Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

[john832]

no, I am not saying you are condemned, Unless your basing your salvation on doing those things. then I would seriously question your salvation.

However, if those things are what you base your christian life on. then I feel sorry for you, because christian life and a relationship with God is not based on those things, it is based on taking the love God has given to you and serving others.

Some of us do not base salvation on how well we obey, we do know that salvation is a gift. I do believe that I should strive to obey because the transgression of the Law (sin), requires the blood of Christ. I don't take it as a light thing that when I sin, it cost Christ His life.

I do not believe that I am perfect or that obedience earns me anything, I do believe God wants me to obey Him for my good...

Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

 

[Dan_473]

Yeshua defeated death. Therefor the death require in Torah, for example breaking Sabbath or adultery, is no longer needed because Yeshua covered this.

(I'm not saying I believe in stoning, this is just an example)
On stoning someone, say someone committed adultery, according to Torah they are to be stone.
Well for that stoning to happen, 1 the only person who can authorize this is the High Priest/Levitical Priests. There are none of those around today, so already in that, a stoning cannot be held in todays society. 2 there has to be at least 2 witnesses, no witnesses no stoning. 3 you have which kind of goes back to the witness side of things, you have to have an accuser, if there is noone to accuse it, no stoning.

We can see this in the story when the Pharisees came to Yeshua with the adulterer and they asked Yeshua what to do with her. His reply, "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." Slowly one by one the Pharisees left, therefor noone is left to accuse, there are no more witnesses. Yeshua forgives her, and tells her to turn from her ways.

So yes their is death in Torah, but to follow the death side of Torah would be to no accept what Yeshua did when He came and died for us.


I hope that explains it I guess

thanks for the response! the 'those things' I was talking about were from post #19 here:

for example, what would be some non-legalistic ways to practice not cutting the edges of your beard, and putting tassels on your clothes?

 

[Dan_473]

A person can be a legalist and not follow all aspects of the law.

very true... can a person be a law keeper and not follow all aspects of the law?

 

[Biblelogic01]

no, I am not saying you are condemned, Unless your basing your salvation on doing those things. then I would seriously question your salvation.

However, if those things are what you base your christian life on. then I feel sorry for you, because christian life and a relationship with God is not based on those things, it is based on taking the love God has given to you and serving others.

Well to love others and love God are both commanded in the Torah which is what I follow as well. There are plenty of commandments on how to treat one another in a respectful and peaceful manner. One of the greatest commandments in the Torah is to love one another and to love God.
There are also commandments on how to serve others, some examples, not all of them:
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16)
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17)
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17)
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18)
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18)
To relieve a neighbor of his burden and help to unload his beast (Ex. 23:5)
To assist in replacing the load upon a neighbor's beast (Deut. 22:4)
Not to leave a beast, that has fallen down beneath its burden, unaided (Deut. 22:4)
Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21)
Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22)
To leave the unreaped corner of the field or orchard for the poor (Lev. 19:9)
Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19)
To leave the forgotten sheaves for the poor (Deut. 24:19-20)
Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man and giving him what he needs (Deut. 15:7)
To give charity according to one's means (Deut. 15:11)
To love the stranger (Deut. 10:19)
Not to wrong the stranger in speech (Ex. 22:20)
Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20)

So these are commandments (again not all of them) in Torah on how one should show love and be of service to others.
These are in the Torah and I follow these as well as a standard of living.
Which all of those commandments can be summed up with one word. LOVE.
That's why it is said that "to love God, and to love your neighbor sums up the Torah/law" (I apologise if that is not word for word).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well to love others and love God are both commanded in the Torah which is what I follow as well. There are plenty of commandments on how to treat one another in a respectful and peaceful manner. One of the greatest commandments in the Torah is to love one another and to love God.
There are also commandments on how to serve others, some examples, not all of them:
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16)
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17)
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17)
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18)
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18)
To relieve a neighbor of his burden and help to unload his beast (Ex. 23:5)
To assist in replacing the load upon a neighbor's beast (Deut. 22:4)
Not to leave a beast, that has fallen down beneath its burden, unaided (Deut. 22:4)
Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21)
Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22)
To leave the unreaped corner of the field or orchard for the poor (Lev. 19:9)
Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19)
To leave the forgotten sheaves for the poor (Deut. 24:19-20)
Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man and giving him what he needs (Deut. 15:7)
To give charity according to one's means (Deut. 15:11)
To love the stranger (Deut. 10:19)
Not to wrong the stranger in speech (Ex. 22:20)
Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20)

So these are commandments (again not all of them) in Torah on how one should show love and be of service to others.
These are in the Torah and I follow these as well as a standard of living.
Which all of those commandments can be summed up with one word. LOVE.
That's why it is said that "to love God, and to love your neighbor sums up the Torah/law" (I apologise if that is not word for word).

