Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

[Elin]

Here is my problem with the opinion that Acts 15 gives Christians commandments on food only to avoid offending Jews.

Acts 15
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

Ok, so here we are given commandments to abide by while we are first turning to God. They are commandments which deal with how to keep clean food from becoming unclean. What do you think would offend the Jewish population more?

Eating a clean animal which hasn't been properly prepared or eating something which God has said is an abomination to eat? Do you really think this passage is saying it is ok to eat swine as long as it is drained of all blood? The only way this makes sense is if it was well known that unclean foods were still not meant to be eaten.

Everything that lived and moved, including swine, was clean food (Ge 9:3) until the Mosaic law.

Clean and unclean applied only to the sacrifices until the Mosaic law.

When the Mosaic covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant (Heb 8:13), and the Levitical
priesthood was changed (Heb 7:11) to the priesthood of Melchizedek with a new eternal High Priest,
the Mosaic law, which depended on the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:12) for its administration,
was also set aside (Heb 7:18-19), including the law's establishment of unclean foods.

There are no unclean foods in the NT (Ro 14:14), just as there were none (Ge 9:3) before the Mosaic law.
The regulation was temporary to teach/show/pattern the meaning of spiritual uncleanness, which must be cleansed and is fulfilled in Christ, as are all the patterns, copies, shadows of the Mosaic law.

 

[Elin]

People in this thread keep saying that at the moment of Christ's resurrection, everything changed... Can you create that argument without
misunderstanding Paul? Or
do you only have one witness to support that theory?

Never thought of using a one witness "theory", very good.

And with good reason. . .

It is a misapplication regarding court law.

That law was given regarding proof of murder or crime in a court, not for the proof of everything.
It applies to nothing else.

"Do not go beyond what is written." (1Co 4:6)

 

[Elin]

Circumcision hasn't been abolished, but it no longer is a physical circumcision. Such works of the flesh will not save a person and trying to be saved by a physical circumcision or any physical work of charity or self inflicted punishment is a different gospel. A circumcision of the heart on the other hand is completely necessary for salvation and to be one of Abraham's spiritual descendants.

Circumcision of the heart cannot occur before the gift of faith by grace, which is salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Elin]

During the time of the apostles, early Christians would go to the synagogues to hear the laws of Moses taught.

What is your basis for this statement?

 

[Elin]

If Jesus taught that people could relax even one of the commandments, He would be considered least in the Kingdom of Heaven

You are failing to distinguish between Jesus old covenant instruction, under which he lived and conducted his ministry, and its meaning in the new covenant.

Yes, under the old covenant every commandment, even the least, had to be kept perfectly.

Under the new covenant, we learn that is impossible to do and, therefore, all are condemned because of its impossibility.
We learn that it is only through faith in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous, that it cannot ever be by law keeping.

Jesus taught us that all the law is fulfilled in two commandments only (Mt 22:37-40), not in all the myriad regulations.

God promised that in the new covenant he would write his law in our minds and on our hearts, by giving us to love.
One doesn't need a myriad of instructions on how to love when the Holy Spirit writes love on one's heart.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Do you think doing so is necessary for favor with God?

Before I answer this I will let you know, this is my view and I am not forcing it on you or any others. You asked me a quesiton, so I am answering and that's all.

For salvation, no. But after being saved I do believe we are to follow Torah as instructions for our lifestyle. Here is my explaination.

Look at it like this, Yeshua is the living word (meaning also Yeshua is the Torah), also in our walk we are called be holy (live a holy lifestyle, however you want to interpret it) and different than the world, we are also called to walk in the Spirit.
So if Yeshua is the living word, and through fullfillments Yeshua is the Torah, if we are walking in Yeshua/with Yeshua in the Spirit, wouldn't that also mean that we are walking in Torah?
I believe no matter what someone's belief is, if they're walking in the Spirt, the Spirit will guide them to Torah.
And that's just because the Torah is holy. Not only by God, but other people as well, the Torah is refferred to as holy throughout scripture.
So agian if Yeshua is holy, if the Spirit is holy, and if Torah is holy and if the Spirit is a guide for our walk in/with Yeshua, wouldn't that automatically lead to walking in Torah?

Now some people when they see that, and then think of how there is 613 commandments in Torah people start worrying.

I'll sum this part up I'd say (don't quote me on this), but probably about 70-80% (the percentage may be a little less than that) of those commandments either 1 require the temple or reffers to the Levitical priest hood, or 2 it is reffering for when you go an conquer land and take over another nation.

