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I do not believe the parable of the sower is depicting eternal life as bearing fruit, albiet His disciples will bear fruit.
The seed taken away before it can be received.. are the unbelievers.
All other examples are saved believers that had received the seed, but those that ground themselves in His words as kept in the KJV are the ones relying on Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd to do His work in them to bear fruit so that their joy may be full.
Bearing fruit is about discipleship ( See John 15th chapter ). The receiving of the seed is about salvation that has been received by believing in Him, but not every believer are being taught to be disciples in Jesus Christ in how they are to apply their faith in Him as their Good Shepherd for help in following Him since He is in us and is with us always.
John 8:[SUP]30 [/SUP]As he spake these words, many believed on him.[SUP] 31 [/SUP]Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;[SUP]32 [/SUP]And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.[SUP]33 [/SUP]They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.[SUP]35 [/SUP]And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.[SUP]36 [/SUP]If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 15:[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
So every saved believer found not abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes, will be rejected and shall receive stripes wherein all the wood, stubble, and hay shall be burned off of that foundation laid so that they shall be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.
The Lord calls saved believers and even His own disciples to prepare themselves or risk being cut off to be with the unbelievers left behind to face the coming fire on the earth in Luke 12:40-49 at this link below.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12%3A40-49&version=KJV
So we are called to bear fruit... and even when we think we are bearing fruit, His disciples will be pruned to bear more fruit.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Philippians 3:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,[SUP]14 [/SUP]I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Except for the one that did not receive the seed because it was snatched away by Satan, all other examples are saved believers in Christ, but only one example is the saved believer bearing fruit as His disciple.
The one that was persecuted and became offended by the word are those believers today that take the lies of men in science regarding the evolution theory and doubt His words to turn from Him... being one example is why being grounded in scripture is how one relying on Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd can see the assumptions & speculations and all the unproven hypothesis in the evolution theory as a fairy tale that cannot be observed by real science nor proven.
The one growing up in the thorns are the materialistic believers that worry a lot, and have their sights on the things of this earth, and have not become content at all. These be believers that need His help at that throne of grace to set their hearts and minds on the things above and treasure those things above and not the things on the earth, where moth & rust corrupt and thieves come in and steal. By asking Jesus fr help in trusting Him to take care of them and be thankful for what they do have, therein learn to be content with their sights set on the things above.
The ones not fruitful... are the ones that need to be taught by His disciples about trusting Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd for all things in order so that they can bear fruit. Just sowing the seed of the Good News will not help when they already have Him....they need to learn to live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ by trusting in Him as their Good Shepherd to do His work in them to bear fruit.
The seed taken away before it can be received.. are the unbelievers.
All other examples are saved believers that had received the seed, but those that ground themselves in His words as kept in the KJV are the ones relying on Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd to do His work in them to bear fruit so that their joy may be full.
Bearing fruit is about discipleship ( See John 15th chapter ). The receiving of the seed is about salvation that has been received by believing in Him, but not every believer are being taught to be disciples in Jesus Christ in how they are to apply their faith in Him as their Good Shepherd for help in following Him since He is in us and is with us always.
John 8:[SUP]30 [/SUP]As he spake these words, many believed on him.[SUP] 31 [/SUP]Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;[SUP]32 [/SUP]And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.[SUP]33 [/SUP]They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.[SUP]35 [/SUP]And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.[SUP]36 [/SUP]If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 15:[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
So every saved believer found not abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes, will be rejected and shall receive stripes wherein all the wood, stubble, and hay shall be burned off of that foundation laid so that they shall be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.
The Lord calls saved believers and even His own disciples to prepare themselves or risk being cut off to be with the unbelievers left behind to face the coming fire on the earth in Luke 12:40-49 at this link below.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12%3A40-49&version=KJV
So we are called to bear fruit... and even when we think we are bearing fruit, His disciples will be pruned to bear more fruit.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Philippians 3:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,[SUP]14 [/SUP]I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Except for the one that did not receive the seed because it was snatched away by Satan, all other examples are saved believers in Christ, but only one example is the saved believer bearing fruit as His disciple.
The one that was persecuted and became offended by the word are those believers today that take the lies of men in science regarding the evolution theory and doubt His words to turn from Him... being one example is why being grounded in scripture is how one relying on Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd can see the assumptions & speculations and all the unproven hypothesis in the evolution theory as a fairy tale that cannot be observed by real science nor proven.