I am just saying that love covers alot more ground that what you just gave, those are some examples yes. But not even close to telling us all love will do.

And again, I was speaking of following feasts, traditions and other things, Not speaking of loving people.

I believe following traditions give people a false sense of security of what following God realy is, and that is why Paul warned so much against it in gal 3 and 4.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

very true... can a person be a law keeper and not follow all aspects of the law?

yes they can. Paul did it when he was saul. As did the pharisees.

in fact no man is sinless. only one has been sinless. so no one can keep the law in the way God demands.

God demands perfection. Not just a psuedo follower.

 

[Biblelogic01]

very true... can a person be a law keeper and not follow all aspects of the law?

No, but as you can see in my post to eternally-gratefull, I posted a list of laws that are summed up in 1 word and that word is love.

Now again the death side of the law you can is done away with but also not at the same time. Like I said in the post earlier, Yeshua defeated death and Yeshua was the sin sacrifices and His blood covers that, therfor no need for stoning, and then again with the stoning if it is to followed (which I don't think it is, again due to Yeshua), it would even be possible in today's society because there's no Levitical order for judging, and Yeshua is also the final judge.

I don't remember the exact spot or scripture, but it does state if you follow one law you must follow all, or there's no point. Along with that you're heart has to be in the right place.

For example: If I gripe and complain and I'm ungreatful about one of the laws, but I still follow that law, my heart is not in it therefor why am I doing it.

But again it comes back to what is said is of two of the most greatest commandments a, "To love one another, and to love God."

The law is often times described as something that is really hard to follow (I use to think this), but it's not. It's a lot more simple than what it sounds.

Now if someone out of nowhere decided to just jump in and follow it, it would become stressful.
Becoming Torah observant took patience and time. I didn't just jump into and say, "HERE WE GO!"
I started off with the little small things. Over a period of time it got to a point where it was just a life style and there were no burdens in it, because I could see Yeshua in it all.

To follow the law without Yeshua in it is also the same as just throwing it out the window. Yeshua is the law, He wrote it in our minds and on our hearts as a new covenant, so in that being said it's something that is in/on my heart and my mind.

King David, a man after God's heart, said he delighted in meditating in the Law day and night.

I'll stop here because I think I'm starting to ramble and get off point.

 

[john832]

I don't remember the exact spot or scripture, but it does state if you follow one law you must follow all, or there's no point. Along with that you're heart has to be in the right place.

Actually, it says that you must follow all the Laws. It says nothing about there being no point...

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What it says is that if you show respect to one over another, you are just as guilty as if you commit murder or adultery. Breaking any Law brings the death penalty and unless Christ's sacrifice is claimed and His blood covers this transgression, you receive eternal death...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Biblelogic01]

I am just saying that love covers alot more ground that what you just gave, those are some examples yes. But not even close to telling us all love will do.

And again, I was speaking of following feasts, traditions and other things, Not speaking of loving people.

I believe following traditions give people a false sense of security of what following God realy is, and that is why Paul warned so much against it in gal 3 and 4.

Well on the feasts, it's not a blind thing that I do. You can see Yeshua in all the Feasts, and that's what I based following them off of.

Passover: Yeshua is the Passover lamb that covers our sins.
Unleavened bread: Leavening is symbolic with sin, therefor bread without leaven is Yeshua because He is sinless.
First Fruits: Yeshua brought the first fruits into Heaven when He rose again, and also in this all the first fruits of a crop go to Him.
Feast of Weeks (Pentecost): This is the day the God gave Moses the Torah, also it's the day Yeshua/God gave us the Holy Spirit.
Feast of Trumpets: Yeshua is going to return at the blast of a trumpet.
Yom Kippur (Day atoneme/judgement): Yeshua will be the final judge in the end times.
Feast of Tabernacles: We will dwell with Yeshua in His kingdom when He returns.


So if I kept these feast without that view on them, then yes I can see where you are coming.

