layers in the unforgiving Debtor??

[reneweddaybyday]

paul is not understood and mistaught to make an unconditional "gospel" because so few have faith in Jesus. its easier to think its unconditional, even though the gospel is coinditional. so the result is things like " well that doesn't apply to a Christian, we don't follow Jesus, we follow Paul." but really, paul is in no way teaching an unconditional gospel. Hes saying we were saved by Grace, meaning, all the world was under law, a law that could not save a man. so Jesus died to pay the death we all owed because of sin. that's grace and what paul is saying. works, are not Jesus, Jesus teachings are grace. think of it. once a person is "saved" who then is worthy of forgiveness? but the person who is grateful to the One who died and honors what He clearly teaches? and he teaches forgive and you will be forgiven. if you do not, then you will not be forgiven. its right there in scripture that you are saying I'm "completely contradicting"

We are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8,9). Period.

Scripture does not say "you are saved but only if you forgive others" (which in some cases requires a great deal of effort (work) on our part).

To be delivered to the tormentors as shown in Matt 18:34 is not loss of salvation. The word "tormentors" is the Greek word basanistēs which means an inquisitor through judicial examination. If you think about it, all mankind (believer and non-believer) shall stand before the judgment seat. All will give account to God. We are instructed to forgive others as shown in Matt 18 and we are instructed not to judge one another (Rom 14). When we give an account, we will answer for all we have done in this life. All we have done will be tried by fire and we will suffer loss for those things done which do not withstand the fire but he himself shall be saved (1 Cor 3:12-15).

And consider also the chastening of the Lord which we experience in this life. God does and will continue to reveal to us those areas in our lives where we fall short. And forgiveness is an area God will bring to light.

Look again at Eph 4:31,32 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

When we do not forgive, we have not put away bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, ... malice. These are grievous agonies which torture us until we do exactly as instructed in Eph 4 -- Let it be put away from you. These behaviors torment us and hinder us from living life the way God designed for the believer.

Romans 12:17-21 tell us Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Who is he that avenges him/herself but the one who has not forgiven?

We have the promise from God Almighty that He will repay whatever wrong someone has done toward us. We forgive and let God handle the situation. He will deal with the matter as He sees fit. And He can do so much better than I or you when it comes to avenging one of His children. The way I see it, if I don't forgive, I am standing in the way of God actually working in that other person's life, as well as hindering His healing balm on my heart. If I take it upon myself to try to "fix" matters, He allows me to handle the situation. My "fix" may or may not be what that other person needs in his/her life. God knows what that other person needs and He can work in ways that will actually help that other person (or the other person may not benefit if he/she person rejects God's working in his/her life).

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

He departed the board again, as much as I will miss him around, I dont think its a bad thing for him.

But he might not get back to any questions here (just so you are aware of this)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Thanks PilgrimPassingThru. Too bad he left. A good discussion was in process.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

matthew 18:23-35....“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

we know this is a what the Kingdom is like parable, we see the great, unpayable debt ( the laws demand and lack of mercy)
we see the man cry for mercy.....



“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

we see the man who is forgiven all His debts, go out and show no mercy to the man who owes Him a small debt. we see the Master Hear of this. we see the other servants witness and report ( angels?)


“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

we see the anger and wrath of the Master, because of the servants actions after receiving the great cancellation of His debts because of mercy or ( grace)


“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

we see the concluding summary sentence....


I have formerly thought of this regarding only forgiveness, it just occurred to me, this is the way of the kingdom. The first man was under law, had no way to pay and was going to lose all he had. He accepts Gods grace and is totally justified, debt cancelled all by Grace. He then goes out not thinking of What God has done for Him, but in His greed and hardened heart, has no mercy on the other man who begs Him. When God sees this He throws Him in prison to be tortured until he can pay the great debt, which he could not pay to begin with. God re instituted the mans debt, based on His behavior. and it is summed up with the clear statement. " this is how My Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from the heart."

forgiveness it is, but also a principle that Jesus uses continually in His teaching. God has been gracious cancelling our debt, what will He do now if we do not Give that same grace and forgive knowing all he forgave? is this not a picture of Gods Kingdom? He begins making it clear it is. it has nothing to do with law......this like all of Jesus teachings is seen in " I desire mercy, not sacrifice" the law is all based on sacrifice, sin offerings, fellowship offerings, atonement sacrifices ect.....Jesus teachings are all mercy......" I desire Mercy, not sacrifice" Jesus teachings replaced Law and made the Law Grace. Grace we receive and grace we are then required to give. to associate His teachings with law is absurd really.

He changed them " you have heard that it was said...but I tell you" just some thinking that came to mind, " by the measure you use, it will be measured to you" that's Jesus principle through out the gospels....that's Christian " law" any takers?


Just again some thoughts, take what you will. God bless and everything we do and say belongs a praise to God the Father, in the name and through the Loving company of Jesus Christ our Lord.


I ramble God bless you abundantly.

Hi!
This is interesting to me because I saw a connection between four verses yesterday.
They are:
1. I have given you the keys to heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
2. If you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.
3. You will be judged in the same way that you have judged.
4. You who condemn these things, why do you do them?

The people who thought they weren't doing the same things they condemned in others did not understand that sin springs from inside a man and proceeds outward. So they condemned adultery while committing it themselves by loving something more than God, like their money, house, car, self sufficiency, etc. So they were binding that person on earth for outward adultery and yet claiming they could see clearly. But if they saw clearly, they would not dare to bind on earth that way. They would immediately forgive and leave anything more in Gods hands. The fact that they claimed to see yet did not see this is very serious.

Even the OT describes this because when Jeremiah accused them of adultery, they said: what?? Are you insane?? HOW have we committed adultery?? They literally could not see it because they were looking only on the outer. But if anyone claims they can see enough to help others, they had best be sure they really CAN see, because Jesus said: If you could not see, you would not be condemned but because you claim you can see, you are condemned.

Anyway, all those verses should make us fear God and run to Him immediately when we see we are holding resentment inside at anyone. Not sure if I've clearly conveyed what I was trying to say...