The one growing up in the thorns are the materialistic believers that worry a lot, and have their sights on the things of this earth, and have not become content at all. These be believers that need His help at that throne of grace to set their hearts and minds on the things above and treasure those things above and not the things on the earth, where moth & rust corrupt and thieves come in and steal. By asking Jesus fr help in trusting Him to take care of them and be thankful for what they do have, therein learn to be content with their sights set on the things above.
The ones not fruitful... are the ones that need to be taught by His disciples about trusting Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd for all things in order so that they can bear fruit. Just sowing the seed of the Good News will not help when they already have Him....they need to learn to live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ by trusting in Him as their Good Shepherd to do His work in them to bear fruit.
If all other examples are saved believers, then WHERE IS THE FRUIT? Faith without works is dead, right?
Luke 8:13 - But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." Problem from the start.
Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start "has no root" represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this. Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief.
In regards to the thorny soil, the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal, making it [unfruitful]. The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation. Neither the stony ground hearer or the thorny ground hearer was fruitful.
Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English). The potential to eventually become established and produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something. In both cases, faith without works is dead.
In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" I have to conclude that if this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding? There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.
In regards to John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not believers (like Judas Iscariot) and those who were offended by the words of Jesus and walked with Him no more - John 6:60-64. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10,11).
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). NONE
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.
*So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
Luke 8:13 - But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." Problem from the start.
Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start "has no root" represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this. Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief.
In regards to the thorny soil, the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal, making it [unfruitful]. The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation. Neither the stony ground hearer or the thorny ground hearer was fruitful.
Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English). The potential to eventually become established and produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something. In both cases, faith without works is dead.
In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" I have to conclude that if this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding? There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.
In regards to John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not believers (like Judas Iscariot) and those who were offended by the words of Jesus and walked with Him no more - John 6:60-64. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10,11).
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). NONE
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.
*So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
No. Only one example is not a saved believer and that is the one Satan took the seed out of their heart from being sown.
Verbalizing faith in God's Providence without leading by example is dead. That is the only kind of faith James was talking about.
Remember 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 where if a man only had stubble, hay, and wood, it is burned up in fire, but yet he is still saved as verse 15 says, because that foundation remains? Where are his fruits even though he is still saved?
Faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is without works because that is the glory of God in salvation showing off the power of God in salvation for all those that believe.. even in His name.
If you apply James' faith without works towards faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then Paul opposes that application.
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?[SUP] 2 [/SUP]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,[SUP] 7 [/SUP]Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Since both Paul & James held the right hand of fellowship, and that there is no other gospel.... then they speak the same thing and so what James was talking about in reproving is that a church should lead by example when verbalizing their faith in God providing for the departing poor by meeting their immediate needs of those starving and perishing from the elements and that whatever is left over from the bounty collected at church, is the provision for the church to operate on for that day and tomorrow and until next week. It was in the eyes of the poor that the church's faith in God's Providence will not profit nor save the poor when the church is unwilling to lead by example. James was never talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation for it is without works which is why Paul & James spoke the same thing.
Do note what I had boldened and underlines in your quoted reference.
If you think about it, kind of a hard judgment on all backsliding christians, thus calling them unsaved. It is because they have been bought with a price and sealed as His is why they need to go before that throne of grace for help in departing from iniquity. We do not get to write them off of our responsibility to correct them in Christ's love so while we have opportunity, let us do good to the household of the faith.
Saving belief is when the seed has been received. What withers away is the result of the cares of this life choking out the word and so that is why they are unfruitful. Kind of like .. letting the waves and winds of your storm to take your eyes off of Jesus Christ Who can help you through it. Do you preach the gospel to a worrywart of a professing believer or do you counsel and minster by His words so that the Lord will help them lift up their heads to keep their eyes on Him?
Again.. when confronting the "problems" that is affecting growth in Him and in bearing fruit, do you preach the gospel or share scripture about not worrying about the cares of this life.. to be content.. to set their sights and hearts on the things above and not the things of the earth?
That is why I do not see it as the fruit of salvation... because salvation is without works and is without fruits... but living that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ as His disciple is about bearing fruit so that our joy may be full.
Jesus did warn His disciples that they could become castaways in Luke 12:40-49. Paul certain said that it could happen to himself, and not just lose the rewards of crowns.
1 Corinthians 9:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.[SUP] 25 [/SUP]And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.[SUP] 26 [/SUP]I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:[SUP]27 [/SUP]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Of Judas, there is no argument, but applying Judas to John 15th chapter is not agreeable. Judas was not offended by His words. He simply did not believe in Him.