 

[Dan_473]

yes they can. Paul did it when he was saul. As did the pharisees.

in fact no man is sinless. only one has been sinless. so no one can keep the law in the way God demands.

God demands perfection. Not just a psuedo follower.

very true! now, would you call someone a law keeper who didn't make a good attempt to follow all aspects of the law?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

very true! now, would you call someone a law keeper who didn't make a good attempt to follow all aspects of the law?

one who tries and bases their spirituality on following traditions of the law (whether it is all or not) is a lawkeeper.

Thats what Paul called them. the people he spoke to in Galations was not going back to sacrificing animals and temple sacrifices, yet they were considered trying to follow the law.

 

[Dan_473]

No, but as you can see in my post to eternally-gratefull, I posted a list of laws that are summed up in 1 word and that word is love.

Now again the death side of the law you can is done away with but also not at the same time. Like I said in the post earlier, Yeshua defeated death and Yeshua was the sin sacrifices and His blood covers that, therfor no need for stoning, and then again with the stoning if it is to followed (which I don't think it is, again due to Yeshua), it would even be possible in today's society because there's no Levitical order for judging, and Yeshua is also the final judge.

I don't remember the exact spot or scripture, but it does state if you follow one law you must follow all, or there's no point. Along with that you're heart has to be in the right place.

For example: If I gripe and complain and I'm ungreatful about one of the laws, but I still follow that law, my heart is not in it therefor why am I doing it.

But again it comes back to what is said is of two of the most greatest commandments a, "To love one another, and to love God."

The law is often times described as something that is really hard to follow (I use to think this), but it's not. It's a lot more simple than what it sounds.

Now if someone out of nowhere decided to just jump in and follow it, it would become stressful.
Becoming Torah observant took patience and time. I didn't just jump into and say, "HERE WE GO!"
I started off with the little small things. Over a period of time it got to a point where it was just a life style and there were no burdens in it, because I could see Yeshua in it all.

To follow the law without Yeshua in it is also the same as just throwing it out the window. Yeshua is the law, He wrote it in our minds and on our hearts as a new covenant, so in that being said it's something that is in/on my heart and my mind.

King David, a man after God's heart, said he delighted in meditating in the Law day and night.

I'll stop here because I think I'm starting to ramble and get off point.

ok, so back to this idea,

in my experience, it's not to hard to find agreement on the theory of law keeping... the differences come in how to put it into practice...

for example, what would be some non-legalistic ways to practice not cutting the edges of your beard, and putting tassels on your clothes?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well on the feasts, it's not a blind thing that I do. You can see Yeshua in all the Feasts, and that's what I based following them off of.

Passover: Yeshua is the Passover lamb that covers our sins.
Unleavened bread: Leavening is symbolic with sin, therefor bread without leaven is Yeshua because He is sinless.
First Fruits: Yeshua brought the first fruits into Heaven when He rose again, and also in this all the first fruits of a crop go to Him.
Feast of Weeks (Pentecost): This is the day the God gave Moses the Torah, also it's the day Yeshua/God gave us the Holy Spirit.
Feast of Trumpets: Yeshua is going to return at the blast of a trumpet.
Yom Kippur (Day atoneme/judgement): Yeshua will be the final judge in the end times.
Feast of Tabernacles: We will dwell with Yeshua in His kingdom when He returns.


So if I kept these feast without that view on them, then yes I can see where you are coming.

how are keeping those feasts serving others in love?

 

[Biblelogic01]

thanks for the response! the 'those things' I was talking about were from post #19 here:

As a Torah observer I'll be honost, for the years of observance I still do not know what the "cutting the edges of the beard" means. So I just keep a nice simple beard, and I don't chastise people who don't grow them. So I don't what a legalistic way of following that would be.

If you read the verse on the tassels they are basically a reminder of the commandments, kind of like if someone wore a WWJD bracelet.

Again with both of these, I'm not fully sure what a legalistic idea on them would be other than if someone asks about them if you chastise them for it. People ask me about my tassels all the time, and I tell them what they are and leave it at that. There have been times where the tassel has lead to discussion in my faith which lead to me leading someone to Christ.

Now did I tell this person to go out and put tassels on?
No.
I told them that there needs to be the acceptance of Yeshua in their heart, wearing the tassels does not give you salvation nor does it make them better.
I tell them to study the word.
Now if that person goes to a point where they think wearing tassels is something they want to do, so be it.
If not, well then ok. It's not my call.
I'm not going to force it on someone.

