LOGIC

[cfultz3]

Your child has a gun to their head.. and is about to commit suicide. What is the loving thing to do?

Let them blow themself away.. or REMOVE THE MEANS BY WHICH IT IS POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO BLOW THEMSELVES AWAY.

This is real love-- not a Hitler style God. It is God who knows better than us about what is best for us.. and will remove our ability to terminate, because that is preserving our life!


Other thing is-- I do have a problem with saying that a saved person won't fail.. or won't walk away..

A saved person can't walk away in terms of lose salvation walk away... but..

Every saved person still has the free will ability to turn to old ways. That is not removed.

So in this I probably disagree with some. Of course there will be fruit from salvation as the natural result of being converted.. but this doesn't mean they won't ever go wayward.

It's the same logical problem I had with saying it is only those who are faithful after salvation who are in heaven. It's also an inconsistency to say that a saved person will never fall..

Both end up having only christians who have done good works most of their life in heaven- therefore both are 'works based'.

'He who endures to the end will be saved'-- the context of this verse is not about only saved peple who endure receiving eternal life.. but is about christians being delivered from harsh times and trials.

The word 'save' isn't always about ETERNAL salvation.. it may be.. but not always.

Without freely choosing God to be Lord, then it is mere compliance. Even Jesus Himself freely choose God's will over His will. Did He not also ask God that if it was His will, then remove the cup of death from Him?

Also, in reply, remember your first love, or I will come and remove your candlestick. Repentance is needful for a saint too, the very reason why our High Priest sets upon His Throne of Mercy. If we do not receive forgiveness if we do not forgive others, then it goes to say, that we need to forgive so that we can be forgiven. If there is no need for repentance for the saint, then there is no conviction from the Holy Spirit and if not conviction from the Holy Spirit, then.......

 

[wattie]

My last point-

Is the Family of God and the Body of Christ-- the same thing?

I believe they are different entities.

'body' as in 'group' 'assembly' 'meeting' 'congregation'

'Family' - may not be assembled or congregated or meeting.

The body of Christ IS the church--

church-

Ecclessia- 'called out assembly' 'congregation' 'regularly summoned meeting'

Corinthians- 'Ye are the body of Christ'

Who is the 'YE' or the 'YOU'?

It's the body/assembly/group at Corinth.

There is - one body at Ephesus.. one body at Corinth.. one body at Phillipi.. one body at Colosse etc etc ad infinitum.


The Family of God and teh Body of Christ are different entities.

 

[cfultz3]

no comments wattie.

 

[cfultz3]

no comments wattie.

No wait.

To be a member of the family, you have to be a part of the Body. The same Body who shall be united with her Husband at the wedding. One is not a child unless he is in Christ's Body.

 

[wattie]

'Candle stick' in Revelation-

is the place of the Holy Spirit-- 'dwelling the midst' of a local church.

This can be taken away.. but the congregation.. members of the local church keep their eternal life.

Their is a difference also between the work of the Holy Spirit in the midst of a church family.. and work of the Holy Spirit inside an individual.

 

[cfultz3]

'Candle stick' in Revelation-

is the place of the Holy Spirit-- 'dwelling the midst' of a local church.

This can be taken away.. but the congregation.. members of the local church keep their eternal life.

Their is a difference also between the work of the Holy Spirit in the midst of a church family.. and work of the Holy Spirit inside an individual.

The Spirit is the sealment of sonhood.

 

[cfultz3]

The Spirit is the sealment of sonhood.

Without the Spirit, one is Fatherless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eg,

Again, If one wanders, Christ promised to leave the flock to get the one who left, and bring him back. Yes He does promise to leave the flock and go and search for that one. But as the prodical son, he has to return willfully in remorse. It was only then that the son was found to be ALIVE AGAIN and not lost.

you forget an important principle. The son never stopped being the son, He was always the son, he was just lost. He lost his fathers blessings, and the ability to access them, but he was still the son. His dad did not kick him out of his family, or stop being his father! If we use this to say we can lose salvation, we plainly say the man did not just leave, but his father kicked him out of his family. You forget, the child was born of the father, He had nothing to do with his birth, it was his fathers work. He does not just stop being the fathers son even though he walks away, He is still his fathers son by blood.

You also forget, the sheep knows the master, and he always follows the master. if the master goes and finds him where he wandered off, the sheep will follow him. The only time a sheep would not follow a master is if the sheep did not belong to the master in the first place. because then he would not know him. There is a reason God used symbols of the day to show his truths, The people back then would have realized what he meant, we must think like they would.

It is not us, It is always God. You also fail to realize someone who has truly repented and has true faith would NEVER cange there mind about Christ and his love, yes, they may become prodigal children, but we see where that gets us, We lose everything, and this losing everything causes us to come back.

