Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

breno785au · Oct 22, 2020

I did this to my best friend many years ago when he was going through a tough time. He lashed out at me and I got angry wondering why he did.
Sometimes it's like rubbing salt on a wound, in hindsight now I shouldn't have said anything and just prayed for him!
I see my motive now in that instance.

Magenta · Oct 22, 2020

breno785au said:

That sounds like quite a different scenario...

In this and similar scenarios, the poster is no friend when they repeatedly twist beyond recognition what another has said, overlaying instead their vain misguided imagination to completely misrepresent what another has said, refuses to admit to any error, denies the possibility of being wrong, and then lashes out when the truth is presented to them by saying among other things, I will pray for you. Phony to the max

breno785au · Oct 22, 2020

Magenta said:

I understand, different scenario but same motive. (I didn't actually fully explain my story just very brief rundown hehe)

soggykitten · Oct 22, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

I don't yell at people. And what is also important in matters of truth, I've never lied about someone elses beliefs.
You on the other hand insist I believe in works salvation, which at this point is a deliberate falsehood on your point and one you repeat regardless of how many times I correct your falsehood.
Repeatedly doing what you're doing is pride. You're proud to put your name to a bold faced slander and false witness against this Christian.

When I stand up against you, one committed to false witness, that isn't pride! That's determination not to be slandered by someone committed to the task and who has no shame in being public about it.
Christians don't make a habit of sinning..... Bearing false witness repeatedly against a Christian is habitual sin.

And now I really am done trying to reach you.
People think saying I'll pray for someone that works at being offensive is tantamount to the rude finger. One, whose mask slipped and showed me who they really are, claimed I'm false in my virtuosity for saying I'll pray for that which behaves as if they want me to see them as my enemy. Christ told us to pray for our enemies. That isn't false virtuosity.

And saying I'll pray for someone publicly is not just sincere but it is also so as to invite others who may be the target of that offenders posts to do the same.

Jackson123 · Oct 23, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

Last night, in YouTube, I listened to gotquetions.org, on the subject of lordship salvation. The speaker said that only lordship salvation saves. Anything less than that, is "easy believism" - and isn't able to save anyone. I also listened to John MacArthur in Youtube - preaching on the subject. He said Jesus and the apostles preached the need for repentance and the need to accept Jesus as Lord, in order for anyone to get saved. He mentioned a lot of Bible verses giving proof of this. He said many think they're saved, by praying the "sinner's prayer of repentance" - but make no effort to change their lives for the better. He said the word "repentance" means, "changing one's way of thinking - plans to do things differently." Both of these speakers said that belief isn't enough to save anyone. Only if coupled with repentance, does it save anyone. And many verses mentioned - showed repentace as preceding baptism and salvation - that's how the verses were worded! The verses mentioned repentance, before mentioningn all the other.
I've observed, that many evidently - true Christians believe that repentance isn't a necessary part to receiving salvation. I believe some of these Christians are true Christians. Since they appear to be walking in obedience to Christ in their daily lives. But their theology - their way of explaining it to others is incorrect. And so has the potential for misleading other people into "easy believism." With the result of their dying without Christ, often.
I talked to the husband of the home we clean house at yesterday about this, and he said that he has also noticed that many true Christians don't understand the subject the same as we do - who do see the need for repentance. He agreed it is hard for them to change their views on the subject, as they've learned incorrectly on it from habit and through people who taught that way. He said we must be loving towards them, though we can't agree on this subject - which is true, according to the Bible. But we dhould pray that they come to understand correctly on the subject.

So Lordship salvation is save by grace through faith and faith mean obey. Am I correct?
Easy believism is salvation by grace, no matter what you do you are save. Am I correct?

I think some people believe salvation by grace forget through faith.