Also... the branch was a part of the vine.. and was cut off.. therefore hardly applying to Judas whom was never a believer.
John 15th chapter is about bearing fruit as His disciple; not about salvation. There are consequences for not abiding in Him as His disciples and that is to be cut off as John 15:6 testify. When read with Luke 12:40-49, we see that the cut off is referring to being left behind at the pre trib rapture event... and yet He still calls them His servants as they receive stripes for the degree of iniquity that they had committed.... many stripes if they knew it was iniquity and less stripes if they knew it was not an iniquity.
Correct. The church was born on Pentecost. The disciples were officially saved at Pentecost. BUT Jesus was speaking in regards to future saved believers in how to abide in Him as His disciples and why they should.. to bear fruit and that their joy may be full.
If we are held accountable by what we sow towards... the works of the flesh or to the fruits of the Spirit.... then we cannot see discipleship of bearing fruits as an indicator of how one is saved or not, because then where is the race to lay aside every weight & sin by looking to the author & finisher of our faith?
If the race is salvation... then how can we tell any one that we are saved yet when that race is still in the running? That race is about discipleship in bearing fruit. You cannot run that race unless He is in you; hence seed received.
I do not see you wasting time correcting errant carnal believers by preaching the gospel that they already know. You correct them by the scripture of what they need to go to Jesus Christ for help in repenting from. That's discipleship. Not salvation.
So no. The parable of the sower has to be discerned again and reapplied differently than how you are doing it.
[video=youtube;_rR_Rdb1CTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rR_Rdb1CTE[/video]
Verbalizing faith in God's Providence without leading by example is dead. That is the only kind of faith James was talking about.
Remember 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 where if a man only had stubble, hay, and wood, it is burned up in fire, but yet he is still saved as verse 15 says, because that foundation remains? Where are his fruits even though he is still saved?
Faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is without works because that is the glory of God in salvation showing off the power of God in salvation for all those that believe.. even in His name.
If you apply James' faith without works towards faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then Paul opposes that application.
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?[SUP] 2 [/SUP]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,[SUP] 7 [/SUP]Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Since both Paul & James held the right hand of fellowship, and that there is no other gospel.... then they speak the same thing and so what James was talking about in reproving is that a church should lead by example when verbalizing their faith in God providing for the departing poor by meeting their immediate needs of those starving and perishing from the elements and that whatever is left over from the bounty collected at church, is the provision for the church to operate on for that day and tomorrow and until next week. It was in the eyes of the poor that the church's faith in God's Providence will not profit nor save the poor when the church is unwilling to lead by example. James was never talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation for it is without works which is why Paul & James spoke the same thing.
Do note what I had boldened and underlines in your quoted reference.
If you think about it, kind of a hard judgment on all backsliding christians, thus calling them unsaved. It is because they have been bought with a price and sealed as His is why they need to go before that throne of grace for help in departing from iniquity. We do not get to write them off of our responsibility to correct them in Christ's love so while we have opportunity, let us do good to the household of the faith.
Saving belief is when the seed has been received. What withers away is the result of the cares of this life choking out the word and so that is why they are unfruitful. Kind of like .. letting the waves and winds of your storm to take your eyes off of Jesus Christ Who can help you through it. Do you preach the gospel to a worrywart of a professing believer or do you counsel and minster by His words so that the Lord will help them lift up their heads to keep their eyes on Him?
Again.. when confronting the "problems" that is affecting growth in Him and in bearing fruit, do you preach the gospel or share scripture about not worrying about the cares of this life.. to be content.. to set their sights and hearts on the things above and not the things of the earth?
That is why I do not see it as the fruit of salvation... because salvation is without works and is without fruits... but living that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ as His disciple is about bearing fruit so that our joy may be full.
Jesus did warn His disciples that they could become castaways in Luke 12:40-49. Paul certain said that it could happen to himself, and not just lose the rewards of crowns.
1 Corinthians 9:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.[SUP] 25 [/SUP]And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.[SUP] 26 [/SUP]I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:[SUP]27 [/SUP]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Of Judas, there is no argument, but applying Judas to John 15th chapter is not agreeable. Judas was not offended by His words. He simply did not believe in Him.
Also... the branch was a part of the vine.. and was cut off.. therefore hardly applying to Judas whom was never a believer.
