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YOU "need to think more carefully about these things." I have thought very carefully! The persecutions that those first disciples of Jesus' day and their fellow saints suffered were unique to them. THEY were the persecutions Jesus predicted--specific persecutions. Jesus pronounced judgment upon that very generation of Jews whom He declared "guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). That judgment and TRIBULATION from that guilt was specific to them. It was to come when THEIR house (Temple) was destroyed. That happened just as Jesus said it would in A.D. 70.
Do we suffer persecutions today? Of course. But they are not THOSE persecutions. We must not apply to us those things that were meant for OTHER people. Clearly, Jesus told THOSE disciples that "ALL THOSE THINGS" He forewarned THEM about would happen to THEM when He said in plain, easy-to-understand language: "THIS generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." And they did. They were not meant to happen to US.
Do we suffer persecutions today? Of course. But they are not THOSE persecutions. We must not apply to us those things that were meant for OTHER people. Clearly, Jesus told THOSE disciples that "ALL THOSE THINGS" He forewarned THEM about would happen to THEM when He said in plain, easy-to-understand language: "THIS generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." And they did. They were not meant to happen to US.
Yes, the body is being built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The foundation has already been laid. There aren't any modern-day apostles or prophets.
I know a lot of people are probably going to freak out and criticize me for not believing in apostles and prophets. However, I do believe in apostles and prophets; they speak to us today through the Bible. But those who call themselves "prophet" or "apostle" today are arrogant baffoons who think more highly of themselves than they do the body.
This idea of modern-day apostles and prophets has gotten so ingrained in people's minds it seems blasphemous to even utter such a thing. But just because some idea or doctrine has been accepted by the majority doesn't make it true.
I know a lot of people are probably going to freak out and criticize me for not believing in apostles and prophets. However, I do believe in apostles and prophets; they speak to us today through the Bible. But those who call themselves "prophet" or "apostle" today are arrogant baffoons who think more highly of themselves than they do the body.
This idea of modern-day apostles and prophets has gotten so ingrained in people's minds it seems blasphemous to even utter such a thing. But just because some idea or doctrine has been accepted by the majority doesn't make it true.
Ephesians 2:19-20: "So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,"
Paul tells the Ephesians in his day they are being built on the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets. If the Ephesian were being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, how can we lay a new foundation? Once a foundation is laid there's no need to lay another one, unless your purpose is to build a new structure.
Paul tells the Ephesians in his day they are being built on the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets. If the Ephesian were being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, how can we lay a new foundation? Once a foundation is laid there's no need to lay another one, unless your purpose is to build a new structure.
Ephesians 2:19-20: "So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,"
Paul tells the Ephesians in his day they are being built on the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets. If the Ephesian were being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, how can we lay a new foundation? Once a foundation is laid there's no need to lay another one, unless your purpose is to build a new structure.
Paul tells the Ephesians in his day they are being built on the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets. If the Ephesian were being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, how can we lay a new foundation? Once a foundation is laid there's no need to lay another one, unless your purpose is to build a new structure.
What we need to see is the need to have the ministries alive today because Christ gave them to the church.
Eph 4:
9(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?b 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsc and teachers,d 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,e to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
I don't see the modern church walking in the measure of fullness of maturity yet. If anything, I see many backing away from it.
Eph 4:
9(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?b 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsc and teachers,d 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,e to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
I don't see the modern church walking in the measure of fullness of maturity yet. If anything, I see many backing away from it.
I agree "he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ."
However, it's a mistake, I believe, to assume that modern-day apostles and prophets continue today. For one thing we already know they laid the foundation and we have that foundation in God's word. So yes, apostles and prophets do speak to us today but not in the way a lot of people think. They speak to us through God's word.
Most modern-day so-called apostles and prophets are experts in twisting God's word to suit their own purposes.
However, it's a mistake, I believe, to assume that modern-day apostles and prophets continue today. For one thing we already know they laid the foundation and we have that foundation in God's word. So yes, apostles and prophets do speak to us today but not in the way a lot of people think. They speak to us through God's word.
Most modern-day so-called apostles and prophets are experts in twisting God's word to suit their own purposes.
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You said: "The restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the Church. At the rapture, that restraint on Satan will be taken out of the way. The teaching here is clear. The day of the Lord cannot begin until the rise of Antichrist, and Antichrist cannot rise until the Church has been taken out of the way. Therefore, the rapture must take place before the tribulation."
This is false and contrary to Scripture.
2 Thes 2:1-3
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,
we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us,
alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. (Left Behind / pre-trib rapture)
Let no one deceive you in any way,
for it will not come
until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.
This is false and contrary to Scripture.
2 Thes 2:1-3
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,
we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us,
alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. (Left Behind / pre-trib rapture)
Let no one deceive you in any way,
for it will not come
until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.