To me grace come through faith, so if we don't have faith, we don't have grace.
And faith mean strive to obey.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 23, 2020

soggykitten said:

1. You believe the Work of water baptism is pet if the salvation process

2 I have asked you numerous times to show where Jesus proclaimed you Nicodemus that the process of being born again included believe. But also water baptism. You only answer is to show where it was mentioned BEFORE the actual conversation in question. And think that is the only proof you need
3. You belittle and make snide remarks to anyone who does not agree with you
4 you refuse to practice what you preach
in conclusion
You teach a works based salvation. You denying it does Not make it So one must look at the facts

The facts are to you, when Paul says It is not By works of righteousness which we have done. You think he means every work but water baptism

ForestGreenCook · Oct 23, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

It would seem to me that all of the scriptures must fit together in agreement, and we should not ignore any of them, but try to see the harmony of them. I am having trouble understanding how the unregenerate natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can truly repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern, and even thinks it to be foolishness. Can you explain this for me?

MyrtleTrees · Oct 23, 2020

Jackson123 said:

True - I think you and I agree alike on this! The faith that saves people, isn't strictly

Jackson123 said:

True - it looks like you and I believe alike on this! True faith isn't just strictly - believing. The devils believe, James says - yet it doesn't save them. So the word, "faith" - in the Bible - I believe, consists of belief combined with reverent obedience in one's life towards God, and daily sincere repentance of all daily unintentional sins. I agree - grace is not available to those who haven't been willing to go to this level of commitment required for satisfying God's requirements of them.

MyrtleTrees · Oct 23, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

1 Cor 2:14-16

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
KJV

Well, here's how I would explain the passage: As you say, all of the scriptures need to be believed to be God's Word And there are no contradictions in the scriptures. So when they at times look as though they contradict one another - it has to mean that we just don't presently understand them or their correlation with others. Bible wording can be confusing at times. But it helps a lot to compare scriptures when studying Bible subjects. And of course, to pray for God's help in interpretation of the scriptures.

Clearly, the Bible shows that unbelievers are capable of coming to repentance and making the choice to receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior, in response to the Spirit's proddings. So we know it can't mean they are entirely incapable of understanding the scriptures. It is reasonable, to see that they won't be as well able to understand them as compared to after they get saved. The big difference, I believe - is one's heart - one's will - what one chooses - God gives us all the ability to make choices in life. I believe the gospel becomes increasingly understandable according to how sincerely and urgently a person seeks after God.

Jer 29:13

13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
KJV

Comment: Below, you see how those who reject God, by doing so - are kept blind to the gospel.

2 Thess 2:8-12

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
KJV

Below, you see how Jesus reveals Himself only to those that God approves of:
Matt 11:27

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
KJV

Also, in order to be teachable enough to receive the gospel to the extent of getting saved - one needs to be willing to be that teachable. Below, that willingness to be taught of God, is described as "becoming like children."

Matt 18:3-4

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
KJV

MyrtleTrees · Oct 23, 2020

EleventhHour said:

True the modern term of "easy believism' isn't used in the Bible. But it's expressed in other ways. I know many verses on the subject.

MyrtleTrees · Oct 23, 2020

Budman said:

If all sins were intentional, then all people would go to heaven, regardless of how they lived. But I don't see this as the case.
I read the Bible a lot, and you must too, and that's good. But we aren't presently able to agree on this subject according to how we see them as explained in the scriptures.

ForestGreenCook · Oct 23, 2020

Budman said:

I have always wondered how the unregenerate natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can ever be saved eternally if he cannot discern (believe) the things of the Spirit. To me, Eph 2:1, helped me to understand how this is made possible. God quickens, the unregenerate natural man, to a spiritual life, when he is yet dead spiritually, and unable to believe in spiritual things. Verse 5 further reinforces this truth, quickening us together with Christ (We are in him, and he in us).

These scriptures have convinced me that believing in the things of the Spirit follows being regenerated, instead of being the cause of being regenerated.

2 Tim 2:13 says that if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself (we being in him, and him being in us through the new spiritual birth) This makes the grace of God more sovereign. God gets all of the glory, and mankind gets none.

