Lawless reprobates. What's the real meaning?
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It makes a lot of sense to me:
Along with the verses that you posted from 1 Cor 3,, Acts 15 goes on to say:
Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
It makes so sense to me that they were debating about what Law to give to the Gentiles if (as some teach,) IF there was no longer any significance to it, then there wouldn't have been any need to give them any of the law at
all.
And as you stated:
Jesus once said to the disciples: (I would think that Peter was present when is was spoken.)
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
So when Jesus walked with the disciples, they were still in that carnal state, and He was teaching them.
John 4:33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
The meat that Jesus spoke of was to do the will of the father.
Jesus told the disciples that He had "many things" to say to hem, but they couldn't bear them at that time..
But when he, the Spirit of truth would come, he would "guide," them into all truth. (A process.)
This goes back to the process that Paul spoke of in depth in Phil 3, pressing on..etc...
Really good points Just-me. It makes much more sense to me that it was a maturity thing in acts 15 given what the bible says in Rev 2.
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I haven't any problem with that. I like what you say, and I see what you mean. It is the way THEY called heresy. Good point. I like what Jesus told the Pharisees also concerning the writings of Moses that records the actual words God spoke to him.
John 5:44-47
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
The Pharisees trusted the writings of Moses only in the flesh or the carnal mind, if you will.
That confirms what you say about "after the way which they call heresy" because they trusted Moses according to their own understanding, not the way Paul understood.
Jesus said they trusted Moses in verse 45 and then Jesus says that if they didn't believe Moses writings (almost in the same breath) they wouldn't believe what Jesus said.
Jesus makes no distinctions between the prophecies of Moses and the law Moses receive form God.
In other words, the Pharisees trusted Moses according to the flesh, but were unable to comprehend the Spiritual truth of the law as Paul is recorded as saying "so worship I the God of my fathers, believing "all" things which are written in the law and in the prophets."
Henceforth the other key word is "all," not by the flesh, but by the Spirit.
John 5:44-47
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
The Pharisees trusted the writings of Moses only in the flesh or the carnal mind, if you will.
That confirms what you say about "after the way which they call heresy" because they trusted Moses according to their own understanding, not the way Paul understood.
Jesus said they trusted Moses in verse 45 and then Jesus says that if they didn't believe Moses writings (almost in the same breath) they wouldn't believe what Jesus said.
Jesus makes no distinctions between the prophecies of Moses and the law Moses receive form God.
In other words, the Pharisees trusted Moses according to the flesh, but were unable to comprehend the Spiritual truth of the law as Paul is recorded as saying "so worship I the God of my fathers, believing "all" things which are written in the law and in the prophets."
Henceforth the other key word is "all," not by the flesh, but by the Spirit.
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John 4:33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
amen. "real FOOD" too....... he had not eaten and "should" have been hungry(according to the reckoning of his faithful disciples watching him and watching out for him; and time wise) ...
but HIS FOOD that they did not know of (yet)(and that very few know of today)
is to DO THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME. TO DO the WILL OF THE FATHER.
he didn't 'think' it.
he didn't 'faith' it.
he didn't 'couch-potatoe' sit and wait it.
he didn't 'watch' the father do it for him. (he did do what he saw the father do, or what the father told him to do, always in line with all of GOD'S WORD.
he DID it. "to do the will of him that sent me" (and see what he did just previously, and later, and always)
(and what the disciples did)
John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
amen. "real FOOD" too....... he had not eaten and "should" have been hungry(according to the reckoning of his faithful disciples watching him and watching out for him; and time wise) ...
but HIS FOOD that they did not know of (yet)(and that very few know of today)
is to DO THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME. TO DO the WILL OF THE FATHER.
he didn't 'think' it.
he didn't 'faith' it.
he didn't 'couch-potatoe' sit and wait it.
he didn't 'watch' the father do it for him. (he did do what he saw the father do, or what the father told him to do, always in line with all of GOD'S WORD.
he DID it. "to do the will of him that sent me" (and see what he did just previously, and later, and always)
(and what the disciples did)
That is correct that love is the fulfilling of the law, and the details of how to love begin with Leviticus 19:11-18, and Deuteronomy 6:1-6. There is much that hangs onto this concept and we should desire to learn and understand how to love God's way instead of our own assumptions and feelings minus the Torah.
Now in Matthew 11:13. Neither the law nor the prophets have ceased prophesying, therefore "until" here simple refers until this time, not to the end of the prophetic time clock. According to a British Sephardic Rabbi named Shem Tob, the text should read "concerning" rather then "until" as the Aramaic text does. There are more scriptures given of prophesy concerning the 2nd coming of Jesus, as the Son of David, than prophecies concerning the 1st coming of Jesus the Son of the carpenter Joseph. Prophecies are not over and done any more than the writings of Moses.
