Mainline Christianity's Common Core of Beliefs; and Denominational Disagreements.

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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#1
I am starting this THREAD as a place where any Christian Topic can be discussed.

Thus NO CHRISTIAN can be OFF TOPIC, or accused of Hijacking this TOPIC.

I do however insist that we all refrain from letting a legitimate heated debate, elevate to the level of just plain ARGUING.

Most of us know the difference, for example: manifesting tempers, bitterness, hatred, name calling, etc. constitutes ARGUING. While fervantly standing up for one's Biblical Beliefs, in a heated discussion, is NOT ARGUING. ALWAYS KNOW AND RESPECT the right of everyone to simply agree to disagree during any discussion.

The only other rules that I request, are:
1. DEFINE the Terminolgies you use, because there certainly are Terminology Differences between Denominations.

2. PLEASE copy paste the verses and the Bible Translation you are referencing, to properly support your position. If you do not have a very good Bible Software program, here is a FREE one, that is EXCELLANT. Video Tutorials are under HELP on the menu bar. Plus there are over two hundred FREE books that can be added to the program, including the fairly new Holman's Christian Standard Bible (HCSB): https://www.wordsearchbible.com/basic

3. KEEP you posts short, and limit your questions to no more than two per post.
It far better and easier to answer a couple questions, than to have to contend with way too many questions in a single post to answer with just a single short post. For example, if you have dozen questions, split them up into 6 posts to the same person.

What do I hope we can accomplish with such a thread?

I hope and pray we can learn that we have FAR MORE IN COMMON, than we once thought; and learn to discuss topics we disagree on, without arguing.


Colossians 3:12-14 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,856
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#2
I will be interested to see how this thread goes.

I hope it will go as you want to it.

My experience is that it rarely does, egos get in the way.

Yes we have far more in common than we think. The biggest thing we have in common is that we believe that God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son so that whoever believes in him will not perish.

Those of us who have placed our faith in Jesus, that he is the son of God who died and rose again to reconcile us back to our Father have that in common.

We will have disagreements and as long as it doesn't detract from the doctrine of salvation then we need to learn to agree to disagree.

Mind you you there are differing thoughts concerning what constitutes salvation.

To me it's confessing with your mouth that Jesus is the son of God who died and rose again for my sin and I have made him Lord of my life AND I WANT TO BE LIKE HIM.

Another thing we have in common is that our Father loves us as much as he loves Jesus.
Lets try to be the same.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
36,228
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#3
. .
LightpurplefloralLove.jpg
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,986
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#6
I will be interested to see how this thread goes.

I hope it will go as you want to it.

My experience is that it rarely does, egos get in the way.

Yes we have far more in common than we think. The biggest thing we have in common is that we believe that God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son so that whoever believes in him will not perish.

Those of us who have placed our faith in Jesus, that he is the son of God who died and rose again to reconcile us back to our Father have that in common.

We will have disagreements and as long as it doesn't detract from the doctrine of salvation then we need to learn to agree to disagree.

Mind you you there are differing thoughts concerning what constitutes salvation.

To me it's confessing with your mouth that Jesus is the son of God who died and rose again for my sin and I have made him Lord of my life AND I WANT TO BE LIKE HIM.

Another thing we have in common is that our Father loves us as much as he loves Jesus.
Lets try to be the same.

Welcome, I am glad that the first reply mentions making Him or Receiving HIM as LORD, meaning MASTER. I believe that is a Critical point in Salvation, that far too many Churches overlook in this easy believism age of the TV evangelism. In fact, I personally think it is the difference between coming through the Narrow Gate, and coming through the Broad Easy Gate.

To give you a very brief glimpse of my Salvation Testimony, I used to think taking up space on a pew made me a Christian; but after failed marriage, of only six months, that ended with her demanding a divorce on Christmas Eve, I attempted suicide the following week 3 times, in 1977. Her excuse literally was, "You can't earn enough money to buy me what I want in life." After my third attempt something in my BROKE, and I think it was the pride of running my own life, my own way. Wave, after wave of guilt and mourning over my sinful lifestyle washed over me, as I uncontrollably wept and cried out to HIM, "Forgive me, forgive me! If you have a purpose for my life, you will have to come into my life and run it, because I can't do it. I am making a total mess of it."

