Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
Yes McArthur used to be calvinist. Now he is dispensationalist, premill and has been a leading proponet of this Lordship salvation.
I didn't know they do not baptize. I'm not all that familiar with LS doctrine.
Used to be ? huh ? And he preached and wrote a whole book on Lordship salvation in the 80,s
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,363
113
Yes McArthur used to be calvinist. Now he is dispensationalist, premill and has been a leading proponet of this Lordship salvation.
I didn't know they do not baptize. I'm not all that familiar with LS doctrine.
As far as I recall MacArthur does hold to believers baptism. We know then that those who contend against it are not following him in that regard. God only knows what doctrine espouses that baptism is meaningless now. Or worse, is indicative of works salvation.
I think WS is a canard that allows opponents of the full true gospel to pile anything they dislike about the actual gospel under that banner. I think we can then use our experience to lead us to the answer of why that is.
 

RemnantRD

New member
Jun 7, 2020
15
9
3
Yes McArthur used to be calvinist. Now he is dispensationalist, premill and has been a leading proponet of this Lordship salvation.
I didn't know they do not baptize. I'm not all that familiar with LS doctrine.
Odd, has he also given up his beliefs on Cessationism? I don't have an issue with premill and believing what the bible says about the dispensation of the church age. I'm more surprised and happy that he came out of Calvinism :p
 

RemnantRD

New member
Jun 7, 2020
15
9
3
And lastly. Not one work of the law. Not a thing to do with that. You don't get it and that's sad for you.
Or maybe you do and you're of a different mind all together. That is sadder still.
You disavow everything James, the brother of Jesus taught about salvation.
And whatever side you really are on in the end you'll answer for it. You and those who are like you.
I do hope that believers do not equate obedience and faith (our reaction to the Lord's saving grace and an essential part of our salvation) as the Law (returning to the letter and ritual of the mosaic law and not the spiritual application of the law).
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
Yes McArthur used to be calvinist. Now he is dispensationalist, premill and has been a leading proponet of this Lordship salvation.
I didn't know they do not baptize. I'm not all that familiar with LS doctrine.
Has this happened today ? When has John M stopped being a Calvinist?
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
Odd, has he also given up his beliefs on Cessationism? I don't have an issue with premill and believing what the bible says about the dispensation of the church age. I'm more surprised and happy that he came out of Calvinism :p
Then I am so happy that you are happy
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,363
113
Odd, has he also given up his beliefs on Cessationism? I don't have an issue with premill and believing what the bible says about the dispensation of the church age. I'm more surprised and happy that he came out of Calvinism :p
In my view Calvinism and its offshoots are defeated by biblical context.
I'm no fan of MacArthur's tactics. He's dedicated sermons to condemning individual pastors for their teachings.
What I do respect though is MacArthur's resolve to defeat the Covidfornia dictator's twisted mandates against our faith by keeping his church open.
And refusing to submit to the demands of the unholy courts. That I do respect.

I found this as to MacArthur and Cessationism. Nothing newer I'm afraid. Not that it isn't out there I just haven't found it.

Adding this for those who may not know. What is Cessationism?
Those who believe the gifts of the Spirit have ceased are called cessationists, and their doctrine is cessationism, which means that the spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing have ceased with the end of the apostolic age.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,363
113
I do hope that believers do not equate obedience and faith (our reaction to the Lord's saving grace and an essential part of our salvation) as the Law (returning to the letter and ritual of the mosaic law and not the spiritual application of the law).
You're new. They're here.
Remember James? Faith without works is dead? There are those who ignore that and call it legalism, works salvation. There are those who disavow believers baptism (in water of course) as works salvation.
You're going to have fun here I expect.
 
L

lenna

Guest
Yes McArthur used to be calvinist. Now he is dispensationalist, premill and has been a leading proponet of this Lordship salvation.
I didn't know they do not baptize. I'm not all that familiar with LS doctrine.

well that would be something

so I went looking

dunno, but I found the following in Grace Church's doctrinal statement (Mac's church)

Election. We teach that election is the act of God by which, before the foundation of the world, He chose in Christ those whom He graciously regenerates, saves, and sanctifies (Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 1:1-2).

sounds pretty Calvinist to me :unsure: also, the biggest doctrinal statement I have ever seen in my life

site
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
In my view Calvinism and its offshoots are defeated by biblical context.
I'm no fan of MacArthur's tactics. He's dedicated sermons to condemning individual pastors for their teachings.
What I do respect though is MacArthur's resolve to defeat the Covidfornia dictator's twisted mandates against our faith by keeping his church open.
And refusing to submit to the demands of the unholy courts. That I do respect.

I found this as to MacArthur and Cessationism. Nothing newer I'm afraid. Not that it isn't out there I just haven't found it.

