Luke 17 - Where are they taken?

[Absolutely]

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This seems to suggest that the wicked are the ones taken.[/QUOT

Jesus said it was at the end of the world. Wicked taken at the end of the world.
The one taken from a Housetop/workplace/bed are not a end of world dynamic

 

[SoulWeaver]

Jesus said it was at the end of the world. Wicked taken at the end of the world.
The one taken from a Housetop/workplace/bed are not a end of world dynamic

The idea that I was proposing is that the wicked are the world.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive,

 

[SoulWeaver]

The prison is the temporal grave for those Old testament saints who fell asleep in Christ..

There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that proves this. It is an assumption. If I missed it, correct me.

 

[Absolutely]

Those who are taken will become the dead bodies. They're being taken by the angels to be killed by that double-edged sword.

When Jesus said, "one will be taken" the disciples said, "Where, Lord," i.e. where are they going to be taken? Then Jesus answers "wherever the carcass (dead body) is, there will the vultures be gathered. Therefore, the "one taken" group, which represent the wicked, are those who will be collected by the angels at the end of the age and will be taken to Jesus to be killed by that double-edged sword, where their spirits are thrown into the furnace.

Who is left?
Has to be righteous believers (under your template)
So now we have devils with a mark in their foreheads in ned with unbelievers.
So,so ,so many problems with ascribing a warzone to a peacetime dynamic,and making the lof at the rapture

 

[Absolutely]

The idea that I was proposing is that the wicked are the world.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive,

Burned in the lof.
(End of the world)

 

[Absolutely]

This refers directly to the Battle of Armageddon, and not the Rapture as some think! Ezek. 39:17

JSM

Test fit it and it fails on many,many counts

 

[Absolutely]

There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that proves this. It is an assumption. If I missed it, correct me.

What are you referring to?

 

[SoulWeaver]

What are you referring to?

I was referring to this being an assumption:
"The prison is the temporal grave for those Old testament saints who fell asleep in Christ.. "

First, there is no Scriptural proof for this. Also, if this is taken so, as this prison being the location filled with the dead saints called Sheol, there is the problem of Jesus being too dead to preach to them, and also these people being too dead to hear.
Being that the Bible teaches that the dead speak not, hear not, know nothing etc. Jesus could not "preach" and they could not hear Him. I would not take it literally for this reason.
Therefore I believe it to mean that after being quickened by the Spirit, by same spirit, Jesus released the prisoners to the bondage/shackles of sin:
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Notice that the verse 19 does NOT specify at all when did Jesus preach to the people in prison: people just assume about what prison is or when it happened without proof.
I connect it with these Scriptures:

Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Also:
Psalms 146:7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners:
8 The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind...)

 

[garee]

Parables are a story within a story.
The rich man and laz actually happened.
Not a parable.
They were not flood victims exclusively.
The wicked man that was denied resurrection was hypothetical.
All the rich man could do was warn of hell.
Jesus resurrection was new life. A life message. Not a warning of hell.
A overlap of truth in this case (the jews rejecting Jesus resurrection) is not a monumental doctrine establisher

The literalist it would seem makes parables little stories and not mighty words to convey the gospel .Without parables Christ spoke not. Not without literalizing he spoke not. Scripture the signified language clearly provides more than one level of understanding.

Luke 15 and 16 give us a series of parables that all in the end have the same conclusion or purpose . If they hear not Moses, the law and the prophets God's two witnesses(sola scriptura) than neither will they believe when Jesus arising from the tomb

The whole series of parables are protecting the integrity of his word. The end of the rich man represent the whole series as to the understanding of that parable. The conclusion is not when God takes away the temporal breath of life men can still suffer without a body or spirit.

Note. . (purple in parenthesis) my added sugestion.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, (the word of God) neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Luke 16: 31

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Prophesying using parables to hide the unseen spiritual understanding from natural unconverted mankind. Christ revealed it to those who do look to the unseen spiritual understanding, walking by faith (the unseen understanding. Comparing the spiritual things not seen (understanding) to the same. Not comparing the literal understanding to the literal. . . letter of the law

The idea of sneaking in a literal interpretation in the middle of a series of parable to trick the reader .Does not hold water.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, (the literal understanding. ) but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (unseen things) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1 Corithians 2: 12-14

 

[Absolutely]

Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it will be in the days of the Son of man
People were eating and drinking,marrying and being given in marriage up to the day
Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

Luke 17: 26-27 NIV

It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling
planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom fire and sulphur rained down from
heaven and destroyed them all.