Also do I wear them so people will ask what they are?
No, I wear them because it says in Numbers 15:37-41, "[SUP]37 [/SUP]Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, [SUP]38 [/SUP]“Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the Lord and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined, [SUP]40 [/SUP]and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God. [SUP]41 [/SUP]I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the Lord your God.”

So wearing the tassels is more of a reminder of what the Lord did for me/us in both physical Egypt and spiritual Egypt, and a reminder of the commandments that were given and the Holy Spirit that was given.

It means nothing more than that.

 

[just-me]

A physical beard is a dust collector that is necessary for proper breathing in a dusty environment. I grew a full beard when I worked full time as a machinist. It was healthy. I no longer grow a full beard because I am retired. Spiritually I still grow one because it filters my intake, breathing in my environment and discerning motivational spirits whether they be of God or another entity. It helps for spiritual health and understanding.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

The law is Spiritual holy, just and good. Seems as if the carnal mind rejects these things and labels them as legalistic if a beard or other things are seen in the flesh (outwardly).

Romans 8:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

 

[Dan_473]

one who tries and bases their spirituality on following traditions of the law (whether it is all or not) is a lawkeeper.

Thats what Paul called them. the people he spoke to in Galations was not going back to sacrificing animals and temple sacrifices, yet they were considered trying to follow the law.

right!

now, I don't base being right with God on, say, the two commandments love God and love neighbor... but I do attempt to follow them... I don't really attempt to follow others... what word would apply to me?

there are folks here who, again, don't base being right with God on keeping the commandments, but try to keep a lot more commandments than I do... maybe not working on the sabbath... but they don't try to keep them all... I've never seen a christian do the beard and tassel thing... what word for them?

I have seen Jewish people attempt to keep all that is possible... including the beard and tassel stuff... what word for them?

nice discussion, btw...

 

[Biblelogic01]

how are keeping those feasts serving others in love?

I'm confused on what you would be refrencing on?

Love sums up the majority of the commandments. Not all of them. These are just appointed times that we come together and observe as reminders of what happenned/what is to happen. The fact that Yeshua is in them is what makes it correct. I don't once Yeshua condemn doing this, at all.

I'll take the word of Yeshua over the word of Paul.
Not saying Paul is a bad guy or anything, he has a lot of valid points, but Paul is not God nor is he Yeshua.
Not saying I don't read Paul or try to understand him, I'm just saying I base my walk off of what Yeshua has stated.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

right!

now, I don't base being right with God on, say, the two commandments love God and love neighbor... but I do attempt to follow them... I don't really attempt to follow others... what word would apply to me?

there are folks here who, again, don't base being right with God on keeping the commandments, but try to keep a lot more commandments than I do... maybe not working on the sabbath... but they don't try to keep them all... I've never seen a christian do the beard and tassel thing... what word for them?

I have seen Jewish people attempt to keep all that is possible... including the beard and tassel stuff... what word for them?

nice discussion, btw...

again, I think one must ask themselves.

Am I doing this to benefit myself. or is what I am doing benefiting others.

if it is not the second then it is what many would term legalism, and what I feel paul was speaking against, especially in gal 4.

I would not judge someone for growing a beard, I have a gotee,

But if they are doing it because of following some tradition or law. then how is that loving others and not serving self? thats the danger of legalism.

 

[john832]

As a Torah observer I'll be honost, for the years of observance I still do not know what the "cutting the edges of the beard" means. So I just keep a nice simple beard, and I don't chastise people who don't grow them. So I don't what a legalistic way of following that would be.

Do a little research. Rounding the corners of your head had to do with shaving a circle on your head in honor of Ra the sun god. Marring the corners of your beard meant trimming it in a way the pagan priests of the surrounding nations did in honor of their gods.

It had nothing to do with personal grooming unless you were grooming for foreign gods.

 

[Dan_473]

...I just keep a nice simple beard...
If you read the verse on the tassels they are basically a reminder of the commandments, kind of like if someone wore a WWJD bracelet.

so, non-legalistic ways of keeping the commandments are pretty loose... do what feels right... a WWJD bracelet... in that sense virtually every christian is keeping all of the commandments... be clean, avoid idols...


the above might sound mocking, and I don't mean it that way at all... I think it's cool... it's just, why talk about law keeping when everyone's already doing it?