So unless you're a Levitical priest/working in around the temple (which doesn't exist right now), or you're planning a mass invasion somehwere, the majority of follwing Torah doesn't apply to you.

Most of Torah commandments are basic common sense if you're living a loving lifestyle.

So I wouldn't say I would be doing as far as to gain God's favor, but more so of being obedient to Him.

 

[Biblelogic01]

What is your basis for this statement?

Matthew 7:13-14
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because[SUP][a][/SUP] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[Biblelogic01]

^^^ I meant that in reply to something else.

 

[Biblelogic01]

You are failing to distinguish between Jesus old covenant instruction, under which he lived and conducted his ministry, and its meaning in the new covenant.

Yes, under the old covenant every commandment, even the least, had to be kept perfectly.

Under the new covenant, we learn that is impossible to do and, therefore, all are condemned because of its impossibility.
We learn that it is only through faith in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous, that it cannot ever be by law keeping.

Jesus taught us that all the law is fulfilled in two commandments only (Mt 22:37-40), not in all the myriad regulations.

God promised that in the new covenant he would write his law in our minds and on our hearts, by giving us to love.
One doesn't need a myriad of instructions on how to love when the Holy Spirit writes love on one's heart.

I apologize but by any chance to you listen to Joel Osteen?

 

[Biblelogic01]

And also it's not the "law of Moses", Moses didn't make it. So if there is a law of Moses, I wouldn't follow it because that means it was man-mad. There is the law of God which is Torah, which God gave to Moses, but I still have not found any scripture stating that it belonged to Moses. That is wrong terminology.

 

[Elin]

And also it's not the "law of Moses", Moses didn't make it. So if there is a law of Moses, I wouldn't follow it because that means it was man-mad. There is the law of God which is Torah, which God gave to Moses, but I still have not found any scripture stating that it belonged to Moses. That is wrong terminology.

It is terminology used by Jesus.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Still I concider it God's law because God wrote it, not Moses.

Anyway, let's take this on a different route.
How would you follow or live your lifestyle of following the commandments (which Yeshua pulled from Torah) of loving God and love your neighbor. How do you follow these things? How do you live that?

 

[Elin]

Do you think observing the Mosaic regulations are necessary for favor with God?

Before I answer this I will let you know, this is my view and I am not forcing it on you or any others. You asked me a quesiton, so I am answering and that's all.

For salvation, no. But after being saved I do believe we are to follow Torah as instructions for our lifestyle. Here is my explaination.

Look at it like this, Yeshua is the living word (meaning also Yeshua is the Torah),

No, neither the Son of God, nor God, are the Torah.

The Torah did not create.
Where do you find the Son of God is the Torah in Scripture?

So I wouldn't say I would be doing as far as to gain God's favor, but
more so of being obedient to Him.

Okay, but Jesus said we fulfill/accomplish the whole law in obedience to only two commandments
(Mt 22:37-40).

 

[Elin]

During the time of the apostles, early Christians would go to the synagogues to hear the laws of Moses taught.

What is your basis for Gentiles going to the synagogue to hear the laws of Moses?

Matthew 7:13-14
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because[SUP][a][/SUP] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

So, it is your assumption. . .

 

[Elin]

I apologize but by any chance to you listen to Joel Osteen?

No, I don't. . .am I missing something?

 

[Biblelogic01]

No, neither the Son of God, nor God, are the Torah.

The Torah did not create.
Where do you find the Son of God is the Torah in Scripture?


Okay, but Jesus said we fulfill/accomplish the whole law in obedience to only two commandments
(Mt 22:37-40).

Well again I ask the question.

How do you follow those 2 commandments, and live them?

Oh and on your answer you cannot use any of the commadments from Torah that would support your answer.

Example, you can't use give to charity or help a widow/orphan, etc.

Tell me 1 thing that shows love to God or a nieghbor that is not in the Torah.

 

[Elin]

It is terminology used by Jesus.

Still I concider it God's law because God wrote it, not Moses.

I don't consider myself wiser than Jesus.

Anyway, let's take this on a different route.
How would you follow or live your lifestyle of following the commandments (which Yeshua pulled from Torah) of loving God and love your neighbor. How do you follow these things? How do you live that?

The most important way to show love for your neighbor is praying for them.

Next would be kindness, friendliness, thoughtfulness, assisting them, in whatever way you are able, to do what they cannot do for themselves.

Loving God would be just that, loving him.
Loving him causes you to want to know him, to seek his face in his word, to love his will, his ways and his truth, to fellowship with him.

These are the things the Holy Spirit writes on one's heart, as God promised for the new covenant.