Luke 17: 28 -29 NIV

It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day no-one
who is on the roof of his house with his goods inside should go down and get them
Likewise no-one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lots wife!
Whosoever tries to keep his life shall lose it and whosoever loses his life shall
shall preserve it.

Luke 17: 30 - 33 NIV

I tell you on that night two people will be in one bed
one will be taken and another left. Two women will be grinding
corn together one will be taken and the other left. Where Lord they asked
He replied where there is a dead body the vultures will be gathered together.

Luke 17: 34 - 37 NIV

And I saw an Angel standing in the Sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the
birds flying in mid air Come gather together for the great supper of God
So that you may eat the flesh of kings generals and mighty men, of horses and their
riders and the flesh of all people free and slave small and great.

Rev 19: 17 - 19 NIV

Now brothers about times and dates we do not need to write to you for you know very well the day of the lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying peace and safety destruction will come on them suddenly as labour pains on a pregnant woman and they will not escape

1 Thess 5: 1 - 3

To understand what Jesus is saying to his disciples we need to read the conversation in context. He gives examples of Noah and Lots
days and what happened to the people outside the Ark and inside Sodom. He goes on to advise them to flee and not bother to collect anything from their homes. If this was about some silent pre tribulation rapture what would be the point of telling them all this?
The emphasis is on sudden destruction when its not expected by the world in general and Israel in particular. Paul confirms this
in 1 Thessalonians. Jesus is not talking about the rapture. He is talking about the second coming and Armageddon. The rapture
happens at the second coming. Its not the people left behind who are destroyed but the people who are taken. Noah was left behind in the Ark and Lot was left behind when Sodom was destroyed.

You are oblivious that noah and lot,in order to make them into a postrib gathering,you need them to do,or represent something POSTRIB/POST JUDGEMENT. Relate noah to the end of the flood,relate lot to the aftermath of sodom.
That dog wont hunt

 

[Absolutely]

I was referring to this being an assumption:
"The prison is the temporal grave for those Old testament saints who fell asleep in Christ.. "

First, there is no Scriptural proof for this. Also, if this is taken so, as this prison being the location filled with the dead saints called Sheol, there is the problem of Jesus being too dead to preach to them, and also these people being too dead to hear.
Being that the Bible teaches that the dead speak not, hear not, know nothing etc. Jesus could not "preach" and they could not hear Him. I would not take it literally for this reason.
Therefore I believe it to mean that after being quickened by the Spirit, by same spirit, Jesus released the prisoners to the bondage/shackles of sin:
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Notice that the verse 19 does NOT specify at all when did Jesus preach to the people in prison: people just assume about what prison is or when it happened without proof.
I connect it with these Scriptures:

Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Also:
Psalms 146:7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners:
8 The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind...)

The thief on the cross.
The fact he descended to hades at his death
The "took captivity captive" verse
What samuel told saul when the witch brought him before saul.
That there were two separate regions in paradise. One of fire and suffering/one of paradise. they could see each other

 

[Absolutely]

That sounds like circular evidence.

There are problems if we take Hades as a place.
The first problem - Jesus was dead. He gave up the (Holy) ghost, His body was pierced, and His soul died because He became sin for us. So triple dead, body, soul and spirit. Now, which part of Jesus was then preaching in Hades?
To make this worse, Jesus is the Word of God.
So if Word of God was dead in Sheol, who communicated the message?
The Bible teaches that the dead see not, hear not, speak not, have no knowledge, know nothing, and so forth...
(This brings up another problem, how would the listeners hear when they are dead and "know nothing", and seems to seriously discourage taking this so literally, and rather talks about the spiritually dead)
If we have to challenge basic premises of the Bible such as Jesus being really dead during those 3 days, or ask ourselves questions such as "How dead is dead?", taking Sheol as a place calls for rethinking.
I could continue, but let's focus on this for now.

Regarding the reference in Jonah foreshadowing Jesus being buried:
There is no Scriptural evidence to confirm that "the heart of the earth" is a specific location.
But there is multiple Bible evidence which suggests that this is a figure of speech:
"heart of the seas" in Jonah 2:3, also "heart of the heavens"/"midst of heaven" in Deut 4:11
Matthew Poole's Commentary
...and the midst or the heart of it is not only that which is strictly and properly the middle part, but that which is within it, though but a little way, in which sense places or persons or things are said to be in the heart of the sea, Exodus 15:8 Proverbs 23:34 Ezekiel 28:2; and Christ in the heart of the earth, Matthew 12:40.
It is reasonable to take this a poetic way to say "underground", which would be apt as Jesus was enclosed in a cave.