Sticking to the same guns we had before, and what of the swine or the dog? Didn't Adam and Eve, even Satan and the fallen angels realize what they lost? Were they able to return to what they lost?

you have a problem here. Adam and Eve and the angels NEVER really knew what they had, they could not compare it with anything, because they ALWAYS had what they had. You can only know what you truly have once you have lost it. Like the prodigal son, he thought he could do better for himself. he did not know how bad the world was until he left. so he could not comprehend what he had until he lost it. This is what brought him back. this is what brought ME back. This is what brings everyone back.

When we are in the world. all we know is the world, We just know something is missing, and we try to do what we can to get it, this is why we LIVE in sin, we are doing whatever we can to fill the missing hole in our life only God can fill. Once we find God, the hole is filled. But since we really did not understand how bad the world was, We still really have nothing to compair it to. if we go back into the world, we realise JUST HOW BAD OUR LIVES WERE before we came, and how hopeless we were. This brings us back.

Are you telling me Adam and Eve, once they REALLY knew what they lost, would walk away again?

It did me, God waited till the right time, when I was ready to give up and looking to end it all, when a friend I led to Christ who had not called me in over 5 years suddenly out of the blue called me and led me back to church where I belonged.

I am very happy you repented, I really am. But some do not repent.

Then they did not know what they lost. If they did not know what they lost. would they have been saved in the first place? All I can say is if you have never been there. Don't presume to think you know how people will act.

God does not remove free will, he uses our free will, and our knowledge of him to realise we have done wrong, and made a huge mistake, and bring us back to his house.

And sometimes the fornicator does not wish to return to the separation (church).

And what makes this different than the liar? or the cheater? or the man who sits on his couch and does not go out and do what God tells him to do, but just goes to church every Sunday and maybe Wednesday and plays the game, Is the fornicator more deserving of damnation that the man who seems righteous on the outside, but is still a sinner on the inside? Or how about you and me? do we not still sin? what makes us more deserving? You guys like to promote the sins we all deem as evil, and you ignore the sin in your own life, which you would not consider to be evil. This was the problem of the pharisees. They saw everyone else's sin, but could not see there own. And thus thought they deserved Gods love, because they were not sinners like the rest. Paul on the other hand, always knew his sin, And in doing so, always walked with a grateful heart knowing he was wretched and undeserving of eternal life, even at the end of his ministry.

oh, and buy the way, The fornicator will realize his sin is not satisfying the need in his life. because he has already found true love of God and his family. He may walk away for a bit. But if he is truly saved, Chastening of God, The realization of his true plight, and that his sin is not satisfying him, WILL bring him back. I have seen it to many times to believe otherwise. I have also seen others who did not come back. But when we look on there lives after they proclaimed to be saved, we saw no fruit of their repentance. so we believe as John said., If we live in sin, we have neither seen God nor have we ever known him.

You said, 'God does not remove freewill', and that is true. If God does not remove it, then does not a person still have that freewill to abandon His walk? If a person still has freewill, then what is wrong in telling a person not to choose to walk off from that path he is being led on? Yes?

Nothing is wrong from telling a person not to walk off the path. Paul did it all the time. I have done it many times. What is wrong is using a fear tactic that if you walk away God will remove his gift from you, and you have forfieted the RIGHT to enter heaven. For one, it will not work. I think we saw in Isreal fear did not cause them to stop sin, it caused it to increase, as did the law. If fear and the law could make someone righteous, isreal would have been the most righteous people ever to walk the earth. we both know that is not the case.

I would tell them why would you want to give up what God has blessed you with, your church family, great victory over many sins which caused your life to be a living hell. and all the things God wants to bless you with in the future, you would want to give that up to walk away? and if they still walk away, i would pray for them hard. and know when they returned, (and from I have witnessed they will) i would not say I told you so, i would welcome them back as a brother or sister, and seek to see what we can do to not allow it to happen again. This is what god did, and what paul tells us to do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Heb 13:12- Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

I am confused. i said it is God which sanctifies us, not us who sanctifies ourselves. and you posted a passage which shows exactly what i said. although I am confused why you would do this. i thank you for showing me I was right.

Of course Jesus paid the price of redemption but does that mean the whole world was automatically redeemed when He died? No.

I never said it did, Not everyone will have faith in Christ because of true repentance. No everyone will open the door in faith when God knocks. So not everyone will be saved. But again, if Christ did not die for their sin, and make the repentnance sacrifice for them, they would have no opportunity to be saved. Jesus did not do as many believe and only die for the sins of those who are his, he took the sin of the whole world on his flesh, and paid the ultimate sacrifice for all of them. But he is not just going to give it away, He offers it to all. But he makes everyone chose to receive it in faith, or reject it . They will suffer eternal damnation because they rejected it. "he who does not believe is condemned" It is quite simple.

God has given everyone the opportunity to receive the gift of salvation and eternal life however it's up to the sinner to respond to the call of salvation in order to enjoy God's love and blessings attached to being a child of God. Rev 3:20- Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

and again I agree, This happens in faith. Many people start to walk, they hear the truth, they may play the game for awhile, but they never come to full repentance and faith, and before they finish what is required to be done, they walk away, These people have never seen God k=nor known him, You don't come in and play the game for awhile and expect god to save you just because, and then walk away. You either have faith in him, or you do not. No inbetween, Mere belief will not save you.