John 15th chapter is about bearing fruit as His disciple; not about salvation. There are consequences for not abiding in Him as His disciples and that is to be cut off as John 15:6 testify. When read with Luke 12:40-49, we see that the cut off is referring to being left behind at the pre trib rapture event... and yet He still calls them His servants as they receive stripes for the degree of iniquity that they had committed.... many stripes if they knew it was iniquity and less stripes if they knew it was not an iniquity.
Correct. The church was born on Pentecost. The disciples were officially saved at Pentecost. BUT Jesus was speaking in regards to future saved believers in how to abide in Him as His disciples and why they should.. to bear fruit and that their joy may be full.
If we are held accountable by what we sow towards... the works of the flesh or to the fruits of the Spirit.... then we cannot see discipleship of bearing fruits as an indicator of how one is saved or not, because then where is the race to lay aside every weight & sin by looking to the author & finisher of our faith?
If the race is salvation... then how can we tell any one that we are saved yet when that race is still in the running? That race is about discipleship in bearing fruit. You cannot run that race unless He is in you; hence seed received.
I do not see you wasting time correcting errant carnal believers by preaching the gospel that they already know. You correct them by the scripture of what they need to go to Jesus Christ for help in repenting from. That's discipleship. Not salvation.
So no. The parable of the sower has to be discerned again and reapplied differently than how you are doing it.
[video=youtube;_rR_Rdb1CTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rR_Rdb1CTE[/video]
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lack of fruit mean lack of abiding.
that good statement.
Lack of abibing Will be Cut and send It to fire/hell/not save.
so why some people believe that No matter you do, ex, killing every day, AS long AS you are His son, you go to heaven, though No reward. Is that any posibility for a person abide to the vine and killing every day?
that good statement.
Lack of abibing Will be Cut and send It to fire/hell/not save.
so why some people believe that No matter you do, ex, killing every day, AS long AS you are His son, you go to heaven, though No reward. Is that any posibility for a person abide to the vine and killing every day?
That is what I agree. People in my church believe one save always save, No matter what you do, AS long AS you are his son, not going to change in to Slave.
son is son.
I can fell the fruit of jealousy in the Atmosphere, they are not get along, No love.
I think because they believe No love doesn't change the status, you are His son.
I am not in the leadership, but one of them tell me, that there is No love among them.
is that possible for a man abide to the vine with No love?
son is son.
I can fell the fruit of jealousy in the Atmosphere, they are not get along, No love.
I think because they believe No love doesn't change the status, you are His son.
I am not in the leadership, but one of them tell me, that there is No love among them.
is that possible for a man abide to the vine with No love?
There are 2 kinds of inheritance in the kingdom of God; the vessels unto honor that trust Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd to help them lay aside every weight & sin in abiding in Him as His disciple to be taken to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb at the pre trib rapture event. They shall be liken unto angels that never die and are not given to marriage, and have a place in the city of God above that will come down to earth to dwell among men after the great tribulation.
The vessels unto dishonor are those that did NOT look to Jesus for help in departing from iniquity. If they do not repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes, they shall be left behind to be received after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House who will have their tears wiped away to get past the loss of their first inheritance and serve the King of kings in raising up the generations coming in the milleniel reign of Christ as they will not have a place in the city of God, but they will represent the city and the Lord as they are placed all over the world in serving the King of kings, and will marry to raise children as an example of leadership in managing their homes as the bishops are to do Biblically now to prove they can manage by example the House of God during the milleniel reign.
For the one example of a believer killing... if he already knows the gospel... what do you do then? It is because he is saved that you should rebuke him and appeal to him to go before that throne of grace to have Jesus Christ deliver him from that bondage of sin to hate & to react on malice.
It is true that there will be no reward, but that foundation remains, and while he or she still have breath, they can call on Jesus for help to depart from that iniquity that has gripped them to kill. It is still possible that the Lord will recover them from that snare of the devil or any snare of the devil and become vessels unto honor to be received by Him at the Marriage Supper which is the pre trib rapture event.
But once that door is shut... once that pre trib rapture has come & gone... the voice of the bride & Bridegroom is over.
The next voice that saved believers left behind will hear... is the King of kings reclaiming His lost sheep for He is the Good Shepherd, even to those lost sheep left behind for they have His seal.
The vessels unto dishonor are those that did NOT look to Jesus for help in departing from iniquity. If they do not repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes, they shall be left behind to be received after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House who will have their tears wiped away to get past the loss of their first inheritance and serve the King of kings in raising up the generations coming in the milleniel reign of Christ as they will not have a place in the city of God, but they will represent the city and the Lord as they are placed all over the world in serving the King of kings, and will marry to raise children as an example of leadership in managing their homes as the bishops are to do Biblically now to prove they can manage by example the House of God during the milleniel reign.