Adding this for those who may not know. What is Cessationism?
Those who believe the gifts of the Spirit have ceased are called cessationists, and their doctrine is cessationism, which means that the spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing have ceased with the end of the apostolic age.
Cessationalists typically believe that the ' sign ' gifts ceased with the completion of the bible. Just the sign gifts are in question .
 
L

lenna

Guest
Odd, has he also given up his beliefs on Cessationism?

nah

still prefers to account all speaking in tongues to demons

seems the Calvinism is still alive and well also...see my post above, like, to doctrinal statement

he is somewhat subtle about how he sorts scripture. you really have to read closely

I used to listen to him until I found out what he really believes
 
L

lenna

Guest
Cessationalists typically believe that the ' sign ' gifts ceased with the completion of the bible. Just the sign gifts are in question .

right and God knows I do NOT want a diversion into tongues, but you have to ignore alot of scripture to think tongues was only a sign gift :cautious:

not getting involved in another tongues discussion (this forum is replete with them) but dismissing teaching on tongues (in scripture) is not the method by which to disallow for it
 
L

lenna

Guest
I found this as to MacArthur and Cessationism. Nothing newer I'm afraid. Not that it isn't out there I just haven't found it.

ever here of his 'Strange Fire' conference? 2013
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,363
113
nah

still prefers to account all speaking in tongues to demons

seems the Calvinism is still alive and well also...see my post above, like, to doctrinal statement

he is somewhat subtle about how he sorts scripture. you really have to read closely

I used to listen to him until I found out what he really believes
I searched MacArthur in a date filter at YouTube. I just searched generally and found this. Having watched it I will say, if he wasn't in the pulpit he'd make a fortune selling lemon used cars. He can't give a direct answer and is slippery in his explanation when this short question and answer is supposedly addressing his views on Calvinism.


And then there is this. If JM left Calvinism I can't find anything new to that effect.

The Five Points of Calvinism
Defined, Defended and Documented
Afterward by John MacArthur

I am thankful for this timely revision of wonderful classic that has already been an immense blessing to countless thousands. Notwithstanding its success over the years, the only question that ultimately matters about the "five points of Calvinism" is whether these doctrines are biblical. This book has demonstrated (conclusively, in my judgment) that the "five points" are nothing more or less than what the Bible teaches. The doctrines of grace and divine sovereignty are the very lifeblood of the full and free salvation promised in the gospel.

Today Calvinism is being subjected to constant attack. Several recent, popular, published critiques have tried to discredit John Calvin the man, or they have unfairly blamed Calvinism for the dubious politics of the Reformation era. But the doctrines of Calvinistic soteriology must stand or fall by the test of Scripture, period.

Scripture speaks with absolute, unmistakable clarity on these vital issues: (1) Sinners are utterly helpless to redeem themselves or to contribute anything meritorious toward their own salvation (Rom 8:7-8). (2) God is sovereign in the exercise of His saving Will (Eph 1:4-5). (3) Christ died as a substitute who bore the full weight of God's wrath on behalf of His people, and his atoning work is efficacious for their salvation (Isa. 53:5). (4) God's saving purpose cannot be thwarted (John 6:37), meaning none of Christ's true sheep will ever be lost (John 10:27-29). That is because (5) God assures the perseverance of His elect (Jude 24; Phil 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5).

Those are the five points of Calvinism. I believe them not because of their historical pedigree, but because that is what Scripture teaches.

John F. MacArthur Jr.

Extracted from The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended and Documented. 2nd Edition : David Steele, Curtis Thomas, and Lance Quinn. Click title to learn more about the book.



 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
well that would be something

so I went looking

dunno, but I found the following in Grace Church's doctrinal statement (Mac's church)

Election. We teach that election is the act of God by which, before the foundation of the world, He chose in Christ those whom He graciously regenerates, saves, and sanctifies (Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 1:1-2).

sounds pretty Calvinist to me :unsure: also, the biggest doctrinal statement I have ever seen in my life

site
That's interesting, I'm going to take a look.........his lead in the lordship salvation theory would be hard to reconcile with Calvinism
 
L

lenna

Guest
That was the one where Mark Driscoll crashed it?

yes

A far better response, in the form of a book actually, has been submitted by Dr Brown

the thing there, is that Brown admits to the craziness that can be found in Pentecostal or Charismatic activities, but to lump everyone together as demonically infested, is going way beyond just observation and becomes a personal crusade

personal crusade are my words...but a great book
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
That's interesting, I'm going to take a look.........his lead in the lordship salvation theory would be hard to reconcile with Calvinism
Lordship salvation in Calvinsm is defined in their phrase ' Faith alone. But that faith is never alone. The consequence of the system ,especially the P in all practical sense is works salvation. This is why Calvinsm is a legalistic system.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
Lordship salvation in Calvinsm is defined in their phrase ' Faith alone. But that faith is never alone. The consequence of the system ,especially the P in all practical sense is works salvation. This is why Calvinsm is a legalistic system.
You are so clueless about the doctrines of calvinism ..... you make my teeth ITCH