Now in Matthew 11:13. Neither the law nor the prophets have ceased prophesying, therefore "until" here simple refers until this time, not to the end of the prophetic time clock. According to a British Sephardic Rabbi named Shem Tob, the text should read "concerning" rather then "until" as the Aramaic text does. There are more scriptures given of prophesy concerning the 2nd coming of Jesus, as the Son of David, than prophecies concerning the 1st coming of Jesus the Son of the carpenter Joseph. Prophecies are not over and done any more than the writings of Moses.
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D
John went before Jesus who testified he saw the Spirit remain on him Isaiah 61:1 and who would fulfill the proclamations there from the acceptable year in Luke 4:18 and the days of vengeance in Luke 21:22 where Jesus says (after his procalmation of the same)
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Is that one incorrect? And the one below?
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
How are each supposed to read, can you post each of those out as they are to be read?
I thought John was to fulfill his course and both John and Jesus fulfill all righteousness.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Is that one incorrect? And the one below?
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
How are each supposed to read, can you post each of those out as they are to be read?
I thought John was to fulfill his course and both John and Jesus fulfill all righteousness.
John the Baptist did fulfill his mission and Jesus will fulfilled His. Remember Jesus is coming back. His mission is not completed yet according to the prophecy of His promise.
Luke 21:22 can be better understood as this. "Because these are the days of vengeance that might (hasn't happened yet at that time) be fulfilled, everything that is written about the destruction of Jerusalem." This is another way to read it out of the (CJB). "For these are the days of vengeance, when everything that has been written in the Tanakh (about this vengence) will come true." See Isaiah 65:12-15
This is the prophecy of 70 AD after the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans. "All" is not mentioned in the Aramaic script, but the word "everything" is mentioned in the CJB.
Luke 16:16 is the same description as I mentioned before noting the difference between "until" and "concerning" compared with Matthew 11:13.
The statement of "since that time" can be compared to "will come true" in these 2 verses. Jesus is referring to John the Baptist's teaching and preparing the way, and from that tie forward the prophecy with come true concerning the preaching of the Kingdom. Also keep in mind that the New Testament of Jesus Christ wasn't in effect until His death. Hebrews 9:16-17
The word "fulfilled" is another word that needs to be considered. It would mean "till everything happens of what has been prophesied."
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till "all" be fulfilled.
Here is an example of what hasn't been fulfilled yet.
Ezekiel 37:10-19
[SUP]10 [/SUP]So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Luke 21:22 can be better understood as this. "Because these are the days of vengeance that might (hasn't happened yet at that time) be fulfilled, everything that is written about the destruction of Jerusalem." This is another way to read it out of the (CJB). "For these are the days of vengeance, when everything that has been written in the Tanakh (about this vengence) will come true." See Isaiah 65:12-15
This is the prophecy of 70 AD after the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans. "All" is not mentioned in the Aramaic script, but the word "everything" is mentioned in the CJB.
Luke 16:16 is the same description as I mentioned before noting the difference between "until" and "concerning" compared with Matthew 11:13.
The statement of "since that time" can be compared to "will come true" in these 2 verses. Jesus is referring to John the Baptist's teaching and preparing the way, and from that tie forward the prophecy with come true concerning the preaching of the Kingdom. Also keep in mind that the New Testament of Jesus Christ wasn't in effect until His death. Hebrews 9:16-17
The word "fulfilled" is another word that needs to be considered. It would mean "till everything happens of what has been prophesied."
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till "all" be fulfilled.
Here is an example of what hasn't been fulfilled yet.
Ezekiel 37:10-19
[SUP]10 [/SUP]So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
I think the yoke refers to the law of Moses, as the pharisees say in verse 5...
if it's only the oral torah they're saying don't follow, then I think James does a very strange job of writing the letter...
also, Peter says he and the others can't bear it now... why would he say that if they were trying to follow just the written law which, supposedly, is easy?
if it's only the oral torah they're saying don't follow, then I think James does a very strange job of writing the letter...
also, Peter says he and the others can't bear it now... why would he say that if they were trying to follow just the written law which, supposedly, is easy?
Is there any particular quote from James that you can refer me to in respect to this subject?
So you believe that a substantial part of God's word has become a burdensome yoke via the New Covenant then? Why would it be tempting God with God's own words written in the law? "Now therefore why tempt ye God," Acts 15:10a They are actually saying, "why put God on trial?"
tempt = peirazo = to test (objectively), i.e. endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline:--assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt(-er), try.
peira = (through the idea of piercing); a test, i.e. attempt, experience:--assaying, trial.
Jesus' yoke is easy, and light. Is it true, in your opinion, that His Fathers yoke is different and has become hard to bear? Tell me what you think of this thread please.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/112336-blessings-law.html
So you believe that a substantial part of God's word has become a burdensome yoke via the New Covenant then? Why would it be tempting God with God's own words written in the law? "Now therefore why tempt ye God," Acts 15:10a They are actually saying, "why put God on trial?"
tempt = peirazo = to test (objectively), i.e. endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline:--assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt(-er), try.
peira = (through the idea of piercing); a test, i.e. attempt, experience:--assaying, trial.