Yes I knew that was a prayer of TOTAL surrender to Jesus as LORD and Master; even though no one in the Church I went to back then ever taught me to pray like that. Something else that I had from that very first moment on, was total TRUST that HE really would do something with my life, giving me the ability to do what I COULD NOT DO ON MY OWN. To keep this as short as I can, HE worked a series of minor miracles in my life, that included bringing a Godly woman into my life (she passed away 2 Nov, 2015), putting it on my heart to move from Nebraska to California (I am back in Nebraska now), and HE molded me into a tool He could use to start a Prison Ministry, in a brand new supermax prison being built at that time as the end of the line in the California Dept. of Corrections. It was all HIS DOINGS, not mine. I knew nothing about starting a Prison Ministry, but I KNEW HE KNEW EVERYTHING THERE WAS TO KNOW ABOUT IT, so I stepped out in faith and served HIM as a Volunteer Chaplain, with no Bible College, for 15 years.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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#7
Howdy Magenta, I figured you would be one of the first to come over here, because we agree on so many things. Welcome!

I even like the color of that frame, and especially the Biblical TRUTH printed in it. Believe it or not, I used to have a golf shirt that color.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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#8
It sure does. Love conquers all.

AMEN! And without LOVE, we are nothing but a BIG NOISE!

1 Corinthians 13:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] If I speak human or angelic languages but do not have love, I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,856
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#9
AMEN! And without LOVE, we are nothing but a BIG NOISE!

1 Corinthians 13:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] If I speak human or angelic languages but do not have love, I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
And a Pharisee
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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#10
Since we need a Subject to start on:

Do you Believe in Our Bridegroom Coming (perhaps soon), sending the Archangel ahead, to SHOUT and Call US out of earth to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, while those that remain on Earth experience the Great Tribulation?

I know that is a Controversial subject, but there is no time like the present to test the Love and Patience we are made of.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#11
The wedding and the harvest are all part and parcel of the same motif.

Christ is spoken of as having the winnowing fork in his hand by John the Baptist:

Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire

He's previously warned his hearers:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

It seems to me that there is an "audience" related connection between the harvest and the "wrath to come".

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

John's gospel helps us flesh out the timing and who is being harvested - "fields; for they are white already to harvest".

Mat 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Mat 9:38 KJV Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

I think we are well within reason to say the "labourers" were his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.

A slightly different view point of the tares and wheat:

Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
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Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

This is an obvious allusion to 1st century Jerusalem.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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#12
The literal Calling Out of the Bride of Christ to go the wedding of the Lamb, became a very important belief to me within a year or two after I was first born again that last week of Dec. 1977. I refuse to call it the Rapture any more, because of how the Cults started using the term with a distorted meaning. I take the Parable of Ten Virgins as a Literal Picture Prophecy of the Calling Out of the Bride and the Wedding of the Lamb. To avoid re-posting a Lengthy post that was the opening post to a Thread that I started July 9th, 2014, called THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb; I will just post the link here and invite anyone interested in reading it to just read the opening post: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/95283-calling-out-bride-go-wedding-lamb.html

Belief that the Calling Out of the Bride could happen at any time, and most likely will be the next major event in Prophecy to be fulfilled, is what keeps my LOVE for Jesus Christ burning red hot. I absolutely believe proof that it is an event that no one knows the day or the hour and that it will be prior to major events in Tribulation Period; lies in the wording of the following verse. Yes, I know some here will disagree, but I want to prove that serious Christians can agree to disagree on controversial subjects like this, while still showing love and respect for one another.


Matthew 25:13 (ESV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.


If that event was not PRIOR to the major events in the Tribulation Period, why was He telling His followers nearly two thousand years ago to Watch? If it was Mid-Trib or Post Trib, no one would have to WATCH, until the 7 year peace Treaty is signed with Israel, or the Third Temple is being built?


Daniel 9:27 (NIV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him".


I believe that verse is referring to the final Seven year Period, just before Christ comes back to set up HIS 1000 year Kingdom.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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#13
Okay, if there is not much interest in that first subject, here is another.


Matthew 16:18 (ESV)
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Does anyone else know that the word CHURCH is NOT in the Greek manuscripts?

So what did Jesus actually say then?


The actual Greek word was ASSEMBLY, but apparently because when they were Translating the first English Translation of the Bible, the English speaking Believers were already calling their Assembly "the Church"; the Translators therefore just substituted the word Church for the Literal Translation, ASSEMBLY.

<Quote>
Greek NASB Number: 1577


Greek Word: ἐκκλησία

Transliterated Word: [FONT=Gentium !important]ekklêsia[/FONT]
Root: from 1537 and 2564;

Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation:--


New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.<End Quote>

Hence, Young's Literal Translation got the literal translation correct:

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


I believe that is important, because it is the EXACT same Term as what HE called the congregation of True Believers in the Old Testament. That I think, is strong evidence that the Assembly HE is building began with ADAM, whereas, the non-Biblical term "Church" only refers to N.T. Believers.
 
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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#14
AMEN! And without LOVE, we are nothing but a BIG NOISE!

