Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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soggykitten

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The Bible of the early church was the Tanach. They did have oral traditions, but all that we need has been encapsulated in God’s Word and the canon of scripture was complete by the late first to early second century, somewhere in there. God saw to it.
The first canon was the Muratorian Canon of AD 170 and was discovered in 1700 in the Biblioteca Ambrosiana aka/Ambrosiana library in Milan Italy.
It is the oldest known canon of the New Testament but does not contain all of the NT books we know today.

Summation of Books Contained in the Muratorian Canon
https://www.christian-history.org/muratorian-canon.html

So the books listed in the Muratorian Canon are as follows:
  • Gospels: Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John
  • Acts
  • Letters of Paul to churches: Corinthians (2), Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Galatians, Thessalonians (2), Romans
  • Letters of Paul to individuals: Philemon, Titus, Timothy (2)
  • Jude, John (2)
  • Wisdom of Solomon(!)
  • Revelation of John
  • Revelation of Peter(!), questionable
  • Shepherd (or Pastor) of Hermas, good but not be read in church

 

GraceAndTruth

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The writers of the new testament gospels are anonymous.
We often presume the gospels were written by the apostles. Matthew, Mark....But were they?
Research and find out.

Jesus was the Messiah prophesied in the old testament and he brought the new covenant.
Jesus used many parables from the old testament to preach the coming of the new covenant. As Messiah the fulfillment of those prophecies were also part of his teachings.
Jesus quoted from 24 different Old Testament books

In the temple most of the Jews who attended unless they were well off, and those weren't many, were illiterate. The Tanakh was read to them.


Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”​

Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high”
Scriptures=γραφή (graphē)
Strong: G1124
GK: G1210
a writing; in NT the Holy Scriptures, the Jewish Scriptures, or Books of the Old Testament, Mt. 21:42; Jn. 5:39, et al.; by synec. doctrines, declarations, oracles, or promises contained in the sacred books, Mt. 22:29; Mk. 12:24, et al.; spc. a prophecy, Mt. 26:54; Mk. 14:49; Lk. 4:21; 24:27, 32; with the addition of προφητική, Rom. 16:26; of τῶν προφητῶν, Mt. 26:56

Acts 1:4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised,“Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth”

John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” [source:The Great Commission]​
I'm a sola scriptura to the core......whereever you are getting this malarky......get rid of it
 

GraceAndTruth

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Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
1¶Behold my servant,( SERVICE ) whom I uphold; mine ELECT , in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: ( PURPOSE ) he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

15¶But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a CHOSEN vessel unto me,( PURPOSE) to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

And on and on and on and on and on ......
Out of curiosity I'm asking this (tho I will probably regret it)
Why did God (the Potter) create vessels of wrath made for destruction??
 

throughfaith

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Do we fully understand His purposes?
On Election and predestination? After the word elect , chosen ect it is easy to read what they were chosen for or to do. The purpose of predestination? Again it says that because we are in an eternal being blessed with all spiritual blessings in him ,sealed by the Holy Spirit ( Spirit of Adoption) until the day of redemption, our assurance is given by our pre destination to glorification . Our security is based on these promises. Praise God . There's nothing difficult or mysterious here . We don't have to compare this with the trinity ( in understanding) This is revealed for our Joy , peace and assurance, so that we have the ' blessed hope ' , which purifies . Notice what comforts in times of suffering. Its not some concept about an ' election ' that took place before we existed, in God's mind that we can't really comprehend.
No what is revealed has a real practical application. Notice in Rom 8.
18¶For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, ( WHATS THE ADOPTION? ) to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
 

soggykitten

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I'm a sola scriptura to the core......whereever you are getting this malarky......get rid of it
Let's see.
Do you believe you are saved only by faith?
Do you believe the communion wine and bread are the literal blood and flesh of Christ?

You're aware that Exegesis in now way compromises sola scriptura?
 