 

[Elin]

Well again I ask the question.

How do you follow those 2 commandments, and live them?

Oh and on your answer you cannot use any of the commadments from Torah that would support your answer.

Example, you can't use give to charity or help a widow/orphan, etc.

Tell me 1 thing that shows love to God or a nieghbor that is not in the Torah.

You'll have to take that up with the Holy Spirit.

What he puts in my mind and writes on my heart is not subject to that rule.

 

[Biblelogic01]

I don't consider myself wiser than Jesus.


The most important way to show love for your neighbor is praying for them.

Next would be kindness, friendliness, thoughtfulness, assisting them, in whatever way you are able, to do what they cannot do for themselves.

Loving God would be just that, loving him.
Loving him causes you to want to know him, to seek his face in his word, to love his will, his ways and his truth, to fellowship with him.

These are the things the Holy Spirit writes on one's heart, as God promised for the new covenant.

I don't disagree with any of those, but Torah show examples off all of those, and I never said I was wiser than Yeshua. I just state it's God's law, not Moses'. Yeshua is God therefor is Yeshua's law.

Anyway, here's a list of commandments from Torah. And I want you to tell me what is wrong with following this, and how following these is a burden.


To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1). See What Do Jews Believe?.
Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3) (CCN8). See What Do Jews Believe?.
Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).
To hallow G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCA5). See The Name of G-d.
Not to profane G-d's name (Lev . 22:32) (CCN155). See The Name of G-d.
To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4) (CCA2). See What Do Jews Believe?.
To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) (CCA3). See What Do Jews Believe?.
To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20) (CCA4).
Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16) (negative).
To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9) (CCA6).
To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18) (CCA60). See Love and Brotherhood.
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16) (CCN82). See Love and Brotherhood.
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17) (CCN48). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
Not to carry tales (Lev. 19:16) (CCN77). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17) (CCN78). See Love and Brotherhood.
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN80).
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN81).
Not to put any Jew to shame (Lev. 19:17) (CCN79).
Not to curse any other Israelite (Lev. 19:14) (by implication: if you may not curse those who cannot hear, you certainly may not curse those who can) (CCN45).
Not to give occasion to the simple-minded to stumble on the road (Lev. 19:14) (this includes doing anything that will cause another to sin) (CCN76).
To relieve a neighbor of his burden and help to unload his beast (Ex. 23:5) (CCA70). See Love and Brotherhood.
To assist in replacing the load upon a neighbor's beast (Deut. 22:4) (CCA71). See Love and Brotherhood.
Not to leave a beast, that has fallen down beneath its burden, unaided (Deut. 22:4) (CCN183). See Love and Brotherhood.
Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21) (CCN51).
Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22) (negative) (CCI6).
To leave the unreaped corner of the field or orchard for the poor (Lev. 19:9) (affirmative) (CCI1).
Not to gather gleanings (the ears that have fallen to the ground while reaping) (Lev. 19:9) (negative) (CCI7).
To leave the gleanings for the poor (Lev. 19:9) (affirmative) (CCI2).
Not to gather ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard (Lev. 19:10) (negative) (CCI8).
To leave ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10; Deut. 24:21) (affirmative) (CCI3).
Not to gather the peret (grapes) that have fallen to the ground (Lev. 19:10) (negative) (CCI9).
To leave peret (the single grapes) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10) (affirmative) (CCI4).
Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19) This applies to all fruit trees (Deut. 24:20) (negative) (CC10).
To leave the forgotten sheaves for the poor (Deut. 24:19-20) (affirmative) (CCI5).
Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man and giving him what he needs (Deut. 15:7) (CCN62). See Tzedakah: Charity.
To give charity according to one's means (Deut. 15:11) (CCA38). See Tzedakah: Charity.
Not to do wrong in buying or selling (Lev. 25:14) (CCN47).
Not to make a loan to an Israelite on interest (Lev. 25:37) (CCN54).


Obviously I copied and pasted them

But you can kind of sum all of those up with love and kindness

 

[Elin]

I don't disagree with any of those, but Torah show examples off all of those, and
I never said I was wiser than Yeshua. I just state it's God's law, not Moses'. Yeshua is God therefor is Yeshua's law.

Are you saying Jesus didn't know that when he called it the Law of Moses?

Anyway, here's a list of commandments from Torah. And I want you to tell me what is wrong with following this, and how following these is a burden.

That the law is a burden are the words of the apostles.

It is not my job to defend the apostles.
My job is to believe them.

But you can kind of sum all of those up with love and kindness

I can sum them up in two commandments just as Jesus did (Mt 22:37-40).