1 Corinthians 13:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] If I speak human or angelic languages but do not have love, I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
Amen! Also, long after faith and hope are no longer necessary in eternity with Lord, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. :)
 
Jan 27, 2013
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#15
without context ,all you will ever be is a clanging cymbal.

if you seek to ignore context , then you do not have a governing principle , all you have is a opinion.

for example

"23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."Matthew 16


Jesus and Peter
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."16 He said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go."19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, "Follow me."John 21




and two different context to love , telling someone that they are a hindrance to god , and encouragement .
 

willybob

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2017
1,064
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#16
Denominations is division in the body...The term means "to make a name for ourselves". "lets make a name for ourselves lest we be scattered" Gen 11... There are no denominations in the kingdom, Jesus is the only head, there are no other big shots in the bunch... and when fellow saints come together, any time, any place, wear 2 or more are gathered in His name/authority He is dwelling in the mist of them....In Paul's day they gathered around a full meal not a wine and cracker ceremony, and everyone had a word to speak, not among them was any flesh king pastor seeking preminence....the body shared fellowship and all participated and had a word to speak for the edification of the body...those who were elders gave themselves no titles, but rather servants for the purpose of guiding the new borns..hope this helps..
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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#17
Denominations is division in the body...The term means "to make a name for ourselves". "lets make a name for ourselves lest we be scattered" Gen 11... There are no denominations in the kingdom, Jesus is the only head, there are no other big shots in the bunch... and when fellow saints come together, any time, any place, wear 2 or more are gathered in His name/authority He is dwelling in the mist of them....In Paul's day they gathered around a full meal not a wine and cracker ceremony, and everyone had a word to speak, not among them was any flesh king pastor seeking preminence....the body shared fellowship and all participated and had a word to speak for the edification of the body...those who were elders gave themselves no titles, but rather servants for the purpose of guiding the new borns..hope this helps..
I attend a non-denominational conservative Evangelical type of Community Church, but I respect all of the mainline denominations as Churches that the LORD HIMSELF uses.

I agree that Denominational Titles probably are not necessary, and those titles can be a source of pride that causes problems. But Denominations became a way that we can be sure that we are obedient to these verses:


Romans 15:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Corinthians 1:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.


Now, within a Congregation, that is possible, but not across the board worldwide. God created us diverse, and diverse we will be, but GOD also HATES it, when one causes dissension or discord among the brethren. THEREFORE, GOD intends for us to GATHER with like-minded brethren, without becoming Denominational Bigots.


Romans 14:5-6 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.


As PROOF of Our LORD accepting the diversity that became our Denominations; I offer for example the SEVEN CHURCHES that Our Lord accepted as being HIS CHURCHES, in the first three Chapters of Revelation. EACH were diversely different, not only in TYPE, but also in how they functioned and the works they did; YET CHRIST RECOGNIZED ALL SEVEN TYPES. If one wants to get my "defend the brethren of another Denomination" hackles up, all they have to do is put down the Catholics. THEY CERTAINLY ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN TYPES OF CHURCHES THAT CHRIST RECOGNIZES. I literally can find all of the Statements in a typical Baptist Doctrinal Statement of Faith; are also present in the CATHOLIC CATECHISM. THAT IS A FACT! Yes from the pulpit, their teaching occasionally drifts from what their Catechism actually says; but be honest, have you not heard Protestant sermons that you did not agree totally with? I even heard a sermon by Baptist Missionary one time, who actually said the reason he served the LORD is because he wanted the biggest fanciest mansion on the Street of Gold.

I am quite sure the preaching styles of the Pastors of those Seven Churches of Revelation varied too; but that does not make any of those preaching styles WRONG. FOR EXAMPLE. A hell fire and brimstone style of preaching will turn my mind off, almost as quick as a light switch. HOWEVER, an expository style of teaching excites my mind and holds my interest for an hour or more. Does that make one wrong, and the other the right way according to GOD? NO! God created us diverse, therefore what appeals to one and edifies his understanding and growth spiritually, may not appeal to another. I know there are people who do even feel like they have even been to Church without the hell fire and brimstone preaching; but it is not my cup of tea. So Praise the LORD for Diversity!

I am sure when we get to heaven, we will all have a good laugh about the things we had a misunderstanding about.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,986
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#18
Denominations is division in the body...The term means "to make a name for ourselves". "lets make a name for ourselves lest we be scattered" Gen 11... There are no denominations in the kingdom, Jesus is the only head, there are no other big shots in the bunch... and when fellow saints come together, any time, any place, wear 2 or more are gathered in His name/authority He is dwelling in the mist of them....In Paul's day they gathered around a full meal not a wine and cracker ceremony, and everyone had a word to speak, not among them was any flesh king pastor seeking preminence....the body shared fellowship and all participated and had a word to speak for the edification of the body...those who were elders gave themselves no titles, but rather servants for the purpose of guiding the new borns..hope this helps..