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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The first canon was the Muratorian Canon of AD 170 and was discovered in 1700 in the Biblioteca Ambrosiana aka/Ambrosiana library in Milan Italy.
It is the oldest known canon of the New Testament but does not contain all of the NT books we know today.

Summation of Books Contained in the Muratorian Canon
https://www.christian-history.org/muratorian-canon.html

So the books listed in the Muratorian Canon are as follows:
  • Gospels: Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John
  • Acts
  • Letters of Paul to churches: Corinthians (2), Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Galatians, Thessalonians (2), Romans
  • Letters of Paul to individuals: Philemon, Titus, Timothy (2)
  • Jude, John (2)
  • Wisdom of Solomon(!)
  • Revelation of John
  • Revelation of Peter(!), questionable
  • Shepherd (or Pastor) of Hermas, good but not be read in church

There are more than just that fragment........however, the Muratorian is not THE bible
The manuscripts can be seen in part on Wiki among other places
The document contains a list of the books of the New Testament, a similar list concerning the Old Testament having apparently preceded it. It dates from around 170AD.....way after the Peshitta and the Old Latin Vulgate.



145 AD Peshitta is the Syriac version of the NT. Peshitta means “straight or rule, and set the standard because of it’s early composition and strong agreement with the Greek text underlying the KJV. Antioch is in Syria and was the seat of all Christian doctrine.

Justin Martyr mentions the gospels as being FOUR in number and quotes from them, also quotes some of the epistles of Paul and from the Revelation of John

Early church fathers quoted so extensively from the New Testament in their writings that it is said the entire NT can be reproduced from their writings alone.

NT books were in existence in their present form at the close of the apostolic age (end of 1st century)


150 AD Tatian’s Diatesseron
150 AD Itala bible the bible of the Baptists, first used by early Christians and Waldenses. Translated from the TR
157 AD Old Latin Vulgate (original Vulgate, not the corrupt version by Jerome)
135-200AD Iraenaeus quoted from all the NT books except Philemon, Jude, James, and 3 John
160-224 AD Tertulllian, a contemporary of Origen and Clement mentions all the NT books except 2 Peter, James and 2 John
165-220 AD Clement of Alexandria names all the books of the NT except Philemon, James, 2 Peter and 3 John. According to Eusebius, Clement gave explanations and quoted from ALL canonical books.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Let's see.
Do you believe you are saved only by faith?
Do you believe the communion wine and bread are the literal blood and flesh of Christ?

You're aware that Exegesis in now way compromises sola scriptura?
1. saved by the PROPITIATION, THE REASON FOR THIS THREAD
2. I believe water baptism and communion are symbolic
3. sola scriptura IS the bible alone and exegesis is a way to study it.......which I advocate.
 

throughfaith

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Out of curiosity I'm asking this (tho I will probably regret it)
Why did God (the Potter) create vessels of wrath made for destruction??
God is just to demonstrate his wrath and power through rebellious people (even if they are of His elect nation).
Through THEIR rebellion we ( gentiles ) benefit , his purposes are done through their rebellion .
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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they also had the letters of Paul......which were called "scripture" by Peter
Beginning around 50 AD or so, right?

You are correct. They had the writings of Paul, James, and others.
 

OIC1965

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Election and predestination are really easy to explain from the bible . They are both something that only applies AFTER conversion . Not before . Election = purpose and service. This is easy to understand. I'm not wrestling with anything lol . Its barely a thing , compared with predestination..Predestination is our assurance of our adoption to come . Rom 8.23 / Eph 1.5
You never showed me where the scripture says election and predestination happen after conversion. That request is still on the table.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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Out of curiosity I'm asking this (tho I will probably regret it)
Why did God (the Potter) create vessels of wrath made for destruction??
Rom 9 is about the temporary hardening of his elect ( Israel ) Through there disobedience his mercy is demonstrated to the Gentiles . for filling his purposes .
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known”

(1) By hardening Pharaoh God demonstrated his power over all the false Egyptian gods.