Luke 9:62- And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.That is very self-explanatory. Lukewarmness, spiritual laxity, going back to your former lifestyle after salvation will disqualify you from entering the Kingdom of God.

I disagree strongly with your assumption here.. Many disciples walked with Christ. They picked up the plow and started to plow but they never finished plowing. In john 6 we see these plainly. These people were plowing with Christ, but when it came to the nitty gritty, we see they never truly believed, for they walked away, They did not lose salvation, they never had it. As Jesus said, they did not believe.

Salvation is a process. We must first hear the word. Then we have to search ourselves. and find out if we agree with EVERYTHING the gospel says, or not (many might agree with part, but not all. many may want to add to the gospel of Christ making it a different gospel) And then once they do this, they have to make a discussion, do I trust god and what he says about me (I am a sinner rightly condemned) Do i trust God and what he says he did? (He took the penalty of my sin on his body at his death) and do I trust his promise (that if I just have faith in him he will forgive me all sin and cleanse me from all unrighteousness, Justify my by the redemptive sacrifice of his son, and will give me eternal life) It sounds like a no brainer, who would turn it down. But unfortunately. so many people start plowing, but never finish the work. and when it comes to the time of harvest, they are left out.

what are some reasons?

1. They do not really think they are sinners. So they do not really believe they are condemned.
2. They love their sin, and do not want to give it up. so who wants to follow a God that tells them they are evil?
3. I am not sure if this is for me. But I will try it out. See if what they tell me is true, and it will actually benefit me (like trying a new game because it is popular, but then rel=alising the game sicks, so they stop playing it)

these are easy, and I think we would all agree. but there are others.

1. I believe I am a sinner, and Jesus died. But I can't believe he paid it all and all I have to do is trust him. God MUST need me to do something. so i will work by stopping sin, Doing some religious ceremony (baptism, communion, Church membership, giving to the church, or whatever it is the church has to offer) and God will use these to save me, as I make up for my sin.
2. I am a sinner, And jesus died. But I must work to earn the gift God gave me. I must change my life, I must stop sin, I must do this or that, and if I do not. God will no longer honor his gift. But I have forfieted it, Again, saying Christ's death is not sufficient, And I must add my works.

As Christians, we must strive to overcome worldly allurement and surrender our lives to God in every situation of life. Remember that "whosoever will save his life shall lose it". If you'd rather satisfy your flesh and gain the world than take up your cross even as Christ bore the cross, you will lose your life.

Heb 5:9- And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Redemption is freedom from the stronghold of sin, not freedom to sin. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness (Rom 6:18).

and as was told before. Those who are saved by grace, WILL DO THE WORK. God HAS perfected those who are BEING SANCTIFIED.

not to mention all the great verses which were just posted. Like John 6, he who believes he will never cast out, They will never hunger or thirst. They will never die. They will live forever, and he will raise them on the last day.

if these things are not true. And God gave someone these things, and they could be lost for ANY reason. then God is a liar. and why should we follow him?

 

[wattie]

Matthew 18:

This is the process for local church family discipline.

'where two or three are gathered...' This is about two or three getting together to sort out conflicts in their church membership.

If someone is still being rebellious-- causing disagreement etc.. and is kicked out from that local church..

This does not mean they have lost their eternal salvation!

They have been taken from a church out of it-- into the wider Family of God. They lose-

*close fellowship with like-minded christians
*closeness in fellowship with God-- as they are not doing His Will
*Less guidance because they aren't being fed by a local church-- 'the pillar and the ground of the truth'
*Consistent feeding from the Word of God by an experienced pastor
plus more


The church discipline process in Matthew 18-- is not about someone actually being kicked out of the Family of God or the Kingdom.. but their local church family - and that only if they will not listen to reason with other church members.

 

[wattie]

I found something about 2 Peter

Earlier in this thread 2 Peter was used as a reference to someone losing salvation or someone never saved in the first place:

I studied the context of it and found out:

So-- the verse alone is this one:

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

NOW

Context:

go back to the beginning of 2 Peter-- and the subject is established of people who are saved and being admonished not to return to old sins..

Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

So the people being referred to are saved followers of Jesus.. and the example given of someone who lacks fruitfulness forgetting they were purged from their old sins.

So then when you get to 2 Peter 2:20-- if the subject is of people who are saved who become unfruitful.. then it makes no sense to say this passage is of people who were never saved.

As for losing salvation.. again.. the context is about saved people being unfruitful.. but also about false prophets coming in bringing destructive teaching.

The false teachers -- are mostly referred in terms that would suggest they aren't saved. The subject of those 'who have escaped the pollutions of the world' though-- appears to be saved people who becoming unfruitful by the affects of influence of the false teachers.

So.. in this passage you don't see saved people losing eternal life.. it's not in there. What you do see is saved people who could be affected by false teachers coming in bringing destructive heresies and becoming unfruitful.