Willybob, I am not picking on you, please understand that I totally believe we can agree to disagree, on any subject that has nothing to do with Salvation, the Deity of Christ, and the fact that the BIBLE is the WORD OF GOD; without jeopardizing our Love as Christian Brothers.

You are right about the regular love feasts, they certainly were part of the regular weekly services in Paul's day. I think it would be advantageous to Church and to the Community if we had a regular Pot Luck on Sundays, and the Community was invited too. If you study the History of the Corinthian Church, you will find that the Church was meeting in the house right next door to the Hebrew Synagogue. And they Jews were invited too. I am sure only a few showed up, but Praise the Lord for the FEW.

As far as no titles being used, what about Bishop, Deacon, and super Apostle?
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,986
4,075
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#19
Willybob, I am not picking on you, please understand that I totally believe we can agree to disagree, on any subject that has nothing to do with Salvation, the Deity of Christ, and the fact that the BIBLE is the WORD OF GOD; without jeopardizing our Love as Christian Brothers.

You are right about the regular love feasts, they certainly were part of the regular weekly services in Paul's day. I think it would be advantageous to Church and to the Community if we had a regular Pot Luck on Sundays, and the Community was invited too. If you study the History of the Corinthian Church, you will find that the Church was meeting in the house right next door to the Hebrew Synagogue. And they Jews were invited too. I am sure only a few showed up, but Praise the Lord for the FEW.

As far as no titles being used, what about Bishop, Deacon, and super Apostle?
That should read, "And the Jews were invited to the Love Feast too."
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,986
4,075
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#20
Okay, if there is not much interest in that first subject, here is another.


Matthew 16:18 (ESV)
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Does anyone else know that the word CHURCH is NOT in the Greek manuscripts?

So what did Jesus actually say then?


The actual Greek word was ASSEMBLY, but apparently because when they were Translating the first English Translation of the Bible, the English speaking Believers were already calling their Assembly "the Church"; the Translators therefore just substituted the word Church for the Literal Translation, ASSEMBLY.

<Quote>
Greek NASB Number: 1577


Greek Word: ἐκκλησία

Transliterated Word: [FONT=Gentium !important]ekklêsia[/FONT]
Root: from 1537 and 2564;

Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation:--


New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.<End Quote>

Hence, Young's Literal Translation got the literal translation correct:

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


I believe that is important, because it is the EXACT same Term as what HE called the congregation of True Believers in the Old Testament. That I think, is strong evidence that the Assembly HE is building began with ADAM, whereas, the non-Biblical term "Church" only refers to N.T. Believers.

Seeing that in reality, Jesus said He would build His ASSEMBLY; opens another question worthy of examining. When is the Birthday of the Church? I think most would agree, that it is the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came with a mighty wind and tongues of fire landing on their heads. Yes, later that same day, there were messages being taught in languages that the Disciples had never learned, correct right down to the correct accents of each hearer; but that was more of a fulfillment of Prophecy than a sign of the Birthday of the Church.

Isaiah 28:11 (NCV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So the LORD will use strange words and foreign languages to speak to these people.

Therefore if we want to pinpoint where the Birthday of the Church took place, we would probably all say, "In the upper room when the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost."

With all that in mind, let's look at another portion of Scripture that may now give us a better perspective of who all HE is talking about:

John 10:14-16 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I have
other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.


Since we know the Birthday of the Church is not until the Day of Pentecost after his Resurrection, I believe we should now reexamine who He was talking to and who actually is the other fold HE was referring to. I know most of us have always been taught that the two folds are Jews and Gentiles; however now it appears that would be incorrect. HE IS BUILDING HIS ASSEMBLY OF TRUE BELIEVERS. Are not the people He is talking to above the last of the O.T. ASSEMBLY of True Believers?

That would make the other fold the entire N.T. Assembly of True Believers; and that would also make both Assemblies, Co-equally THE ASSEMBLY HE IS BUILDING and co-equally the BRIDE of CHRIST.


Isaiah 62:5 (GW)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] As a young man marries a woman, so your sons will marry you. As a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so your God will rejoice over you.


If you think that cannot be, because the Faiths are different, then you certainly are looking at it from the wrong perspective.


The O.T. Assembly of True Believers believed GOD would send a Messiah to Save them from their sins.

The N.T. Assembly of True Believers believe God did send a Messiah to Save us from our sins.


THAT IS THE SAME FAITH, the Faith of Abraham.