KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE VS. MODERN ENGLISH BIBLES

[trofimus]

Isaiah 14:12 Commentaries: "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Weakened the nations... what would that mean regarding satan and what would that mean regarding babylonian kings?

 

[KJV1611]

It’s called figurative language. But Lucifer was a Latin word that got into a Hebrew(Aramaic?) text. Lucifer should have never been inserted.

Of course it's figurative language, the figurative "light bearer", the figurative son of the morning, fell from the figurative heaven. Figurative language doesn't dismiss what the actually text says, it just conceals the identities. Someone or something literally fell from a figurative heaven.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Isaiah 14...

you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:[verse 4]

If this is about Satan’s fall, that I believe happened before He created all we see, how can anyone taunt him?

 

[Gabriel2020]

This is Satan himself in the flesh . The abomination of desolation. Only he can put himself in the temple of God and call himself God because he will have power that no other man can obtain. He is the only one that can make the earth tremble, and shake kingdoms. His flesh will go down to the pits of hell like all the past kings of the nations, and they will know him when he arrive in hell.

 

[KJV1611]

I respect them for their professionality and knowledge in this field.

But of course, they can be wrong. Any evidence they are?

I've seen plenty of evidence that 1 John 5:7 was always a part of the bible so yes I would say there is evidence to say they are wrong.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Of course it's figurative language, the figurative "light bearer", the figurative son of the morning, fell from the figurative heaven. Figurative language doesn't dismiss what the actually text says, it just conceals the identities. Someone or something literally fell from a figurative heaven.

Read those commentaries. Plus, read my last post. Verse 4 says to take up a taunt against the king of Babylon. No one could taunt him when he fell. Lucifer is not Satan, not even remotely close to it. It’s a bad translation of a Latin word that got blended into Hebrew(Aramaic?) texts.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Weakened the nations... what would that mean regarding satan and what would that mean regarding babylonian kings?

I think Babylon was a huge nation that was really good at destroying other nations.

 

[trofimus]

I've seen plenty of evidence that 1 John 5:7 was always a part of the bible so yes I would say there is evidence to say they are wrong.

Well, 1J 5:7 and 1J 5:8 were always in the Bible.

The question is what is the proper reading, what is the original text these verses should contain.

The reading of the KJV is not present in Greek and is only in (late) Latin. And in late Greek manuscripts translated from Latin.

 

[KJV1611]

Isaiah 14...

you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:[verse 4]

If this is about Satan’s fall, that I believe happened before He created all we see, how can anyone taunt him?

Jesus said Satan fell right here.

[h=1]Luke 10:17-18 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.[/FONT]

 

[trofimus]

I think Babylon was a huge nation that was really good at destroying other nations.

I am not sure now, but if I remember correctly, Babylon was not destroying other nations, it was incorporating them into their empire, similar to Roman empire practice later...?

 

[KJV1611]

Well, 1J 5:7 and 1J 5:8 were always in the Bible.

The question is what is the proper eading, what is the original text these verses should contain.

The reading of the KJV is not present in Greek and is only in (late) Latin. And in late Greek manuscripts translated from Latin.

You're assuming that God preserved his word in the original languages. No copies of the orignals doesn't mean anything as far as the word of God goes.

 

[trofimus]

You're assuming that God preserved his word in the original languages. No copies of the orignals doesn't mean anything as far as the word of God goes.

You are assuming that God did not preserve His word even in the original languages and suddenly has given it perfectly in 17th century to some far away island. This is a hard thing to swallow.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jesus said Satan fell right here.

Luke 10:17-18 King James Version (KJV)

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

I am not thinking Satan fell that moment, but rather that Jesus saw his fall. He was in the Garden as a serpent centuries before the Christ game in the flesh.

It said to take up a taunt against the king of Babylon. When he would fall, they would taunt him. When Satan fell, no one could taunt him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You're assuming that God preserved his word in the original languages. No copies of the orignals doesn't mean anything as far as the word of God goes.

If He didn’t preserve them in their original languages, how did the KJV translators get those Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek mss?

 

[SovereignGrace]

In the first three verses it says nations will take Israel captive. But then those nations will become Israel’s servants. The Babylonian king will be cut down and ppl will taunt this game once mighty king. It’s about a once mighty Babylonian king.

 

[trofimus]

In the first three verses it says nations will take Israel captive. But then those nations will become Israel’s servants. The Babylonian king will be cut down and ppl will taunt this game once mighty king. It’s about a once mighty Babylonian king.

When did Babylon become Israel´s servant?

 

[SovereignGrace]

When did Babylon become Israel´s servant?

Did they after they were destroyed?

 

[trofimus]

Did they after they were destroyed?

I do not think so. It was destroyed by Persian empire and therefore Persia became dominant after Babylon.

"Babylon was founded by Nabopolassar(625B.C.), consolidated by Nebuchadnezzar(604-562), and destroyed by Cyrus the Persian(538).

It lasted almost exactly seventy years and the period of its existence was almost the same period as the Babylonian captivity of the Jews(606-536).

With its destruction was fulfilled the prophecy of Jeremiah: 'The Lord has stirred up the fury of the kings of Medes; because his device is against Babylon to destroy it; for it is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance for his temple'(Jer.51:11,24; Isa. 13:17).

But at the same time with the fall of Babylon the whole world rule of the Semitic race collapsed permanently(538B.C.). "

Erich Sauer, The Dawn of World Redemption

 

[KJV1611]

Isaiah 14...

you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:[verse 4]

If this is about Satan’s fall, that I believe happened before He created all we see, how can anyone taunt him?

It's not a taunt, it's a proverb or parable against Satan. Satan's power was broken when Jesus came. The 70 came back and said even the devils are subject to us through your name and Jesus responded to that by saying he saw Satan fall from heaven. Why would Jesus respond to an event that happened before creation?

Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from but it doesn't make sense to me for Jesus to reply the way he did if he was talking about pre-creation.

 

[KJV1611]

Read those commentaries. Plus, read my last post. Verse 4 says to take up a taunt against the king of Babylon. No one could taunt him when he fell. Lucifer is not Satan, not even remotely close to it. It’s a bad translation of a Latin word that got blended into Hebrew(Aramaic?) texts.

I read some of the commentaries but I just don't agree with them, there are way too many things in that chapter don't line up with Lucifer being a man.