KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE VS. MODERN ENGLISH BIBLES

[James37]

This seems to contradict words of Jesus:

"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."
Mt 23:9, NIV

The context of Matthew 23 is the religious leaders of the day "upon the earth" (Matthew 23:9). Abraham was not upon the earth at this time thus there is no contradiction.

 

[KJV1611]

I thought it was a given that everybody believed that Abraham is the father of all of us in faith.

 

[trofimus]

The context of Matthew 23 is the religious leaders of the day "upon the earth" (Matthew 23:9). Abraham was not upon the earth at this time thus there is no contradiction.

I think that "on earth" is the opposite of "in heaven" in this sentence.

Therefore your theory does not apply. Its not about "that time", its the opposite of heaven. Or, we can say "humans vs God".

IMHO.

 

[gb9]

I thought it was a given that everybody believed that Abraham is the father of all of us in faith.

come on now, nothing around here is a given! lol!

 

[trofimus]

I thought it was a given that everybody believed that Abraham is the father of all of us in faith.

Do you have any plausible explanation of how it does not contradict the words of Jesus?

 

[James37]

Do you have any plausible explanation of how it does not contradict the words of Jesus?

1. It is in the Old Testament (Genesis 17)
2. It is in the New Testament (Romans 4)
3. Abraham hadn't been "upon the earth" for 2000 years when Jesus spoke those words.
4. The context of Mathew 23 is the religious leaders "upon the earth."

 

[KJV1611]

Do you have any plausible explanation of how it does not contradict the words of Jesus?

There are multiple types of fathers, which type did Jesus mean? It can’t mean all types of Father’s because Paul calls HIMSELF a father of believers. He BEGAT them through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

 

[trofimus]

I thought it was a given that everybody believed that Abraham is the father of all of us in faith.

BTW, I did not say any conclusion.

I also carefully said "it seems to contradict". I am open to some plausible explanations of how to put these two places in order

If we will not be able to find one, I will just postpone it and for the time between I will prefer the teaching of God - Jesus.

 

[KJV1611]

BTW, I did not say any conclusion.

I also carefully said "it seems to contradict". I am open to some plausible explanations of how to put these two places in order

If we will not be able to find one, I will just postpone it and for the time between I will prefer the teaching of God - Jesus.

My point was that Abraham is our father is like one of the most basic of all Christian belief's. When I brought it up I just assumed that everyone knew and accepted that... no offence to you intended at all.

 

[James37]

I think that "on earth" is the opposite of "in heaven" in this sentence.

Therefore your theory does not apply. Its not about "that time", its the opposite of heaven. Or, we can say "humans vs God".

IMHO.

Although true the context of Matthew 23 is the religious leaders of the day who "sit in Moses' seat" (Matthew 23:2)

This statement is clearly aimed at the earthly religious establishment which Abraham is not part of.

 

[trofimus]

There are multiple types of fathers, which type did Jesus mean? It can’t mean all types of Father’s because Paul calls HIMSELF a father of believers. He BEGAT them through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:15 King James Version (KJV)

[FONT=&]15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.[/FONT]

I do not think Paul could spiritually beget (is it the right form of the word?) anybody. Its God´s work.

Paul could only give the message about salvation.

So again, such claims seem to be very contradictory to other Scriptures, IMHO.

---

Would you be OK with calling the one who preached to you the gospel "father" and to say he has begotten you?

 

[KJV1611]

I also assumed that everybody knew and accepted that God himself BEGAT the physical body of Jesus Christ but I have now found out that some don't believe that either.

 

[KJV1611]

I do not think Paul could spiritually beget (is it the right form of the word?) anybody. Its God´s work.

Paul could only give the message about salvation.

So again, such claims seem to be very contradictory to other Scriptures, IMHO.

---

Would you be OK with calling the one who preached to you the gospel "father" and to say he has begotten you?

But the bible says plainly that Paul begat those believers.

 

[trofimus]

But the bible says plainly that Paul begat those believers.

I do not know how to explain this.