(2) Just as God manifests Himself through Pharaoh’s judicial hardening, He likewise does so through Israel’s judicial hardening.
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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On Election and predestination? After the word elect , chosen ect it is easy to read what they were chosen for or to do. The purpose of predestination? Again it says that because we are in an eternal being blessed with all spiritual blessings in him ,sealed by the Holy Spirit ( Spirit of Adoption) until the day of redemption, our assurance is given by our pre destination to glorification . Our security is based on these promises. Praise God . There's nothing difficult or mysterious here . We don't have to compare this with the trinity ( in understanding) This is revealed for our Joy , peace and assurance, so that we have the ' blessed hope ' , which purifies . Notice what comforts in times of suffering. Its not some concept about an ' election ' that took place before we existed, in God's mind that we can't really comprehend.
No what is revealed has a real practical application. Notice in Rom 8.
18¶For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, ( WHATS THE ADOPTION? ) to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Chosen to be holy and without blame before Him in love

Sanctification, justification, reconciliation/relationship. That’s salvation language there, friend.
 

OIC1965

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Timothy speaking of the Tanakh as we know.
2 Timothy 3:16 Every scripture[v] is inspired by God[w] and useful for teaching, for reproof,[x] for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the person dedicated to God[y] may be capable[z] and equipped for every good work.
FOOTNOTE
[v]
Or “All scripture.” There is very little difference in sense between every scripture (emphasizing the individual portions) and “all scripture” (emphasizing the composite whole). The former option is preferred, because it fits the normal use of the word “all/every” in Greek (πᾶς, pas) as well as Paul’s normal sense for the word “scripture” in the singular without the article, as here. So every scripture means “every individual portion of scripture.”

[w] Inspired by God. Some have connected this adjective in a different way and translated it as “every inspired scripture is also useful.” But this violates the parallelism of the two adjectives in the sentence, and the arrangement of words makes clear that both should be taken as predicate adjectives: “every scripture is inspired…and useful.”
There is no writing, tradition, or teaching that I am willing to stake my life and my soul on other than the Word of God.
 

OIC1965

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Rom 9 is about the temporary hardening of his elect ( Israel ) Through there disobedience his mercy is demonstrated to the Gentiles . for filling his purposes .
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known”

(1) By hardening Pharaoh God demonstrated his power over all the false Egyptian gods.

(2) Just as God manifests Himself through Pharaoh’s judicial hardening, He likewise does so through Israel’s judicial hardening.
I actually see it this way as well. I’m also glad you said the hardening of Israel is temporary. I’m in general agreement with you here.
 

throughfaith

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You never showed me where the scripture says election and predestination happen after conversion. That request is still on the table.
The problem were having is that every time you say the words ' election ' and predestination you and i have completely different meanings when we use these words . Your thinking Doctrines about the words ( a particular doctrine that is ) . I'm thinking what the words mean and the context in which the words are used .
 

OIC1965

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The problem were having is that every time you say the words ' election ' and predestination you and i have completely different meanings when we use these words . Your thinking Doctrines about the words ( a particular doctrine that is ) . I'm thinking what the words mean and the context in which the words are used .
So where does the Bible say election and predestination happen after our conversion?
 

soggykitten

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There is no writing, tradition, or teaching that I am willing to stake my life and my soul on other than the Word of God.
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, [aa] keeping a good conscience, so that those who slander your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame when they accuse you.[ab] 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if God wills it,[ac] than for doing evil.
 

throughfaith

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You never showed me where the scripture says election and predestination happen after conversion. That request is still on the table.
Eph 1.5
This is after we believe. Blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus. We were definitely not blessed with any spiritual blessings ( in the mind of God or otherwise ) until ( Eph 1.12-13)
This includes being predestined. This makes sense in light of eph 2.11-12 .
Being predestined is a spiritual blessings for a future physical reality in the future. The Adoption . Being predestined is the guarantee that the redemption of the body will happen.