Does this seem to make sense, or not?

MyrtleTrees · Oct 23, 2020

Blain said:

Well, I'd say it a bit differently though similar. I believe there are both absolutely essential truths to believe, and also the kind that are not absolutely essential. The absolutely essential kind are the kind relating to the way of salvation. We can't expect all people to understand or explain it exactly the same, even if sincere, as we're human and not all wise like God is. But as long as one has truly accepted God as Master of their life and repented, and living according to the gospel in daily life, they are saved.

However, the scriptures tell us not to argue with anyone - regardless of whether it is about salvation or the less important doctrines of the Bible. We are to reason with others, but when it becomes clear that they aren't interested in hearing what one has to say and are only getting irritated by the discussion - it usually means one should stop conversing with them about it.

Matt 7:6

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
KJV

Comment: And below, is a passage showing it isn't good for Christians to be arguing:

1 Cor 1:10-13

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
KJV

ForestGreenCook · Oct 23, 2020

Budman said:

Saved, according to Strong's concordance, means=delivered. There is a deliverance, that we receive here in time, when as regenerated new born babes in Christ, we gradually grow, and are taught, to come unto a knowledge of the righteousness of God (the gospel).

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.

John 6:28-29, Our believing is not our work, but is God's work given to us by regeneration.

oldethennew · Oct 23, 2020

JOHN 17:19.
And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21.
That they all may be One; as Thou, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be One in Us:
that the world may believe that Thou have sent Me.
22.
And the Glory which You gave Me I have given them; that they may be One, even as We are One:
23.
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in One; and that the world may know
that You have sent Me, and have loved them, as Thou have loved Me.

lenna · Oct 23, 2020

oldethennew · Oct 23, 2020

1JOHN 3:23.
And this is His Commandment, That we should believe on The Name of His Son Jesus Christ,
and love one another, as He gave us Commandment.

HEB. 11:6.
But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for He that cometh to God must believe that He is,
and that he is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

ForestGreenCook · Oct 23, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

Well, I'd say it a bit differently though similar. I believe there are both absolutely essential truths to believe, and also the kind that are not absolutely essential. The absolutely essential kind are the kind relating to the way of salvation. We can't expect all people to understand or explain it exactly the same, even if sincere, as we're human and not all wise like God is. But as long as one has truly accepted God as Master of their life and repented, and living according to the gospel in daily life, they are saved.

However, the scriptures tell us not to argue with anyone - regardless of whether it is about salvation or the less important doctrines of the Bible. We are to reason with others, but when it becomes clear that they aren't interested in hearing what one has to say and are only getting irritated by the discussion - it usually means one should stop conversing with them about it.

Matt 7:6

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
KJV

Comment: And below, is a passage showing it isn't good for Christians to be arguing:

1 Cor 1:10-13

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
KJV

We should be grounded by a knowledge of the gospel to defend the doctrine that Jesus taught that we henceforth be no more children (babes in Christ), tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the slight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

MyrtleTrees · Oct 23, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

Yes that's true, none of us are able to be 100% perfectly sinless. Only Jesus was capable of that, and in fact never ever sinned. But as Romans shows - we as humans, can't help but have to struggle against sin. The true Christian will prayerfully struggle against sin in daily life. But those who aren't sincere Christians, will willingly commit sins, without repentance. While those who are true Christians - have their sins forgiven by God, always, since they sincerely repent of their sins. Because of this - God counts them as "righteous."

2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
KJV

-

lenna · Oct 23, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

this ^^^^boggles the mind

here we see the error presented in real easy to understand manipulation of faith and works

Grace alone can't save anyone

Grace must be combined with the will

it is exactly grace alone that saves. unmerited favor

faith in that grace is acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice

however, for some reason, that is not good enough for some. nope. two things save you, nay three.

according to the op they are your will combined with grace and calling Jesus Lord and works

there is nothing in scripture to support this although all those things are in scripture, but they do not occur as a formula for salvation

Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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