word can not contradict. If God said do this in the law. and later people are doing something else. they have added to "the law" and can not be taken as truth.

So you are saying the Bible fell directly

from God out of the sky (heaven) into your house?

Even the Greek texts you use were printed

and published by men. You are relying on

some other men to identify what the

original Greek words of the NT are, aren't you?

The idea that your "Word of God" comes

directly from God, and without some

churchintercession, is a great myth, and a

superstition. God speaks in the NT

through humanmen, albeit, human men

from God: the 12 apostles, the NT writers,

through the Greek

church fathers. Latin church fathers too.

Originally. In Erie Scott

 

[eternally-gratefull]

S

So you are saying the Bible fell directly

from God out of the sky (heaven) into your house?

Even the Greek texts you use were printed

and published by men. You are relying on

some other men to identify what the

original Greek words of the NT are, aren't you?

The idea that your "Word of God" comes

directly from God, and without some

churchintercession, is a great myth, and a

superstition. God speaks in the NT

through humanmen, albeit, human men

from God: the 12 apostles, the NT writers,

through the Greek

church fathers. Latin church fathers too.

Originally. In Erie Scott

So God did not give us the bible. Ok Thanks scott.

I will give credit to where credit is due.

 

[Scotth1960]

So God did not give us the bible. Ok Thanks scott.

I will give credit to where credit is due.

Of course God gave you the Bible. You didn't

understand what I said. He gave you the Bible

through (other)


men of God. Not directly to you personally

in a burning

bush revelation of God speaking, like Moses

had. Correct?

In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course God gave you the Bible. You didn't
understand what I said. He gave you the Bible
through (other) men of God. Not directly to you personally in a burning bush revelation of God speaking, like Moses had. Correct?

In Erie PA Scott Harrington

well I will give ya this. I have not got this repentant view from a catholic before.

It still does not prove who was the church. The jews Got their scripture from their fathers. they twisted Gods word.