What is your problem, David Tree? Just because the SPECIFIC TRIALS and TRIBULATIONS and PERSECUTIONS that occurred to those believers in the first century are not FOR US because they were exclusively for THEM does not mean that the Church since that time did not and does not suffer trials and tribulations and persecutions. I DID NOT SAY THAT! I said the exact opposite.
That which Christians are suffering today are not those things Jesus told His disciples THEY would suffer. What don't you understand about that? THEY had particular enemies in THEIR time that would come upon THEM (i.e., Rome, the Jews). Jesus had PARTICULAR and SPECIFIC events of THAT historic setting in mind when He warned THEM of they would occur in THEIR lifetime. It's simple. ALL of it revolves around that specific generation and the historical ABOMINATION of DESOLATION (Jerusalem surrounded by armies--A.D. 70, Luke 21) that THOSE VERY disciples would see.
If you continue to rip passages out of their historical setting and ignore the CLEAR Audience Relevance, you will never understand Scripture!
That which Christians are suffering today are not those things Jesus told His disciples THEY would suffer. What don't you understand about that? THEY had particular enemies in THEIR time that would come upon THEM (i.e., Rome, the Jews). Jesus had PARTICULAR and SPECIFIC events of THAT historic setting in mind when He warned THEM of they would occur in THEIR lifetime. It's simple. ALL of it revolves around that specific generation and the historical ABOMINATION of DESOLATION (Jerusalem surrounded by armies--A.D. 70, Luke 21) that THOSE VERY disciples would see.
If you continue to rip passages out of their historical setting and ignore the CLEAR Audience Relevance, you will never understand Scripture!
How do you think any prophet OT & NT gained a reputation as being a prophet while the people waited for their big predictions to come true?
They heard these prophets give prophecies to others about their lives & it came true. They were known by their fruits.
While it may seem there's no more revelations of biblical proportions, local prophecies still exist. My wife was prophied to about receiving a man to marry. That was me.
I've had other prophecies told to me about my ministry that came true, including dreams & visions I've had myself.
I'm not gonna say there can't be prophecies that won't add/confirm the scriptures, because who knows if our Lord is finished speaking to His church?
They heard these prophets give prophecies to others about their lives & it came true. They were known by their fruits.
While it may seem there's no more revelations of biblical proportions, local prophecies still exist. My wife was prophied to about receiving a man to marry. That was me.
I've had other prophecies told to me about my ministry that came true, including dreams & visions I've had myself.
I'm not gonna say there can't be prophecies that won't add/confirm the scriptures, because who knows if our Lord is finished speaking to His church?
About whom did Paul say, "OUR gathering together to Him"? He spoke of himself and those believers of HIS day. Futurists wrongly contend that the Day of the Lord will involve a yet future rapture. First of all, there is no rapture taught in Scripture. Paul spoke of a soon-to-come return of Christ and a gathering together of all saints to HIM. This return and gathering together was clearly placed in the time of those DISCIPLES of Jesus' day. "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place." That included the gathering together by the mighty angels of all the elect (Mat. 24).
If the "Day of the Lord" was to occur in the manner futurists proclaim, how could ANYONE of that day have thought that it had already taken place? Such a notion is ridiculous.
FURTHERMORE, whoever or whatever the "restrainer" was, it was an entity of PAUL'S own day. THEY knew the identity. He or it was someone of THEIR day not OURS.
If the "Day of the Lord" was to occur in the manner futurists proclaim, how could ANYONE of that day have thought that it had already taken place? Such a notion is ridiculous.
FURTHERMORE, whoever or whatever the "restrainer" was, it was an entity of PAUL'S own day. THEY knew the identity. He or it was someone of THEIR day not OURS.
You said: "That which Christians are suffering today are not those things Jesus told His disciples THEY would suffer."
To even say such is an act of willful ignorance brought on by unbelief and a hard heart.
Christ prayed(and is praying) for those who belong to Him = especially for those who are suffering persecution as HE said in Matt ch24.
“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
"Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 6Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
7And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.
To even say such is an act of willful ignorance brought on by unbelief and a hard heart.
Christ prayed(and is praying) for those who belong to Him = especially for those who are suffering persecution as HE said in Matt ch24.
“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
"Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 6Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
7And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.
The 'modern church' will continue to fall away whereas the true Bride of Christ will continue to suffer for His name sake even being rejected and hated by those in the church buildings.
The spiritual maturity will not take place in buildings called 'churches' but in those who see His Coming drawing near and having love for one another outside of the building.
Read Acts (again)
The spiritual maturity will not take place in buildings called 'churches' but in those who see His Coming drawing near and having love for one another outside of the building.
Read Acts (again)