For the one example of a believer killing... if he already knows the gospel... what do you do then? It is because he is saved that you should rebuke him and appeal to him to go before that throne of grace to have Jesus Christ deliver him from that bondage of sin to hate & to react on malice.
It is true that there will be no reward, but that foundation remains, and while he or she still have breath, they can call on Jesus for help to depart from that iniquity that has gripped them to kill. It is still possible that the Lord will recover them from that snare of the devil or any snare of the devil and become vessels unto honor to be received by Him at the Marriage Supper which is the pre trib rapture event.
But once that door is shut... once that pre trib rapture has come & gone... the voice of the bride & Bridegroom is over.
The next voice that saved believers left behind will hear... is the King of kings reclaiming His lost sheep for He is the Good Shepherd, even to those lost sheep left behind for they have His seal.
so you agree that there is Christian WHO kill every day and go to heaven, because their foundation remains?
I believe the foundation of the church is Christ, the vine also Christ.
The foundation always remain, and vine always remain because Christ always remain. But If the building or the branch not attact to the foundation or vine, the building Will collapse and the branch Will dry.
I believe the foundation of the church is Christ, the vine also Christ.
The foundation always remain, and vine always remain because Christ always remain. But If the building or the branch not attact to the foundation or vine, the building Will collapse and the branch Will dry.
No. That christian is at risk of being left behind at the pre trib rapture event. He or she will lose their first inheritance of being that vessel unto honor in His House unless they look to Him for help to repent & to keep them from that sin, but if they do get left behind, they shall be received after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor, but still in His House, except their inheritance is on earth...not in Heaven... they are a part of the kingdom of God, but no place to call home in the city of God.
That is your error. When God had addressed every church in Revelation, in the church at Thaytira, He addressed those that did not have those errant doctrines.. that did not speak the utter depths of Satan for which those in error speak.... He encouraged those not in error in spite of that church at Thyatira to hold fast the traditions taught until He comes.
So a believer is not judged by that church, but judged by his or her practice... by what he or she has sown on that foundation...whether it is sowing to the works of the flesh which includes heresy, or sowing to the fruits of the Spirit, looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help to do His work in them in producing fruits as His disciples.
No church can be judged by one errant believer not following what the church taught and no believer that abides in Him but not follow the errant doctrine of the church will be judged by that church.
Christ is the head of every believer and it is by Him we seek to be presented by Him as He is our Good Shepherd as well as our Saviour, but not every believer does that when they look to the church to do His work in them.
We are to live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend. Believe in Him for that.
That is your error. When God had addressed every church in Revelation, in the church at Thaytira, He addressed those that did not have those errant doctrines.. that did not speak the utter depths of Satan for which those in error speak.... He encouraged those not in error in spite of that church at Thyatira to hold fast the traditions taught until He comes.
So a believer is not judged by that church, but judged by his or her practice... by what he or she has sown on that foundation...whether it is sowing to the works of the flesh which includes heresy, or sowing to the fruits of the Spirit, looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help to do His work in them in producing fruits as His disciples.
No church can be judged by one errant believer not following what the church taught and no believer that abides in Him but not follow the errant doctrine of the church will be judged by that church.
Christ is the head of every believer and it is by Him we seek to be presented by Him as He is our Good Shepherd as well as our Saviour, but not every believer does that when they look to the church to do His work in them.
We are to live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend. Believe in Him for that.
Originally Posted by valiant
If you truly accept Christ and believe from the heart in Him you will not kill every day. He will be in you and will change you. 'It is God who works in you to will and do of His good pleasure' Phil 2.13
The question with some people is as to whether they have truly done this, but God does not fail.,
I do not think it possible that a person whom God has saved will kill every day (unless he is a soldier or airman at war). You seem to think that God leaves it to us how we behave. But when God saves us He changes us, He chastens us when necessary, and He works in us to will and do of His good pleasure. His salvation is active and powerful. HE SAVES.
That mean Changed person doesn't mean not able to commit sin anymore, Am I correct?
changed person have possibility of commiting sin, It mean change person have a free Will.
change person have a free Will, mean change person have possibility change his mind and not abide to the vine
than not bear fruit, than Cut of and trown to lake of fire
changed person have possibility of commiting sin, It mean change person have a free Will.
change person have a free Will, mean change person have possibility change his mind and not abide to the vine
than not bear fruit, than Cut of and trown to lake of fire