Probably some kind of hyperbolic expression?

But I think that Paul must be submitted to Jesus, not Jesus to Paul, so, for now, I will stand by Jesus´s words and will wait for explanation of Paul´s.

 

[KJV1611]

I do not know how to explain this.

Probably some kind of hyperbolic expression?

But I think that Paul must be submitted to Jesus, not Jesus to Paul, so, for now, I will stand by Jesus´s words and will wait for explanation of Paul´s.

It goes back to saved and born again are not the same thing. Paul didn’t save them, God saved them but the words of Paul which is the word of God begat the Christ formed in them.

 

[James37]

I do not know how to explain this.

Probably some kind of hyperbolic expression?

But I think that Paul must be submitted to Jesus, not Jesus to Paul, so, for now, I will stand by Jesus´s words and will wait for explanation of Paul´s.

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.” (1 Corinthians 4:15)


Paul had begotten them in the sense that he had sown the seed of the “gospel” in the them but the seed obviously wasn’t of himself.


“Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness”: (2 Corinthians 9:10)


I am sure the believers Paul was referring to didn’t go around calling him “father.”

 

[KJV1611]

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.” (1 Corinthians 4:15)


Paul had begotten them in the sense that he had sown the seed of the “gospel” in the them but the seed obviously wasn’t of himself.


“Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness”: (2 Corinthians 9:10)


I am sure the believers Paul was referring to didn’t go around calling him “father.”

I agree with this but I think it stops short. Planting seed is the POTENTIAL to begat something but not actually begetting. Check this with below. I would like to get your opinion.

Galatians 4:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

 

[James37]

I agree with this but I think it stops short. Planting seed is the POTENTIAL to begat something but not actually begetting. Check this with below. I would like to get your opinion.

Galatians 4:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

“To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” (Galatians 4:5-6)

Paul begat sons of God not sons of Paul.

“Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” (Galatians 4:7)

An heir of Paul or an heir of God?

“My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,” (Galatians 4:19)

Paul being formed in you or Christ? I think Paul is saying that the seed hasn’t taken root (Christ be formed in you) and he is having to start from scratch because they desire to be under the law (verse 21).

Paul is clearly speaking figuratively in the sense of begetting believers. It is if I planted a plant and said I begat it because I “sowed the seed.” I didn’t sow it in the same sense that I did when I sowed the seed of my children even though in both cases I sowed seed so to speak. Perhaps I am missing something in all of this discussion.

 

[James37]

Planting seed is the POTENTIAL to begat something but not actually begetting.

I would say planting the seed is begetting and the potential for growth. Ultimately it is God who makes the seed grow.

 

[KJV1611]

“To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” (Galatians 4:5-6)

Paul begat sons of God not sons of Paul.

“Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” (Galatians 4:7)

An heir of Paul or an heir of God?

“My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,” (Galatians 4:19)

Paul being formed in you or Christ? I think Paul is saying that the seed hasn’t taken root (Christ be formed in you) and he is having to start from scratch because they desire to be under the law (verse 21).

Paul is clearly speaking figuratively in the sense of begetting believers. It is if I planted a plant and said I begat it because I “sowed the seed.” I didn’t sow it in the same sense that I did when I sowed the seed of my children even though in both cases I sowed seed so to speak. Perhaps I am missing something in all of this discussion.

Galatians 4:5-7 are talking about sons of God which we become at salvation but Galatians 4:19 is talking about birthing Christ in us and that takes the incorruptible SEED.

The theif on the cross was saved on the cross but he wasn't "born again" of the incorruptible WRITTEN word of God. The same was true of me. I was saved without ever reading any bible. Then about 15 years later when I started reading the incorruptible word of God (KJV) then I was born again. Then I could "see" the kingdom of God - spiritual things like number patterns in the bible and a multitude of other things.

All we have to do to be saved is to call upon the name of the Lord, but we have to read the incorruptible seed to be born again because that seed literally is the Christ in us.

This is what I've learned from studying the bible... I know it goes against "Churchianity" lol, but it's proven from the bible.