Jesus' yoke is easy, and light. Is it true, in your opinion, that His Fathers yoke is different and has become hard to bear? Tell me what you think of this thread please.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/112336-blessings-law.html
Is there any scripture that you can think of that defines God and Jesus as having separate attributes? Whenever there is a burden, and heavy yoke, or a curse mentioned in the Bible, it has to be understood that human carnality is involved. Jesus and His Father are a unit of One and there is no difference between them. Malachi says God doesn't change, and Hebrews says Jesus doesn't change. Then when Philip asked Jesus to show them His Father, this is the conversation that ensued.
John 14:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
When we are determined to separate God's law from Jesus' words, we will always get it wrong, due to this carnal thought process. Once we determine that God's law is also the law of Jesus, we will then begin to understand the truth that Christ Jesus has always intended us to comprehend. Until that time we will always want to separate Jesus' teachings from His Father's law, and that is a tragic mistake caused by the tactics of the adversary in order to destroy the true church. Divide and conquer is the tactic. Have you ever heard that before?
God's law cannot be any more burdensome than the yoke of Christ Jesus for those who truly believe.
John 14:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
When we are determined to separate God's law from Jesus' words, we will always get it wrong, due to this carnal thought process. Once we determine that God's law is also the law of Jesus, we will then begin to understand the truth that Christ Jesus has always intended us to comprehend. Until that time we will always want to separate Jesus' teachings from His Father's law, and that is a tragic mistake caused by the tactics of the adversary in order to destroy the true church. Divide and conquer is the tactic. Have you ever heard that before?
God's law cannot be any more burdensome than the yoke of Christ Jesus for those who truly believe.
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James uses the word 'trouble' and 'burden' in the context of the law of Moses in acts 15...
I don't think it became burdensome, it sounds to me like Peter says it was always burdensome...
I think the 'tempting God' part is related to not believing that God can make the gentiles righteous without the law of Moses...
I think the law of Moses was always impossible to bear... I think that's part of it's purpose, to show you that you can't...
I think that some other person in the trinity gave the law to Moses, or maybe it was Jesus and he changed it... I see Jesus making changes to the law of Moses before he dies...
I think it's a great thread!
I don't think it became burdensome, it sounds to me like Peter says it was always burdensome...
I think the 'tempting God' part is related to not believing that God can make the gentiles righteous without the law of Moses...
I think the law of Moses was always impossible to bear... I think that's part of it's purpose, to show you that you can't...
I think that some other person in the trinity gave the law to Moses, or maybe it was Jesus and he changed it... I see Jesus making changes to the law of Moses before he dies...
I think it's a great thread!
Some day you will reconsider your statement "there is a big difference between Jesus and the Father." The difference that should be recognized is the change in us between the carnal mind and our spiritual understanding. "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." It's the law, see Deuteronomy 10:16
If you truly believe Jesus is different than His Father in heaven, you have it wrong. That's the way it is, and that will never change.
One of the major things Jesus came to do was to properly interpret the truth of the law in its original form. If we cannot see the relationship between Jesus and His own Father as the same, then we are viewing the Law that God gave to Moses with a carnal mindset. If there seems to be a contradiction in any of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, then we have a bad interpretation, and we must reconsider our understanding because it's wrong.
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10
"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8
Jesus is actually the giver of the law that Moses received.
"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Colossians 1:17
The Word of God will never change, and hasn't changed because He is perfect.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:1 and 14
"Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:8-9
So many that have been taught to reject the law of the Old Testament don't know the spiritual applications being totally parallel with the New Testament. Study to show yourself approved.
If you truly believe Jesus is different than His Father in heaven, you have it wrong. That's the way it is, and that will never change.
One of the major things Jesus came to do was to properly interpret the truth of the law in its original form. If we cannot see the relationship between Jesus and His own Father as the same, then we are viewing the Law that God gave to Moses with a carnal mindset. If there seems to be a contradiction in any of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, then we have a bad interpretation, and we must reconsider our understanding because it's wrong.
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10
"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8
Jesus is actually the giver of the law that Moses received.
"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Colossians 1:17
The Word of God will never change, and hasn't changed because He is perfect.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:1 and 14
"Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:8-9
So many that have been taught to reject the law of the Old Testament don't know the spiritual applications being totally parallel with the New Testament. Study to show yourself approved.
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Galatians 3:10-11
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Why can Paul talk about the law in such a way if it is no longer burdensome to those who believe?
Why does Paul say that it is the Ministry of Condemnation and Death in 2 Corinthians?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Why can Paul talk about the law in such a way if it is no longer burdensome to those who believe?
Why does Paul say that it is the Ministry of Condemnation and Death in 2 Corinthians?
The law of sin and death didn't come from God. It's His righteous judgment that come after disobedience to the law. The law of sin and death is instigated/propagated/enhanced by man, not God. God's law is spiritual, not carnal. If we see it differently than that, we are of a carnal mindset.
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