****Justified DIVORCE****
- Thread starter Pickles2021
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
There is intention also, at least in Matthew 5 in the sermon on the mount. He who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. The Greek word 'pros' is there.
The word for 'lust' has to do with coveting. We can see this in how the Hebrew was used in the Greek Septuagint that was in use at the time. I know nothing about the wording that requires _intention_ when it comes to coveting, but many or most sins to require some sort of decision. Paul warned against yielding ones members to sin.
Why do I mention this? At least in the case of attraction and sexual desire, young people... or I can say young men because I used to be one... may often feel attracted to members of the opposite sex. Many men have to desire to look more if they see a pretty girl. If a beautiful woman in a bikini falls through the roof into a man's field of vision of a Christian young man and he is attracted to her and finds her appealing when he sees her, that does not mean he sinned. (Let's say the woman lands on pillows and is completely unharmed.) If he looks at her with intention to lust, then sin becomes an issue.
And is lust purely sexual? The command is 'thou shalt not covet.' I suppose one could covet his neighbor's wife thinking how kind she is and because she bakes great cookies, wishing she were his own. Wouldn't that still be coveting, but for different reasons?
I read the Shepherd of Hermas-- parts of it, haven't finished it it-- when I was young, and in it a man saw a sweet Christian young woman and thought how blessed a man would be to have her as a wife. There could have been some sexual attraction in it. But the 'shepherd' figure in the story rebukes him for his lustful thoughts. After reading that, I began to think about this. If I met a woman I wanted to marry, could I desire to marry her without desiring her to be mine, and was that coveting? Is it possible to marry without lusting since lust is not limited to sex. I believe young people who marry can be pure. As a young man, I had to struggle to avert my gaze. After I met the woman who would be my wife, that seemed like less of a struggle, and I wasn't looking at her and thinking about sex. But I did want her to be my wife, and I tried to go about it in an appropriate way, asking her parents and such, waiting until marriage.
But back to the issue of intention, there are people, young men, at least, who want to keep their minds pure. Some of them may confuse attraction for actual sin or lust. At least the 'adultery in his heart' verse is written about a man who does so intentionally looking with lust, not someone who happens to see a woman he finds attractive. It may be freeing to some men to realize the difference.
The word for 'lust' has to do with coveting. We can see this in how the Hebrew was used in the Greek Septuagint that was in use at the time. I know nothing about the wording that requires _intention_ when it comes to coveting, but many or most sins to require some sort of decision. Paul warned against yielding ones members to sin.
Why do I mention this? At least in the case of attraction and sexual desire, young people... or I can say young men because I used to be one... may often feel attracted to members of the opposite sex. Many men have to desire to look more if they see a pretty girl. If a beautiful woman in a bikini falls through the roof into a man's field of vision of a Christian young man and he is attracted to her and finds her appealing when he sees her, that does not mean he sinned. (Let's say the woman lands on pillows and is completely unharmed.) If he looks at her with intention to lust, then sin becomes an issue.
And is lust purely sexual? The command is 'thou shalt not covet.' I suppose one could covet his neighbor's wife thinking how kind she is and because she bakes great cookies, wishing she were his own. Wouldn't that still be coveting, but for different reasons?
I read the Shepherd of Hermas-- parts of it, haven't finished it it-- when I was young, and in it a man saw a sweet Christian young woman and thought how blessed a man would be to have her as a wife. There could have been some sexual attraction in it. But the 'shepherd' figure in the story rebukes him for his lustful thoughts. After reading that, I began to think about this. If I met a woman I wanted to marry, could I desire to marry her without desiring her to be mine, and was that coveting? Is it possible to marry without lusting since lust is not limited to sex. I believe young people who marry can be pure. As a young man, I had to struggle to avert my gaze. After I met the woman who would be my wife, that seemed like less of a struggle, and I wasn't looking at her and thinking about sex. But I did want her to be my wife, and I tried to go about it in an appropriate way, asking her parents and such, waiting until marriage.
But back to the issue of intention, there are people, young men, at least, who want to keep their minds pure. Some of them may confuse attraction for actual sin or lust. At least the 'adultery in his heart' verse is written about a man who does so intentionally looking with lust, not someone who happens to see a woman he finds attractive. It may be freeing to some men to realize the difference.