As to, what was Jesus doing there then? Well, I think it was not a location, but a state of being dead, imo, which clears up the said problems. There was also the location of the literal cave for the body, so Jonah's foreshadowing isn't contradicted. I've wrote in post #116 that preaching is not directly tied to Jesus being in the grave (people add to this verse what is not there because they take Sheol as some spiritual dimension place), and about when did actually Jesus preach, at least what I believe so far.

Jesus was dead. He gave up the (Holy) ghost, His body was pierced, and His soul died because He became sin for us. So triple dead, body, soul and spirit.

No,just dead body
The thief as well,only their bodies were dead.
Soul and spirit continue at death.

 

[SoulWeaver]

No,just dead body
The thief as well,only their bodies were dead.
Soul and spirit continue at death.

The Scripture tells us otherwise:
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Furthermore, as He became sin for us, His soul died, as the judgment of God was poured on Him.
God breathing His breath/spirit into the person makes one a living soul, as the Bible says.

Jesus was not a living soul at that point, He was dead, if He was actually living somehow, that would seriously contradict the basic Bible teaching about the Crucifixion.

 

[Absolutely]

The Scripture tells us otherwise:
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Furthermore, as He became sin for us, His soul died, as the judgment of God was poured on Him.
God breathing His breath/spirit into the person makes one a living soul, as the Bible says.

Jesus was not a living soul at that point, He was dead, if He was actually living somehow, that would seriously contradict the basic Bible teaching about the Crucifixion.

Is this belief of yours connected to soul sleep?

Everyone that dies,their spirit and soul continue whether righteous or not. They are eternal.
No such thing as a spirit or soul dying.
Fact.
Where did you get that from?
Those verses you posted do not make any case for a soul and spirit dying.

 

[Absolutely]

Why do people leave those ugly red x's
Its so ugly

 

[SoulWeaver]

Is this belief of yours connected to soul sleep?

Everyone that dies,their spirit and soul continue whether righteous or not. They are eternal.
No such thing as a spirit or soul dying.
Fact.
Where did you get that from?
Those verses you posted do not make any case for a soul and spirit dying.

The soul is not eternal, as the Scripture states that every soul that sins shall die.
Also, the Scripture states, that "the spirit returns to the one who gave it"
Basically spirit is borrowed to you from God, so you can have a living soul.
I am getting my beliefs from the Bible:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
body + spirit ("the Spirit giveth life") = living soul
Jesus "gave up the ghost" = not a living soul
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Our sin was imputed to Jesus, and this is exactly why He died.

No, this is not connected to soul sleep, if you have time please get back a few pages since it's a big conversation. I tried to retell shortly but it's a lot.

 

[Absolutely]

The soul is not eternal, as the Scripture states that every soul that sins shall die.
Also, the Scripture states, that "the spirit returns to the one who gave it"
Basically spirit is borrowed to you from God, so you can have a living soul.
I am getting my beliefs from the Bible:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
body + spirit ("the Spirit giveth life") = living soul
Jesus "gave up the ghost" = not a living soul
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Our sin was imputed to Jesus, and this is exactly why He died.

No, this is not connected to soul sleep, if you have time please get back a few pages since it's a big conversation. I tried to retell shortly but it's a lot.

The soul/spirit separates from the body at death.
Never dies.

That is all those verses prove

 

[SoulWeaver]

Why do people leave those ugly red x's
Its so ugly

It means that you disagree.
I usually don't put x's to every post I disagree with.
I just put it on that one, because I thought that you really should go back to the basics like learn that Jesus gave up the ghost after it was finished, and that the soul that sins shall die (it is exactly why we humans are mortal), before arguing the opposite.
You need to back up what you say with the Bible.

 

[SoulWeaver]

The soul/spirit separates from the body at death.
Never dies.
That is all those verses prove

Every soul that sins shall die. Our sins were imputed to Jesus, so His righteousness could be imputed to us.
If Jesus did not die for our sins, then there was no sacrifice.
If there was no sacrifice, there is no payment to redeem us, so there is no salvation.
I will not be responding to your posts further.

 

[Melach]

@dcontroversal have you heard the argument that when st.paul uses the word "mystery" he is talking always about something Jesus told him that wasnt said before by Jesus in earthly ministry?

do you agree or disagree