-
2
- Show all
Porneia is 'whorring.' A married man could hypothetically sleep with a prostitute. Wouldn't that be fornication? 'Prostitution' seems to be one of the meanings of the word.
Of course there are plenty of 'free whores', male and female in our society who offer the same services at no charge. That's maybe a bit crude, but thought provoking thing to ask people on the fence about fornication is, 'Which do you think is lower class, a prostitute who charges $100 or one who charges 25 cents?' Many people would say the one who charges 25 cents, but a lot of fornicators charge $0. It's the same sin as engaging in prostitution.
There is also an approach to Acts 15 which interprets it in line with Jewish thought. A generation or two later, in the Mishneh, Torah scholars, within Judaism and outside of the church, would come to a determination as to whether Gentiles who had not been circumcised could be righteous. The idea was that men relate to God through covenant, but Gentiles and all mankind have a covenant through Noah. So they were not to eat parts off of living animals-- along the lines of abstain from things strangled and from blood. These scholars found things that Gentiles were not supposed to do according to Torah and came up with seven Noachide principles including having courts of justice, not fornicating, not committing idolatry.
The debate could have been going on for generations before the words of a few scholars were spoken and later recorded in the Mishneh Torah. It may be that James' words in Acts 2 appeal to the idea that Gentiles should not do things forbidden in the Old Testament. So we see abstain from things strangled, which aligns with what God required of Noah and presumably all of us descendants. In Leviticus, there is a long list of sins including various sexual sins, not just sex between man and woman before marriage (and not including that). Gentiles were driven out of the land for these sins. It could be that 'fornication' in scripture includes this long list of sins.
Of course there are plenty of 'free whores', male and female in our society who offer the same services at no charge. That's maybe a bit crude, but thought provoking thing to ask people on the fence about fornication is, 'Which do you think is lower class, a prostitute who charges $100 or one who charges 25 cents?' Many people would say the one who charges 25 cents, but a lot of fornicators charge $0. It's the same sin as engaging in prostitution.
There is also an approach to Acts 15 which interprets it in line with Jewish thought. A generation or two later, in the Mishneh, Torah scholars, within Judaism and outside of the church, would come to a determination as to whether Gentiles who had not been circumcised could be righteous. The idea was that men relate to God through covenant, but Gentiles and all mankind have a covenant through Noah. So they were not to eat parts off of living animals-- along the lines of abstain from things strangled and from blood. These scholars found things that Gentiles were not supposed to do according to Torah and came up with seven Noachide principles including having courts of justice, not fornicating, not committing idolatry.
The debate could have been going on for generations before the words of a few scholars were spoken and later recorded in the Mishneh Torah. It may be that James' words in Acts 2 appeal to the idea that Gentiles should not do things forbidden in the Old Testament. So we see abstain from things strangled, which aligns with what God required of Noah and presumably all of us descendants. In Leviticus, there is a long list of sins including various sexual sins, not just sex between man and woman before marriage (and not including that). Gentiles were driven out of the land for these sins. It could be that 'fornication' in scripture includes this long list of sins.
Yes, I see what you mean. Personally, I don't believe so much in addressing the issues of the day. I'd rather teach the fundamental principles of who we are in Christ. Abortion, racism etc. are wicked but they are just symptoms of a sin sick society.
The letter to the Ephesians is my guide. It starts off with glory to Jesus, then who the believer is in Christ, and then how we should live in the light of who we are in Christ. If the questions arise from members of the congregation, for sure we need to answer appropriately. As far as I'm concerned, the truth of the gospel is offensive. I don't set out to offend, but people take offence even if I do not intend it.
Further to the truth of submission, it is contentious indeed. Many people have no idea why submission matters. Submission is essential within the church as well as the family. In an age where rebellion is rife, selfishness the norm and love is growing cold, the church should be a beacon of light, life and hope. One day.......
The letter to the Ephesians is my guide. It starts off with glory to Jesus, then who the believer is in Christ, and then how we should live in the light of who we are in Christ. If the questions arise from members of the congregation, for sure we need to answer appropriately. As far as I'm concerned, the truth of the gospel is offensive. I don't set out to offend, but people take offence even if I do not intend it.
Further to the truth of submission, it is contentious indeed. Many people have no idea why submission matters. Submission is essential within the church as well as the family. In an age where rebellion is rife, selfishness the norm and love is growing cold, the church should be a beacon of light, life and hope. One day.......